Terminating trains at platform 6 at Sheffield

[Fishandbananas]

I recall reading somewhere that it's rare for trains to terminate at platform 6 at Sheffield due to the signal arrangement. Today the 19:48 from Manchester Piccadilly (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:S57213/2024-08-26/detailed#allox_id=0), though RTT says otherwise. (I was there so it was definitely on platform 6)

Just wondering how common of a move this is and what procedure allow it to happen.

(This happened due to a signal failure north of Sheffield which meant platform 5 was still occupied by an XC train)

 

[GardenRail]

We can only use 6 to terminate trains from the South in an emergency. This is because the main aspect signal can only give a Position Light and not a main aspect single yellow. Not sure if you know about signalling as such, but there is no main aspect at the North of 6, like there is on 8 for example, and that's basically why passenger trains cannot use 6 in the North bound direction.

If we do, do it, we have to speak to the driver first, to tell them the crack.

 

[ricoblade]

Thanks for clearing up it's from the south as my 07:21 Northern from Donaster to Sheffield (originates at Hull) often terminates on 6 (and 5 and 4 and 3...)

 

[Kneedown]

but there is no main aspect at the North of 6, like there is on 8 for example,

Do you mean P1 to 5?
S139 (North end of P8) is a fixed red main aspect isn't it?
The only proceed signal there is a position light for the "Wall Side" move towards Nunnery.

 

[edwin_m]

Do you mean P1 to 5?
S139 (North end of P8) is a fixed red main aspect isn't it?
The only proceed signal there is a position light for the "Wall Side" move towards Nunnery.

A main aspect can read up to a fixed red, so a northbound move into P8 would not have the restriction being discussed for P6.

 

[GingerSte]

We can only use 6 to terminate trains from the South in an emergency. This is because the main aspect signal can only give a Position Light and not a main aspect single yellow. Not sure if you know about signalling as such, but there is no main aspect at the North of 6, like there is on 8 for example, and that's basically why passenger trains cannot use 6 in the North bound direction.

If we do, do it, we have to speak to the driver first, to tell them the crack.

Many thanks for your response. Is there any reason why it was designed that way? (Just wondering.)

 

[GardenRail]

Do you mean P1 to 5?
S139 (North end of P8) is a fixed red main aspect isn't it?
The only proceed signal there is a position light for the "Wall Side" move towards Nunnery.

But still a main aspect nonetheless, which allows another main aspect to clear up to it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2024 ==

Many thanks for your response. Is there any reason why it was designed that way? (Just wondering.)

In a word, no. We've been told for the last 20 years that we will get a main aspect at the North of 6, still waiting.....

 

[Fishandbananas]

Thanks for the info. Definitely interesting watching a train pull into P6 from the south then!
Got a video of it which is also nice

 

[Class 170101]

Many thanks for your response. Is there any reason why it was designed that way? (Just wondering.)

I would also wonder why the inconsistency of a fixed red on Country End of Platform 8 but a Position Light Signal on Country End of 6?

Interestingly of course when the freight train was derailed last year (or year before maybe?) both Platforms 6 and 8 were used to head north to Nunnery Jn

 

[zwk500]

I would also wonder why the inconsistency of a fixed red on Country End of Platform 8 but a Position Light Signal on Country End of 6?

I wouldn't be surprised if the dreaded 'Minimum Viable Product' came into that answer...

 

[43066]

But still a main aspect nonetheless, which allows another main aspect to clear up to it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2024 ==


In a word, no. We've been told for the last 20 years that we will get a main aspect at the North of 6, still waiting.....

If I may slightly hijack this thread (albeit still talking about Sheffield station!) you might be able to clarify the P1 issue I experienced at Sheffield both yesterday, and a few weeks ago, where I was run into the north end of P1 to terminate and head back south. Upon changing ends the mid platform signal (112) had already cleared to a single yellow, with a “1” on the theatre box, with the south end platform starter (101) remaining red.

Last time I accepted being dispatched against the single yellow, and ended up rolling along the platform towards the red, which thankfully cleared on approach. I’d already confirmed with platform staff and TM that they’d need to re-dispatch me if I had to stop, but clearly that’s not an ideal situation.

The same thing happened today when I was with my trainee, so I thought I’d do the proper thing and query it. The signaller told me 112 was cleared by ARS as soon as we’d entered the platform 1B track circuit, and that she couldn’t release 101 to allow me to depart on two proceed aspects as doing so would suppress the TRTS from the platform (and I guess lock the route until after I’d departed). However she told me she could put 112 back to danger and would then be able clear both 112 and 101 when she received the TRTS. That duly worked fine and we left with greens on both and a clear road out of the platform.

Any idea what the issue is? I assume it’s some kind of track circuit fault? Or is it simply ARS having done something that then can’t be undone without locking out the route out of the platform?

 

[GardenRail]

If I may slightly hijack this thread (albeit still talking about Sheffield station!) you might be able to clarify the P1 issue I experienced at Sheffield both yesterday, and a few weeks ago, where I was run into the north end of P1 to terminate and head back south. Upon changing ends the mid platform signal (112) had already cleared to a single yellow, with a “1” on the theatre box, with the south end platform starter (101) remaining red.

Last time I accepted being dispatched against the single yellow, and ended up rolling along the platform towards the red, which thankfully cleared on approach. I’d already confirmed with platform staff and TM that they’d need to re-dispatch me if I had to stop, but clearly that’s not an ideal situation.

The same thing happened today when I was with my trainee, so I thought I’d do the proper thing and query it. The signaller told me 112 was cleared by ARS as soon as we’d entered the platform 1B track circuit, and that she couldn’t release 101 to allow me to depart on two proceed aspects as doing so would suppress the TRTS from the platform (and I guess lock the route until after I’d departed). However she told me she could put 112 back to danger and would then be able clear both 112 and 101 when she received the TRTS. That duly worked fine and we left with greens on both and a clear road out of the platform.

Any idea what the issue is? I assume it’s some kind of track circuit fault? Or is it simply ARS having done something that then can’t be undone without locking out the route out of the platform?

There's no issue from the signalling side. Yes ARS does sometimes clear the signal back out, and it's not ideal, but it is a main aspect proceed, and we are allowed to do it, often to clear 1b for a service to arrive from the North. You see, there's no overlaps on the signalling within station limits, if we run you up to s101, the rear of your train could be flat level with s116, but we can get a train then, into 1b from the north on a single yellow. Whether you take that signal or not, well that's up to you. It works the other way too for Northern services, who leave 1a, but we can't get them out at the North end. It's all very normal at Sheffield. Sometimes we will depart you on a single yellow out of 5, into B tunnel, so that we can clear 5 and let a train leave 6 behind you. From a signalling point of view, all very normal in a tight congested station, not ideal, but it's not an irregular sequence too. To put it simply, there's not other options a lot of the time. Not ideal, BUT, between you, your crews route knowledge, and proper signalling sequences, there's not really a problem.
It's not a new thing, and certainly what you describe has been standard for my 20 years signalling trains at Sheffield. It's ages old, but maybe ask your managers for a visit to York ROC, it makes sense more when you can see the signalling how we do. I hope I've explained it ok, I'm better at showing than explaining on here.

 

[LowLevel]

There's no issue from the signalling side. Yes ARS does sometimes clear the signal back out, and it's not ideal, but it is a main aspect proceed, and we are allowed to do it, often to clear 1b for a service to arrive from the North. Whether you take that signal or not, well that's up to you. It works the other way too for Northern services, who leave 1a, but we can't get them out at the North end. It's all very normal at Sheffield. Sometimes we will depart you on a single yellow out of 5, into B tunnel, so that we can clear 5 and let a train leave 6 behind you. From a signalling point of view, all very normal in a tight congested station, not ideal, but it's not an irregular sequence too. To put it simply, there's not other options a lot of the time. Not ideal, BUT, between you, your crews route knowledge, and proper signalling sequences, there's not really a problem.
It's not a new thing, and certainly what you describe has been standard for my 20 years signalling trains at Sheffield. It's ages old, but maybe ask your managers for a visit to York ROC, it makes sense more when you can see the signalling how we do.

The main problem is when the 1A up starter then doesn't clear and you end up sat in the platform for several minutes with the guard having to be keyed in their panel, the platform staff unable to leave to do anything else, and punters running up and banging the doors not understanding why they can't get on and causing a safety hazard.

In plenty of locations it is specifically banned to dispatch the train on mid platform signals until you've got main aspects out of the platform for this reason.

 

[GardenRail]

The main problem is when the 1A up starter then doesn't clear and you end up sat in the platform for several minutes with the guard having to be keyed in their panel, the platform staff unable to leave to do anything else, and punters running up and banging the doors not understanding why they can't get on and causing a safety hazard.

In plenty of locations it is specifically banned to dispatch the train on mid platform signals until you've got main aspects out of the platform for this reason.

Well I'm sorry, that's beyond my remit. I'm just a Signaller for the Sheffield area, and we do what we are allowed to do, within the Rules, and Signal Box Special Instructions. I'm not here to debate it. The Signalling system at Sheffield has remained, and been worked generally the same, since the days of Sheffield PSB in the 70s. This is not a new scenario.

If we could not use single yellows for departures, the timetable would collapse at Sheffield. I mean, it barely works as it is, trust me.

 

[LowLevel]

Well I'm sorry, that's beyond my remit. I'm just a Signaller for the Sheffield area, and we do what we are allowed to do, within the Rules, and Signal Box Special Instructions. I'm not here to debate it. The Signalling system at Sheffield has remained, and been worked generally the same, since the days of Sheffield PSB in the 70s. This is not a new scenario.

If we could not use single yellows for departures, the timetable would collapse at Sheffield. I mean, it barely works as it is, trust me.

I believe it's a case of modern problems afflicting an old system, as the focus on things like dispatch methods has changed significantly even in the last 10 years. The only reason I mentioned it is that the driver above did, and I've heard a few reports of late about passengers verbally assaulting the station staff for not being able to board trains which have only shuffled a hundred metres or so and then sat there for several minutes with the doors locked.

These days it'll only take a few reports before someone in a TOC safety section declares they're not doing something anymore. See: Grantham platform 3 being closed on the platform 2 side after 50 odd years of Doncaster PSB happily putting longer trains into it after LNER said "no, not happening any more" one Monday morning.

 

[GardenRail]

I believe it's a case of modern problems afflicting an old system, as the focus on things like dispatch methods has changed significantly even in the last 10 years. The only reason I mentioned it is that the driver above did, and I've heard a few reports of late about passengers verbally assaulting the station staff for not being able to board trains which have only shuffled a hundred metres or so and then sat there for several minutes with the doors locked.

These days it'll only take a few reports before someone in a TOC safety section declares they're not doing something anymore. See: Grantham platform 3 being closed on the platform 2 side after 50 odd years of Doncaster PSB happily putting longer trains into it after LNER said "no, not happening any more" one Monday morning.

It's going to take a massive resignalling scheme to sort Sheffield out.

From a Signaller point of view, it's amazing. Lots of get outs, different routing options, no overlaps. It's really really flexible. But it's all designed for locomotive haulage.

Luckily, nobody is interested in Sheffield, it's not on the East or West Coast mainline, so won't see any serious money spent on it in my last 20 years.


We might get a main aspect at the North of 6 within 10 years......

 

[43066]

There's no issue from the signalling side. Yes ARS does sometimes clear the signal back out, and it's not ideal, but it is a main aspect proceed, and we are allowed to do it, often to clear 1b for a service to arrive from the North. You see, there's no overlaps on the signalling within station limits, if we run you up to s101, the rear of your train could be flat level with s112, but we can get a train then, into 1b from the north on a single yellow. Whether you take that signal or not, well that's up to you. It works the other way too for Northern services, who leave 1a, but we can't get them out at the North end. It's all very normal at Sheffield. Sometimes we will depart you on a single yellow out of 5, into B tunnel, so that we can clear 5 and let a train leave 6 behind you. From a signalling point of view, all very normal in a tight congested station, not ideal, but it's not an irregular sequence too. To put it simply, there's not other options a lot of the time. Not ideal, BUT, between you, your crews route knowledge, and proper signalling sequences, there's not really a problem.
It's not a new thing, and certainly what you describe has been standard for my 20 years signalling trains at Sheffield. It's ages old, but maybe ask your managers for a visit to York ROC, it makes sense more when you can see the signalling how we do. I hope I've explained it ok, I'm better at showing than explaining on here.

Brilliant, thanks for the explanation.

So presumably TRTS isn’t suppressed as such, it just can’t operate when both platform signals are showing proceed, which is logical enough.

In future I’ll ring up the box and request to leave when we have both signals clear to avoid the issue @LowLevel mentions.

 

[GardenRail]

Brilliant, thanks for the explanation.

So presumably TRTS isn’t suppressed as such, it just can’t operate when both platform signals are showing proceed, which is logical enough.

In future I’ll ring up the box and request to leave when we have both signals clear to avoid the issue @LowLevel mentions.

Out of interest, would you be ok with a single yellow into the through line adjacent 1a?

 

[43066]

Out of interest, would you be ok with a single yellow into the through line adjacent 1a?

I don’t see why not. It would be the opposite of the move we make when we come into 1B from the south when 1A is occupied. It would also remove the risk of the train sitting in the platform.

 

[GardenRail]

I don’t see why not. It would be the opposite of the move we make when we come into 1B from the south when 1A is occupied. It would also remove the risk of the train sitting in the platform.

And that's one of the quirks of our Box Instructions. We are not allowed to stand a passenger train on the through line at S113 to await 1b. But we can stand you on the through line when departing, at S102.

 

[Tester]

I don’t see why not. It would be the opposite of the move we make when we come into 1B from the south when 1A is occupied. It would also remove the risk of the train sitting in the platform.

Now isn't this a classic example of the benefit of this forum.

Can we have some massively inflated consultancy fees from 'the railway'?

 

[Tomnick]

Well I'm sorry, that's beyond my remit. I'm just a Signaller for the Sheffield area, and we do what we are allowed to do, within the Rules, and Signal Box Special Instructions. I'm not here to debate it. The Signalling system at Sheffield has remained, and been worked generally the same, since the days of Sheffield PSB in the 70s. This is not a new scenario.

If we could not use single yellows for departures, the timetable would collapse at Sheffield. I mean, it barely works as it is, trust me.

Worth clarifying the distinction between leaving on a single yellow from, e.g., platform 5 (on B line to wait for another to go first from 6), and on having a single yellow at 116 to drop up to 101 within the length of the same platform. I know some drivers have complained about the former on occasions, but that's not what this is about and I have no problem with that when it happens. It's a perfectly regular move. It's the specific and very significant risk posed by stopping a train at 101 after it's been dispatched from 116 - I know it's legitimate and not prohibitied by SBSIs and local instructions, but it really makes me feel uncomfortable as a driver.

Out of interest, would you be ok with a single yellow into the through line adjacent 1a?

In some cases, I think this could be even worse, if the train is long enough that the rear would still be against the platform face, or close to it at the north end of the crossover (anything longer than 4, at a guess). You still have the same risk of punters wanting to board, but now you don't have the option of re-releasing the doors if the situation starts to get out of control.

I believe it's a case of modern problems afflicting an old system, as the focus on things like dispatch methods has changed significantly even in the last 10 years. The only reason I mentioned it is that the driver above did, and I've heard a few reports of late about passengers verbally assaulting the station staff for not being able to board trains which have only shuffled a hundred metres or so and then sat there for several minutes with the doors locked.

These days it'll only take a few reports before someone in a TOC safety section declares they're not doing something anymore. See: Grantham platform 3 being closed on the platform 2 side after 50 odd years of Doncaster PSB happily putting longer trains into it after LNER said "no, not happening any more" one Monday morning.

Ah, Grantham. The big concern now is that the operational length of the platform in the Sectional Appendix (the definitive source as far as operating staff are concerned...) doesn't match the reality of it only being able to accommodate a 2-car. There's a few noises at the moment about a similar discrepancy arising at Sheffield (in terms of platform lengths). @GardenRail will love that one...

And that's one of the quirks of our Box Instructions. We are not allowed to stand a passenger train on the through line at S113 to await 1b. But we can stand you on the through line when departing, at S102.

If I had to guess, I'd suggest that this is because a train going into the through line from the south passes very close to the physical platform face at the very south end of platform 1 (S101 signal is set back from the end of the platform by quite a few metres), so a train detained at S113 for any period of time could lead to a risk of egress handles being pulled by passengers at the door or two that might appear to be platformed?

 

[_toommm_]

Had anyone got a numbered signal map of Sheffield? I think I'm pretty familiar with the station and its quirks from an enthusiast POV, but the signal numbers on some of this are throwing me off.

 

[OxtedL]

Live map of Wingfield Tunnel to Barnsley and Barrow Hill

See trains move in real-time on our live map of Wingfield Tunnel to Barnsley and Barrow Hill

www.opentraintimes.com

OpenTrainTimes looks quite useful for signal numbers.

 

[Haywain]

We can only use 6 to terminate trains from the South in an emergency.

I'm curious about this, as I feel sure that it used to be the normal arrival platform for terminating trains arriving from St Pancras in Midland Mainline days. Is my memory playing tricks?

 

[Twingo37175]

I'm curious about this, as I feel sure that it used to be the normal arrival platform for terminating trains arriving from St Pancras in Midland Mainline days. Is my memory playing tricks?

As I recall, the HST's came into platform 5 (and sometimes 8). In addition, 1 and 2 were used later in the day for those going onwards to Leeds.

 

[GardenRail]

I'm curious about this, as I feel sure that it used to be the normal arrival platform for terminating trains arriving from St Pancras in Midland Mainline days. Is my memory playing tricks?

I can only answer for my time at Sheffield, from 2005, and it's never been the case.

 

[Haywain]

As I recall, the HST's came into platform 5 (and sometimes 8).

Maybe it's 8 I'm thinking of - it was definitely that island.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2024 ==

I can only answer for my time at Sheffield, from 2005, and it's never been the case.

Yes, you're too much of a newcomer!

 

[Donny Dave]

Some of the regulating decisions in and around Sheffield in the past have been questionable, bur I didn't realise some of the complexities and local instructions around those decisions. Thank you @GardenRail for giving an explanation and insight into the signalling at Sheffield.

 

[_toommm_]

Live map of Wingfield Tunnel to Barnsley and Barrow Hill

See trains move in real-time on our live map of Wingfield Tunnel to Barnsley and Barrow Hill

www.opentraintimes.com

OpenTrainTimes looks quite useful for signal numbers.

Thanks - forgot about OTT