Why is Merseyrail so heavily staffed?

[Merseyrailfan]

What the point of staffing nearly every station on Merseyrail network, when the vast majority of ticket office are running at a loss. Why do small stations like Aughton Park get special treatment when it has less than 150k passengers for 2022-2023 aren‘t even in Liverpool City Region, but it gets staffed full time, It must be ridiculously expensive to staff the vast majority of stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What the point of staffing nearly every station on Merseyrail network, when vast majority of ticket office are running at loss. Why do small stations like Aughton Park get special treatment when it has less than 150k passengers for 2022-2023 and are not even in Liverpool City Region, but it gets staffed full time, It must be expensive to staff vast majority of stations.

I've questioned this many times. It comes down to "because the Liverpool City Region is willing to spend taxpayers' money on it", essentially.

I suspect the majority of Merseyrail small-station users would be happy to lose the booking office for a combination of e-tickets, contactless and lower fares/taxation.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

All of Merseyrail's ticket offices run at a loss, even in the city centres. Some are complete basket cases, others (normally cushioned by convenience store sales) do a bit better.

I don't think it's sustainable in the medium term, and once Pay as you Go comes in (fairly soon) - surely at that point the losses are unsustainable.

The new trains were supposed to be DOO, but they conceded defeat to the unions, so they are already paying far more in staffing than they'd originally expected.

A high proportion of their stations are now fully wheelchair accessible, with level boarding (no ramp required) - so I think even that argument will be mitigated.

But it's political - no matter how bad the financials are, it's toxic to suggest closing anything down, especially involving a unionised workforce, with a Labour government in power.

 

[Horizon22]

Isn't in partly because on Merseyrail station staff do everything - passenger assistance, some cleaning etc. So they've kept them on in that regard, but ticket office staff are generally more costly (higher grade) than station staff.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Same argument could be levied for many London underground stations too, the stations underground legally need station staff in some capacity but the ones on the surface & mainline could do without. I suspect there is a strong will as @Tazi Hupefi pointed out the 777s are DOO capeable but there will always be presure to prevent job loss even if it is hemorage point. The railways is not unique in this regard.

 

[class 9]

I've questioned this many times. It comes down to "because the Liverpool City Region is willing to spend taxpayers' money on it", essentially.

I suspect the majority of Merseyrail small-station users would be happy to lose the booking office for a combination of e-tickets, contactless and lower fares/taxation.

Fares/tax won't go down as a result of ticket office closures.

 

[YoungJohnson]

The new trains were supposed to be DOO, but they conceded defeat to the unions, so they are already paying far more in staffing than they'd originally expected.

DOO was never going to come in on Merseyrail. Aside from it being Liverpool (which has it's own culture around work, unions and employment), the drivers knew both Chris McGhee and Martin Zee personally and what happened to both of them - one in prison and the other dragged through the courts on an utterly nonsense charge, essentially runing his life and it appears ending his railway career even after being cleared.

No driver who knew either of them is going to want to be responsible and as the court in the McGee case stated, legally liable for safeguarding drunks and crowd control on platforms, nor the myriad of dangers in the dispatch corridor. I'm not going to defend the actions of McGee, but aside from the dispatch incident, the summing up of his case included the judge castigating him for failing to deal with the welfare and safeguarding of the girl irrespective of the accident. Without a guard, a DOO driver is legally liable for this.

Coupled with the Stephen Murdoch dispatch case and West Wickham where a trainee driver dragged a woman under a train, and with the onus on lone drivers being responsible for managing crowds and behaviour on stranded trains these days, it's a non starter.

We've moved on from the 80s mentality of "you're on your own on a DOO train", with a driver simply relying on gaining interlock, and simply ignoring crowding issues on platforms or people getting assaulted, vulnerable minors, the disabled on trains - and rightly so. Unfortunately the powers that be can't simply then turn round and demand that this same lone driver is made legally liable for everything on top of it / or the scapegoat for everything, when the public rightly demand higher standards.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Isn't in partly because on Merseyrail station staff do everything - passenger assistance, some cleaning etc. So they've kept them on in that regard, but ticket office staff are generally more costly (higher grade) than station staff.

Cleaning is essentially "litter picking" - they have contractors like most TOCs that do the actual cleaning. Most TOCs have this sort of arrangement at their single manned staffed stations.

Whilst the ticket office staff can provide assistance at stations that are accessible, this has been impacted by the level boarding now possible with the new fleet and platform alterations to match. Obviously they can support other disabilities, but it's not as common.

 

[Efini92]

DOO was never going to come in on Merseyrail. Aside from it being Liverpool (which has it's own culture around work, unions and employment), the drivers knew both Chris McGhee and Martin Zee personally and what happened to both of them - one in prison and the other dragged through the courts on an utterly nonsense charge, essentially runing his life and it appears ending his railway career even after being cleared.

No driver who knew either of them is going to want to be responsible and as the court in the McGee case stated, legally liable for safeguarding drunks and crowd control on platforms, nor the myriad of dangers in the dispatch corridor. I'm not going to defend the actions of McGee, but aside from the dispatch incident, the summing up of his case included the judge castigating him for failing to deal with the welfare and safeguarding of the girl irrespective of the accident. Without a guard, a DOO driver is legally liable for this.

Coupled with the Stephen Murdoch dispatch case and West Wickham where a trainee driver dragged a woman under a train, and with the onus on lone drivers being responsible for managing crowds and behaviour on stranded trains these days, it's a non starter.

We've moved on from the 80s mentality of "you're on your own on a DOO train", with a driver simply relying on gaining interlock, and simply ignoring crowding issues on platforms or people getting assaulted, vulnerable minors, the disabled on trains - and rightly so. Unfortunately the powers that be can't simply then turn round and demand that this same lone driver is made legally liable for everything on top of it / or the scapegoat for everything, when the public rightly demand higher standards.

It’s also worth pointing out guard is in the line of promotion to driver on Merseyrail.

 

[DarloRich]

because the devolved local authorities want to spend thier money on staff.

 

[Jamesrob637]

In a world where we're continually complaining about understaffing, who's complaining?

 

[Bletchleyite]

No driver who knew either of them is going to want to be responsible and as the court in the McGee case stated, legally liable for safeguarding drunks and crowd control on platforms, nor the myriad of dangers in the dispatch corridor. I'm not going to defend the actions of McGee, but aside from the dispatch incident, the summing up of his case included the judge castigating him for failing to deal with the welfare and safeguarding of the girl irrespective of the accident. Without a guard, a DOO driver is legally liable for this.

Perhaps ironically, I've witnessed an incident that was very close to the drunk-leaning-on-the-train one (though the leaning started after the guard had tapped their card and gone inside) and it was the driver who noticed someone had moved towards and was leaning on the train after it started moving (slowly) and stopped. Had it been a regular guard operated train, now guards leaning out until clear of the platform is no longer a thing, there could well have been a death.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

Fares/tax won't go down as a result of ticket office closures.

They might go up less, or the money might be spent on something else. It isn't going to go into the Mayor's personal pockets.

 

[Chester1]

DOO was never going to come in on Merseyrail. Aside from it being Liverpool (which has it's own culture around work, unions and employment),

This bit applies to staffing of stations too. As long as central government allows a financial situation where Merseyrail is overstaffed then it will continue. It's the 1970s attitude that even staff reductions through natural wastage are unacceptable because it reduces union influence and revenue.

The victory on DOO meant that guards took on more responsibility for ticketing. Combined with step free access and level boarding there shouldn't be much of a role left for most station staff soon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This bit applies to staffing of stations too. As long as central government allows a financial situation where Merseyrail is overstaffed then it will continue. It's the 1970s attitude that even staff reductions through natural wastage are unacceptable because it reduces union influence and revenue.

The victory on DOO meant that guards took on more responsibility for ticketing. Combined with step free access and level boarding there shouldn't be much of a role left for most station staff soon.

Natural wastage would be the best way to deal with the booking office thing. A lot of the staff are at the older end of things, and you could just close the smaller offices and relocate staff to other ones as people leave, or as they move to other roles e.g. drivers/guards.

Objection to natural wastage is not something I can possibly support.

I think it would make sense for them to keep some (the outer termini, the Liverpool city centre stations and a few other busier ones e.g. Maghull and Formby) but not all of them by any stretch. Aughton Park absolutely does not need a booking office, a TVM and contactless/eticket acceptance would be perfectly sufficient.

 

[riceuten]

In a world where we're continually complaining about understaffing, who's complaining?

Those who are ideologically disposed to do so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those who are ideologically disposed to do so.

Those of us who seek value for taxpayers' money? Those of us who know Merseyrail is *so* overstaffed that the staff actually get in the way, e.g. at platform pinch points at Liverpool Central and the gateline?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Those of us who seek value for taxpayers' money? Those of us who know Merseyrail is *so* overstaffed that the staff actually get in the way, e.g. at platform pinch points at Liverpool Central and the gateline?

The city centre stations will always need a significant number of staff because of obligations under various legislation relating to fire safety, e.g. The Fire Precautions (Sub-surface Railway Stations) Regulations and Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005.

ORR also has concerns with platform crowding and escalator safety - particularly at Liverpool Central - which is why you get staff acting in a similar capacity to Manchester Piccadilly P13/14.

When I attended an industry visit they also had staff dealing with deliveries and goods relating to the convenience store concept, unloading cages from lorries etc. Probably quite unique roles for proper railway staff, usually done by contractors on vastly inferior conditions and pay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

ORR also has concerns with platform crowding and escalator safety - particularly at Liverpool Central - which is why you get staff acting in a similar capacity to Manchester Piccadilly P13/14.

And like the staff at Piccadilly 13/14, they provide few benefits, get in the way and get peoples' backs up by shouting at them.

It's really not a very good solution anywhere - passive design is better than active design. There are things that could be changed at Central to make crowding less of an issue, such as changing the stopping position of 4-car trains so they don't overlap the escalators.

 

[waveyswirley]

I'm glad the trains aren't DOO as I find the presence of a guard reassuring. I agree though that there's no need for the quieter stations to be staffed - this links in with the network's desperate need for modernization, pay as you go, e-tickets etc.

 

[dk1]

Regardless of how quiet or inefficient it seems it’s just wonderful to see stations staffed and very reassuring for many people.

 

[WirralLine]

I like having each station staffed. It's reassuring to have a staff presence especially as from my own experiences, antisocial behaviour seems to be rife on the network again recently. I've often seen the station staff on platforms telling loitering kids to leave when they're emptying the bins etc. I don't like the Carlisle rent-a-thugs much with their very harsh approach to ticketing (poor training, guilty until proven innocent, pick easy targets and have a general power trip) but I think lately we need more of them knocking around particularly of an evening. Although not long ago I did encounter a group of proper Merseyrail RPIs on a late night Chester service who boarded at Central and conducted a ticket check as soon as we emerged from the underground- a very rare occurrence!

I remember texting BTP regarding some drunks on my train one shift (not Merseyrail) and they arranged for the station staff at Bidston to meet me when i arrived to help me out- which they did and it was greatly appreciated- they don't just sell tickets and empty bins all the time!

Since the 777 introduction, I find the guards are nowhere near as visible as they used to be on most services. A lot of them just hide in the cab, come out to tap the dispatch card and then go back in the cab. Considering the role has basically changed to a customer host now that they've given the doors away (yes i know theyre still safety critical), they seem less available to customers now than they ever have been! Big shame in my eyes. I'm a very regular user these days and can count on one hand how many times I've seen a guard venture further than the rear coach recently.

 

[gka472l]

Compare with, say for instance, the Tyne and Wear Metro, which is a comparable network (although nowhere near as well staffed), and that seems to have quite a problem with anti social behaviour from what I've read in various places. Now as a regular user of Merseyrail for many, many years, I've hardly seen anything like that on there (not to say there isn't instances of it at times), and have no qualms about using the network into the late evening.....I'd say that has something to do with a decent staff presence so I'm all for the proper staffing of Merseyrail, I'm also a Merseyside tax payer.....

 

[TUC]

I've questioned this many times. It comes down to "because the Liverpool City Region is willing to spend taxpayers' money on it", essentially.

I suspect the majority of Merseyrail small-station users would be happy to lose the booking office for a combination of e-tickets, contactless and lower fares/taxation.

Is it Liverpool City Region or, notwithstanding the unusual arrangements for the Merseyrail concession, that it is actually the taxpayer who is funding the high staffing levels via the subsidies that are paid?

 

[Birkonian]

Spital is rarely staffed during evenings or at weekends lately.

 

[WirralLine]

Spital is rarely staffed during evenings or at weekends lately.

Bromborough Rake booking office went through a phase of being closed more than it was open recently, at all times of day - lately it seems to be open most of the time so staffing must have improved. I did travel from Spital the other night and the office window had shutters down.

 

[Djgr]

Compare with, say for instance, the Tyne and Wear Metro, which is a comparable network (although nowhere near as well staffed), and that seems to have quite a problem with anti social behaviour from what I've read in various places. Now as a regular user of Merseyrail for many, many years, I've hardly seen anything like that on there (not to say there isn't instances of it at times), and have no qualms about using the network into the late evening.....I'd say that has something to do with a decent staff presence so I'm all for the proper staffing of Merseyrail, I'm also a Merseyside tax payer.....

Agreed. I think the "problems" of having staffed stations in urban areas are less than the problems of having unstaffed stations in urban areas.

 

[GardenRail]

This is a good thing, I like to see a staff presence.

 

[frodshamfella]

I also like to see staff presence, rather than empty voids.

 

[Taunton]

I think the "problems" of having staffed stations in urban areas are less than the problems of having unstaffed stations in urban areas.

Having known the DLR since day one, I just wonder how they achieve their staffless open stations, absence of disorder, apparently low levels of fare evasion, etc.

 

[185]

What the point of staffing nearly every station on Merseyrail network, when the vast majority of ticket office are running at a loss. Why do small stations like Aughton Park get special treatment when it has less than 150k passengers for 2022-2023 aren‘t even in Liverpool City Region, but it gets staffed full time, It must be ridiculously expensive to staff the vast majority of stations.

Why do stations on Manchester's equivalent commuter rail system have so many serious crimes against the person including mu*s and s* offences when Liverpool doesn't?

Having staff permanently there acts as a deterrent to crime & ASB. Add into the contract wheelchair assists and other helpful things they do, and it's money well spent.

I'd rather be on a Merseyrail station at 10pm on a dark night, than one of 'don't worry we've got lots of cameras instead' Metrolink's wild west stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2024 ==

Spital is rarely staffed during evenings or at weekends lately.

It seems the operator is cashing in by taking it's time in backfilling GPR (ie spare) vacancies and perhaps that should be reason enough to ditch contractor Serco/Transport UK.