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Would there be a strong case for Northern extending one of their Crewe stoppers to Shrewsbury, once they have their new trains in service, some of which are rumoured to be at least bi-mode? They could run hourly, with a bi-hourly all-stops (the alternative hour to the TfW stopper) and a bi-hourly serving Nantwich, Whitchurch & Wem. This would provide better frequency for the stations between Crewe & Shrewsbury, whilst also allowing all of the TfW long distance services to run express along the line.
Would there be a strong case for Northern extending one of their Crewe stoppers to Shrewsbury, once they have their new trains in service, some of which are rumoured to be at least bi-mode? They could run hourly, with a bi-hourly all-stops (the alternative hour to the TfW stopper) and a bi-hourly serving Nantwich, Whitchurch & Wem. This would provide better frequency for the stations between Crewe & Shrewsbury, whilst also allowing all of the TfW long distance services to run express along the line.
I think the junction at Crewe doesn't have the capacity for it - even if I believe it would be more attractive than the existing Crewe - Shrewsbury shuttle
Crewe will soon see less terminating services with LNWR proposing to extend Stafford - Crewe to Manchester Airport and Euston - Crewe to Manchester Victoria
Perhaps one option would be for a Crewe - Chester / Crewe - Shrewsbury to merge to enhance connectivity
Or extend the Manchester - Crewe to Stoke via Alsager as services already terminate at Platform 1 at Crewe
I would have thought the Crewe-Shrewsbury local is about as basket case as Wrexham-Bidston (in terms of costs/revenue/subsidy).
Northern won't be interested in it, and I'm sure their future bi-modes will find better work elsewhere.
It's lucky there are some long distance TfW services to add calls at some stations to the basic 2-hourly shuttles.
I remains to be seen if TfW services in England will remain as now under GBR, but I've seen no sign of a change in the offing.
Chester-Crewe-Shrewsbury could work (there is some interworking already), using the lonely P12 at Crewe, especially if/when Crewe-Shrewsbury goes over to 197s.
Another service option would be to extend some Cambrian services which currently terminate at Shrewsbury to Crewe, as sometimes happens during engineering work towards Birmingham.
I would have thought the Crewe-Shrewsbury local is about as basket case as Wrexham-Bidston (in terms of costs/revenue/subsidy).
Northern won't be interested in it, and I'm sure their future bi-modes will find better work elsewhere.
It's lucky there are some long distance TfW services to add calls at some stations to the basic 2-hourly shuttles.
I remains to be seen if TfW services in England will remain as now under GBR, but I've seen no sign of a change in the offing.
Chester-Crewe-Shrewsbury could work (there is some interworking already), using the lonely P12 at Crewe, especially if/when Crewe-Shrewsbury goes over to 197s.
Another service option would be to extend some Cambrian services which currently terminate at Shrewsbury to Crewe, as sometimes happens during engineering work towards Birmingham.
Advantage is freeing up some 197s to help TfW cover their other services as planned (including North Wales extras). Disadvantage is the need for anyone doing Cambrian to Birmingham to change at Shrewsbury.
You have to be on the ball marketing it though as for Chester and Shrewsbury passengers, it may be quicker to wait and travel via Wrexham. You also have to consider the train length. Chester to Crewe not more often than not needs 3+ carriages. Throwing that on the Crewe-Shrewsbury stopper would be a colossal waste of carriages. The stopper only needs 2 carriages max.
There could be quite big issues too around delays. Chester - Crewe being self contained does help it as it has almost no delays except those within TFWs control. Link it to the stopper, you could massively increase delays as the service is of course reliant on the Manchester - Cardiff services running on time.
The only positive here would be it would stop the Chester part using platform 9/10 at Crewe which are awful platforms for passengers. Boarding passengers give absolutely no space at all to let people off. Loads of people crowd at the buffers too and the only way to get past is walking on the platform edge (which isn't very safe). You get so far down P6 and you get screamed at by Avanti staff to get behind the yellow line (but you physically can't get behind the line because of the crowds). Not many chairs on P9/10 either so from a passenger perspective, using the service Chester-Crewe would be much more pleasant as there would be more seats and it would be much more platform space for me to barge other passengers into when they refuse to let me alight.
Advantage is freeing up some 197s to help TfW cover their other services as planned (including North Wales extras). Disadvantage is the need for anyone doing Cambrian to Birmingham to change at Shrewsbury.
Aberystwyth to / from Telford, Wolverhampton, New Street and International is 21,000 journeys per year; Manchester Piccadilly, Victoria and Airport's 3,000, so that's a fairly large disadvantage. Euston's the only station in the twelve most common pairs with Aberystwyth which isn't on the Birmingham International – Cambrian coast route, and via Crewe's time-competitive enough now that it might be quicker without the need to wait for a change at Shrewsbury.
Aberystwyth to / from Telford, Wolverhampton, New Street and International is 21,000 journeys per year; Manchester Piccadilly, Victoria and Airport's 3,000, so that's a fairly large disadvantage. Euston's the only station in the twelve most common pairs with Aberystwyth which isn't on the Birmingham International – Cambrian coast route, and via Crewe's time-competitive enough now that it might be quicker without the need to wait for a change at Shrewsbury.
Surely a fairly big reason for the higher number of West Midlands-Cambrian passengers compared with from the Manchester/North West is because there's an advertised direct service, which makes it a more attractive rail journey to make? Not suggesting the listed passenger numbers would be the other way round, but there'd be a more even spread.
Back to Crewe-Shrewsbury, Nantwich should have an hourly service and arguably Whitchurch & Wem too; could these be served every hour by the TfW from Manchester, or would it be better to make the stopper hourly (with the smaller request stops still every 2 hours)?
Surely a fairly big reason for the higher number of West Midlands-Cambrian passengers compared with from the Manchester/North West is because there's an advertised direct service, which makes it a more attractive rail journey to make? Not suggesting the listed passenger numbers would be the other way round, but there'd be a more even spread.
Back to Crewe-Shrewsbury, Nantwich should have an hourly service and arguably Whitchurch & Wem too; could these be served every hour by the TfW from Manchester, or would it be better to make the stopper hourly (with the smaller request stops still every 2 hours)?
I think an hourly Chester - Crewe - Shrewsbury (requires 3 trains instead of the current 2 trains on existing diagrams) to offer through connectivity. Journey time doesn't alter much removing the smaller request stops
Would mean a more consistent pattern on the Welsh Marches line and can offer connections at Crewe for Manchester or Shrewsbury for Hereford
I believe part of the reason the initia Aberystwyth - Birmingham service was extended to Birmingham International was to offer an airport link for the international students at the airport. The only alternative given the junction at Crewe would be a Liverpool - Crewe - Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth calling at Liverpool South Parkway for John Lennon Airport. However, long haul connectivity at Liverpool isn't as good as Birmingham or Manchester. However, it would mean just 1 change at Crewe from Manchester Airport which makes it more attractive so pros and cons to different routes
I believe part of the reason the initia Aberystwyth - Birmingham service was extended to Birmingham International was to offer an airport link for the international students at the airport.
It's nice to have a change from London services avoiding changing at New Street with a better chance of getting a seat as well, although in most cases Crewe could provide the same.
Would there be a strong case for Northern extending one of their Crewe stoppers to Shrewsbury, once they have their new trains in service, some of which are rumoured to be at least bi-mode? They could run hourly, with a bi-hourly all-stops (the alternative hour to the TfW stopper) and a bi-hourly serving Nantwich, Whitchurch & Wem. This would provide better frequency for the stations between Crewe & Shrewsbury, whilst also allowing all of the TfW long distance services to run express along the line.
Doubling-up the Crewe-Shrewsbury stopper to hourly could allow some speeding up of the Manchester-South Wales trains BUT Whitchurch and Nantwich do value their through trains to Manchester in particular.
So the current arrangement is probably the best option taking into account cost, practicality and service.
I think an hourly Chester - Crewe - Shrewsbury (requires 3 trains instead of the current 2 trains on existing diagrams) to offer through connectivity. Journey time doesn't alter much removing the smaller request stops
Would mean a more consistent pattern on the Welsh Marches line and can offer connections at Crewe for Manchester or Shrewsbury for Hereford
I believe part of the reason the initia Aberystwyth - Birmingham service was extended to Birmingham International was to offer an airport link for the international students at the airport. The only alternative given the junction at Crewe would be a Liverpool - Crewe - Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth calling at Liverpool South Parkway for John Lennon Airport. However, long haul connectivity at Liverpool isn't as good as Birmingham or Manchester. However, it would mean just 1 change at Crewe from Manchester Airport which makes it more attractive so pros and cons to different routes
Doubling-up the Crewe-Shrewsbury stopper to hourly could allow some speeding up of the Manchester-South Wales trains BUT Whitchurch and Nantwich do value their through trains to Manchester in particular.
So the current arrangement is probably the best option taking into account cost, practicality and service.
Whilst I like a fast Manchester service, the line is hardly an Intercity route. I would have no objection to the trains stopping at Whitchurch and Nantwich every hour. that would bring those stations a clockface service and could be a really big boost for those towns. IF some developers could be persuaded to expand the stations to cope with 6 car minimum then all good. I am not familiar enough with Wem to say either way whether that deserves hourly Manchester.
I like the Chester-Crewe-Shrewsbury idea, but can see how that cuts off Manchester links.
All points taken on the Cambrian, it was just throwing out an alternative that could be done with present rolling stock (The additional units for Shrewsbury to Birmingham being the slack in the 196 fleet and/or those 196s going to temporarily run East-West Rail)
Surely the Crewe-Shrewsbury stopper would be better given to WMT as an extension to the Birmingham service, rather than needing to add a bi-mode to an existing Northern service? Problem is that this would have to be split again if/when Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury gets wired (which aught to be sooner rather than later).
I'd like to see a Liverpool-Shrewsbury service, but that will create more congestion between Weaver Junction and Crewe. TfW said in April that their planned Liverpool-Shrewsbury-Cardiff via Chester has been deferred, so (officially at least) it is still a possibility.
The fastest route from Shrewsbury to London is via Crewe, it's usually at least 20 minutes quicker than it is via Birmingham. This varies through the day, and sometimes there is only 4 minutes between trains at Crewe (eg. arr. xx.28, dep. xx.32), however the arrival into Crewe at 13.28 (for example) is after a non-stop train from Shrewsbury taking 37 minutes, when the journey time is actually 8 minutes less than that, so the connection possibility is a good deal better than the timetable would suggest.
It follows that it would also be quicker to London from anywhere along the Cambrian route via Crewe, especially if there were through trains from Barmouth/Aberystwyth to Crewe. The other thing about this is, as many members of this forum have said in previous threads, there is no intention of electrifying Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury, or even just improving the linespeed, but providing a through service to Crewe would be a whole lot cheaper. And if this idea could be developed, the enormous savings on the other options might be reflected in providing fares that don't penalise passengers by charging extra for taking this longer route ...
Surely a fairly big reason for the higher number of West Midlands-Cambrian passengers compared with from the Manchester/North West is because there's an advertised direct service, which makes it a more attractive rail journey to make? Not suggesting the listed passenger numbers would be the other way round, but there'd be a more even spread.
I suspect the reason for that many Mid Walians wanting to go towards the West Midlands is more to do with society and history; that is the way they have gone for years, and there is no "tie" with Manchester and the North West. That is the area that the North Walians head.
(Note, I live in Mid Wales!)
I believe part of the reason the initia Aberystwyth - Birmingham service was extended to Birmingham International was to offer an airport link for the international students at the airport.
The fastest route from Shrewsbury to London is via Crewe, it's usually at least 20 minutes quicker than it is via Birmingham. This varies through the day, and sometimes there is only 4 minutes between trains at Crewe (eg. arr. xx.28, dep. xx.32), however the arrival into Crewe at 13.28 (for example) is after a non-stop train from Shrewsbury taking 37 minutes, when the journey time is actually 8 minutes less than that, so the connection possibility is a good deal better than the timetable would suggest.
And yet when on the numerous occasions I travel from the Cambrian to London I am never offered that route but given the choice of either changing at Wolves or New St, or very occasionally Wolves and Stafford?
It follows that it would also be quicker to London from anywhere along the Cambrian route via Crewe, especially if there were through trains from Barmouth/Aberystwyth to Crewe. The other thing about this is, as many members of this forum have said in previous threads, there is no intention of electrifying Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury, or even just improving the linespeed, but providing a through service to Crewe would be a whole lot cheaper. And if this idea could be developed, the enormous savings on the other options might be reflected in providing fares that don't penalise passengers by charging extra for taking this longer route ...
Surely a fairly big reason for the higher number of West Midlands-Cambrian passengers compared with from the Manchester/North West is because there's an advertised direct service, which makes it a more attractive rail journey to make?
Yes - but also because that’s the way it’s been for years, so not only is it where the train goes, it’s also where the family always goes, where Auntie Doreen retired to, where they’ve got such a good chip shop etc etc. inertia is a very powerful force…
This would provide better frequency for the stations between Crewe & Shrewsbury, whilst also allowing all of the TfW long distance services to run express along the line.
Better timetabled frequency maybe, but the performance impacts on the overall railway would be much worse.
TfW Long distance services being sped up would require identify suitable paths from Cardiff to Manchester. It's not impossible, but it's not as simple as just speeding up the train between Shrewsbury and Crewe.
And yet when on the numerous occasions I travel from the Cambrian to London I am never offered that route but given the choice of either changing at Wolves or New St, or very occasionally Wolves and Stafford?
I think the offers you receive will depend quite a lot on where (or who) you're asking. Most station staff (if available) and websites are likely to assume that you'll want the cheapest route, and since going via Crewe is probably more expensive, that would explain why it's not offered. Sad really, because some people would appreciate the quicker option even if it costs more.
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I looked at the timetable today out of interest, and was somewhat surprised to notice that Wolverhampton seems to be out of favour at present, certainly for northbound weekday morning trips. In the mornings, you can reach Birmingham from London in 1h16m at least once per hour, but you can't reach Wolverhampton, just 13 miles further along the same line, in less than 2h13m until 15.29 without changing trains. Put this another way. You can reach Stafford from London in 1h17m every hour, and again in 1h22m on a different train, thereby offering two trains every hour, in almost an hour less than you can reach Wolverhampton. Bear in mind here that the population of Stafford is less than a third of the population of Wolverhampton. It's hardly any wonder that Wolverhampton passengers are choosing to travel via Stafford.
As for Telford, the problem for rail passengers wanting to reach London is huge because there are no through trains to London whatsoever, travelling through Birmingham is painstakingly slow, and travelling through Stafford involves TWO changes of train when the direct journey is only 141 miles. This is very poor for a rapidly growing town with a population well over twice that of Stafford, and it's not hard to see why the rail passengers journeys to London from Telford are fewer than one sixth of the numbers from Stafford despite its much bigger population. Now there are people, quite possibly on this forum, who would argue that the reason the rail service is so poor is because the passenger demand is so small, whereas the reality is (at least in part) that the opposite is true, ie the passenger numbers are small precisely because the rail service is so poor. I would suggest that if you could reach London from Telford in the same time as you can from Stafford (very similar distance), then the rail passenger demand would very quickly double, and then double again. A lot of this is fortuitous of course, with Stafford just happening to be located on the WCML and Telford being the wrong side of much favoured Birmingham, but it all arguably deserves more attention than it gets to see if there might be opportunities for improvement. After all, with Telford being such a growing town for industry, it's highly likely that some people will want to travel there in the morning from the London direction for business purposes.
To conclude, it might not be that easy to help Telford, but there does at least seem to be a way forward for Shrewsbury and the Cambrian route, if the rail authorities would just recognise this. Providing through trains form the Cambrian route is one option, but arguably even more helpful would be to provide fares that allow passengers to travel to London via Crewe without having fares that effectively discriminate against them using this route.
Sadly, the route from Shrewsbury to Wolves is restricted to 70mph, and many on this forum don't believe it's worth upgrading, so running via the Oxley chord would always be slow, as well as needing a reverse at Stafford. The journey via Crewe is at least something that can be done for Shrewsbury passengers straight away without even any train changes, and Cambrian passengers could be helped if they could continue to Crewe on the same train, as suggested above. What is needed is some focus on making the fares via Crewe more helpful.
