Seat reservation mystery

[swaldman]

Can anybody explain why requesting a table seat when booking results in me being assigned an airline seat, even though there are multiple unreserved tables in the same coach?

Scotrail HST booked on Scotrail's website, if it makes a difference.

 

[TUC]

Or indeed, in the case of my wife and I, why a request for two airline seats (for a Cross Country service in late September, so unlikely to be heavily booked as yet) results in two seats in different rows, one behind the other, rather than side by side?

 

[Toby268]

You can request what you like, but if every table seat is already reserved it will give you what is left. Table seats and window seats are the most popular so are going to go first

 

[Segedunum]

There are genuinely some seats which seem to get ignored whenever you select by preference. Even when I used to issue tickets to customers via STAR - the preferences option could be just as temperamental.

I had a list memorised of different seat numbers to manually try whenever I couldn't get the desired seat type otherwise - 99% of the time they'd be available.

 

[swaldman]

You can request what you like, but if every table seat is already reserved it will give you what is left. Table seats and window seats are the most popular so are going to go first

*applause* that was nearly a good answer. Would you like to read my original post and try again?

 

[janb]

Or indeed, in the case of my wife and I, why a request for two airline seats (for a Cross Country service in late September, so unlikely to be heavily booked as yet) results in two seats in different rows, one behind the other, rather than side by side?

Another one that seems quite common on CrossCountry and TPE in particular is that it likes to give you 2 aisle seats across the aisle from each other rather than a window/aisle pair even when putting in no preferences. Being in a ticket office you can keep booking and sometimes on 2nd or 3rd go it gives something sensible, or start putting in specific seat numbers which work which prove it was a logic issue rather than an availability one to start with.

 

[Adam Williams]

I can reproduce this behaviour for a service on 5th September. I think it's a bug in Trainline's system, somehow.

If I make my own attempt using Raileasy's software and ask the broker for a TABL (same ticket type code, route code, discount status etc), I get one successfully:



Trainline/SR seem to allocate me a seat without any attributes set despite me asking for a table seat. I suspect they're doing something silly.

 

[swaldman]

Huh, thanks all. Good to know I'm not crazy, though sad to hear that there isn't a fix (apart from using Raileasy, which I often can't for other reasons).
I shall continue sprinting to be early on the train to secure a table despite my reservation...

 

[CyrusWuff]

There are genuinely some seats which seem to get ignored whenever you select by preference. Even when I used to issue tickets to customers via STAR - the preferences option could be just as temperamental.

It also relies on TOCs setting the correct flags for each seat in their coach layouts in the reservation system.

 

[trainophile]

I always ask for an aisle seat when booking a reservable train (generally Avanti) on Trainsplit, and nine times out of ten get given a window seat. It's easy enough to change, when I open the seat selector the aisle seat next to my allocated window seat is invariably available, so I can't understand why this blip keeps occurring. It's not a big deal, but I do have to remember to check what I've been given and change as necessary.

Another thing is that when buying two tickets, it won't seem to permit seat selection for more than one person. This too might be a software blip.

 

[tram21]

I recommend just asking Scotrail via social media to make a new reservation on a table, I do it often with EMR when I use Split Tickets and want reservations all the way through.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I recommend just asking Scotrail via social media to make a new reservation on a table, I do it often with EMR when I use Split Tickets and want reservations all the way through.

Really doesn’t matter who you ask if the coach is t set up properly

 

[FaresGuru22]

TOCs have their own seating algorithms for reservations. They do take into account any customer preferences, but the choice of one customer can significantly impact upon the search result of the next customer. For example, a train runs from A to B to C.... to Z. Customer 1 wants a window seat from G to H. If that is offered, well now that is one less seat to be able to use for all other journeys that involve travel between G to H, or F to H, or G to J, etc. It might be that that seat was the last one left that was available between B to P. Well now the next customer will not be able to make a reservation for their intended journey between B to P, and will only be able to purchase an optional reservation or non-reservable ticket for that train for that journey, immediately affecting price offered. It's for this reason that TOCs have their algorithms, to optimise capacity use. It's in the interests of everyone to optimise capacity use.

 

[Merseysider]

I have noticed this recently on TPE, XC and Avanti services when booking with XC.

Selections: Window seat, power socket specifically selected - end up with an aisle seat.

This is for trains 10-12 weeks away. Completely bamboozled.

 

[Adam Williams]

TOCs have their own seating algorithms for reservations. They do take into account any customer preferences, but the choice of one customer can significantly impact upon the search result of the next customer. For example, a train runs from A to B to C.... to Z. Customer 1 wants a window seat from G to H. If that is offered, well now that is one less seat to be able to use for all other journeys that involve travel between G to H, or F to H, or G to J, etc. It might be that that seat was the last one left that was available between B to P. Well now the next customer will not be able to make a reservation for their intended journey between B to P, and will only be able to purchase an optional reservation or non-reservable ticket for that train for that journey, immediately affecting price offered. It's for this reason that TOCs have their algorithms, to optimise capacity use. It's in the interests of everyone to optimise capacity use.

If you don't want to deal with passengers travelling short distances, make the stops set-down only/pick-up only and forego the revenue you get from these passengers. Otherwise, you need to accept the reality which is that these passengers will take up seats. That is life. You can't have a two tier system where you consider some passengers more worthy of certain seats within their class of travel than others. Clearly TOCs see the value in ultimately giving passengers choice, otherwise they wouldn't be offering seat pickers.

This sort of nonsense causes real operational problems for frontline staff - particularly because you cannot properly tell the difference between customer 1 actually being a long distance customer who just happens to have had their tickets split such that they have a ticket from G to H and one that is actually travelling a short distance. Suddenly they're going to have different seats all over the train in different carriages for different journey segments, if they actually are a long distance passenger.

My advice to any TOCs who will listen is to steer clear of any "magical features" like OD barring and convoluted seat allocation algorithms, consistently use a simple set of inventory classes (blocking off wheelchairs and assistance seats only, plus cases for first class and bike spaces) and offer the same access to seats to passengers regardless of their journey, railcard held, group size, type of ticket, time of booking or any other attributes other than class of travel. Adopting these anti-patterns might make you feel clever, but will piss off passengers and cause you more problems than you think.

 

[yorkie]

I recommend just asking Scotrail via social media to make a new reservation on a table, I do it often with EMR when I use Split Tickets and want reservations all the way through.

If you are booking for one person, the easiest way is to use our seat selector.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2024 ==

Scotrail HST booked on Scotrail's website, if it makes a difference.

If you book with us, you have the option to select your chosen seat from a seat selector.

It also helps with the upkeep of the forum

 

[Class800]

Can anybody explain why requesting a table seat when booking results in me being assigned an airline seat, even though there are multiple unreserved tables in the same coach?

Scotrail HST booked on Scotrail's website, if it makes a difference.

the key word here is request. You ask, but you don't necessarily get

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2024 ==

If you are booking for one person, the easiest way is to use our seat selector.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2024 ==


If you book with us, you have the option to select your chosen seat from a seat selector.

It also helps with the upkeep of the forum

agree, I'm trying to use forum site too. I used to use trainsplit, but forum site is powered by them anyway. I don't like change, but I'm trying

 

[FaresGuru22]

This sort of nonsense causes real operational problems for frontline staff - particularly because you cannot properly tell the difference between customer 1 actually being a long distance customer who just happens to have had their tickets split such that they have a ticket from G to H and one that is actually travelling a short distance. Suddenly they're going to have different seats all over the train in different carriages for different journey segments, if they actually are a long distance passenger.

Seat algorithms try to prevent precisely that...

Imagine you have a train that stops at 25 stations along its journey from its origin to its destination. Imagine you have a single customer waiting at the origin and at each of those 24 stops just travelling to the next stop. Do you want those 25 customers to take up up to 25 different seats? And then hope there are matching journeys to further fill those partly used seats? Or do you want capacity to be optimised such that you only use 1 seat to carry those 25 people? Your choice has a massive impact on every other customer wishing to travel on that train.

It's a fine balance between giving the customer choice at point of purchase vs trying to optimise capacity use.

 

[Adam Williams]

Seat algorithms try to prevent precisely that...

Imagine you have a train that stops at 25 stations along its journey from its origin to its destination. Imagine you have a single customer waiting at the origin and at each of those 24 stops just travelling to the next stop. Do you want those 25 customers to take up up to 25 different seats? And then hope there are matching journeys to further fill those partly used seats? Or do you want capacity to be optimised such that you only use 1 seat to carry those 25 people? Your choice has a massive impact on every other customer wishing to travel on that train.

It's a fine balance between giving the customer choice at point of purchase vs trying to optimise capacity use.

But how far do you take it? If they don't express any seat preferences at all and you can allocate seats in that way - fine, do whatever you like - but we're talking about cases where the customer has specifically provided a preference and you'd rather chuck that away (despite a seat being available) for "the greater good". This then leads directly to increased support burden when the customer - who thinks this is entirely the retailer's doing - complains about not getting the seat they want, despite availability.

I'd note that - as I'm sure you're aware - all of the intercity TOCs are currently part of a working group which exists solely because of how bad this sort of automated allocation within RARS is as soon as split ticketing is involved, given how operators have decided to configure their inventory.

 

[sh24]

GWR's website invites you to "book another service as your seating preference is not available" despite there being many many seats available that fit the very same preference.

One of the many customer touchpoints that needs some major work.

 

[OscarH]

Really doesn’t matter who you ask if the coach is t set up properly

Or setup completely incorrectly, but then is broken more intentionally to make the attributes report right (2 wrongs do make a right in this case) from the broken seat map, looking at no east coast TOC in particular

 

[Adam Williams]

Or setup completely incorrectly, but then is broken more intentionally to make the attributes report right (2 wrongs do make a right in this case) from the broken seat map, looking at no east coast TOC in particular

But it works on LNER's website so it can't be wrong!

 

[Belperpete]

It makes sense to put someone who is travelling from B to C in the same seat as someone who has already booked from A to B, or v.v. Putting them in separate seats would mean that there is one less reservable seat, and doing that multiple times could soon use up all the reservable seat spaces. Which would mean that later passengers couldn't get a reservation, and would have to be playing musical chairs, swapping from seat to seat during the journey.

Or on a compulsory reservation service, would be refused a ticket for that train. Not sure that would be popular with passengers, let alone the TOC potentially losing revenue.

It would not make sense to wait until all the reservable seats were used up before you started forcing seat sharing in this way, as by then it would be too late - you would have nowhere to put a long distance A to C passenger. So inevitably TOCs are going to start doing it while there are still a reasonable number of free seats.

So it boils down to, would you really prefer a solution that always gives you your preference if it is available, but because it has already done that for all the earlier bookings will probably tell you that there is no seat available at all?


Comparing with airline seat booking, most airline journeys these days seem to be A to B, which means that seat allocation is simple. However, even so, it is not uncommon for airlines to reallocate seats. Several times I have got to a gate to find that my seat has been changed. Unfortunately it is not so simple to reallocate reserved seats on a train, as there is often no way of telling the passengers.

The underlying problem is that seats are allocated as they are sold. The best way to meet most people's preferences would be to only allocate seats once booking has closed, and you know exactly what needs reserving. You would then know that there were sufficient free seats to meet everybody's preferences. But this approach would come with its own obvious issues!

 

[swaldman]

If you are booking for one person, the easiest way is to use our seat selector.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2024 ==


If you book with us, you have the option to select your chosen seat from a seat selector.

It also helps with the upkeep of the forum

Sadly I can't - because raileasy won't post tickets, Thurso station has no ticket machine, and the ticket office there is not open at the time that I need to catch trains. Not a common scenario, I grant you, but the reason that I can't use the forum's ticket system (which I would otherwise like to do for UI purposes anyway!). I can use any company that can post tickets if I have time, or I can use Scotrail and use their e-tickets (which are not compatible with any other ToC, because.... gah).

Re the point that some have made about ticketing algorithms trying to keep some good seats unbooked by short-distance travellers in order to make them available to longer distance travellers: I can see that in the abstract, but in my particular case I was doing the full length of the service from Inverness to Edinburgh. So that ain't the cause. (or if it is, then it's broken)

 

[FaresGuru22]

but in my particular case I was doing the full length of the service from Inverness to Edinburgh. So that ain't the cause. (or if it is, then it's broken)

If travelling the length of the service, the TOC should give you a free for all on seats. It's either broken in this case or there is still a reason for them not to give you complete choice, e.g. table seats reserved for multiple passengers travelling together, which even I would disagree with for someone travelling the length of the service.

 

[yorkie]

....It's either broken in this case or there is still a reason for them not to give you complete choice, e.g. table seats reserved for multiple passengers travelling together, which even I would disagree with for someone travelling the length of the service.

If any TOC refused to allow individual table seat bookings to be made, it would stuff up groups of 3/4 people where some of the group were using PRIVs, Interrails etc; I hope no TOC does that, as the workaround would be to reserve a whole new table, which just makes it worse.

Sadly I can't - because raileasy won't post tickets, Thurso station has no ticket machine, and the ticket office there is not open at the time that I need to catch trains. Not a common scenario, I grant you, but the reason that I can't use the forum's ticket system (which I would otherwise like to do for UI purposes anyway!). I can use any company that can post tickets if I have time, or I can use Scotrail and use their e-tickets (which are not compatible with any other ToC, because.... gah).

Ah, I see.

Scotrail may still do their own m-tickets, which aren't actually e-tickets, and are awful because they are tied to an app on a specific device, as well as being buggy in general.

I thought Scotrail were planning to enable e-tickets, but I've just done a quick search and - for this journey at least - it's paper only.

 

[RyanOPlasty]

I have just boarded an Avanti Pendolino at Manchester Piccadilly. My booked seat is an aisle seat facing backwards without a table. My preference was exactly the opposite yet there are available seats in this carriage exactly I requested. Why does this occur? What can I do to ensure I get the seat I want.
I suppose I could have looked up the seating plan online, but only when I have boarded do I know which seats are available. Is it possible to rebook a seat once it has been allocated?

 

[OscarH]

I have just boarded an Avanti Pendolino at Manchester Piccadilly. My booked seat is an aisle seat facing backwards without a table. My preference was exactly the opposite yet there are available seats in this carriage exactly I requested. Why does this occur? What can I do to ensure I get the seat I want.
I suppose I could have looked up the seating plan online, but only when I have boarded do I know which seats are available. Is it possible to rebook a seat once it has been allocated?

If you use a site with a SeatSelector then you can choose a different seat after adding to your basket but before paying. TrainSplit (or the forums version of it!) has this, or TOCs often have it only for their services.

(it's unfortunately important to note, the seat maps that come from the national system are often less than great, and also many TOCs don't know the direction their train will go in, so it isn't perfect)

 

[yorkie]

... What can I do to ensure I get the seat I want...

Book with us (or any other Trainsplit variant site), with a copy of the relevant seating plan PDF to hand, to make sure that the seat has suitable attributes (some 'window' seats are not at windows, for example)

 

[ricoblade]

This happens all the time to me on LNER and Cross Country, no matter what I select - Table, Forward, Window - I get the opposite - Airline, Backward, Aisle.

On LNER I use the seat selector to change my seats and there are *always* ones that meet my preferences.