Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[Richard Scott]

Surprising as I would have guessed 197’s beat them like that but I suppose once you’ve got all that mass going, there’s a lot of power available to keep it going !

Also electric transmissions can put full power down over a wide speed range once moving, something I doubt the mechanical transmissions of the 197 can do despite having 5 ratios?

 

[Grumpy Git]

Came into Crewe from the south on the WCML last night at about 8 p.m. on the LNWR service from Euston and noticed 67020 at the northern end of a TfW Mk4 set in the Arriva depot, (with a driver sat waiting in the loco).

The coaches looked particularly 'well used' externally, with one in particular that looked like it had been used to keep the line side vegetation in check all the way from Piccadilly to Cardiff!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The speed can only be achieved between Wilmslow and Crewe, but the journey time between the two is about the same for both 197 and 67/MKIV because as has been pointed out, the acceleration of the 197s is fantastic and in this particular situation it's enough to cancel out the higher top speed of the locos.

Between Sandbach and Alderley Edge actually (from Handforth southbound, but the Wilmslow stop effectively kills that).
All the benefit of higher speeds is usually negated by the approach control into Crewe and congestion from Cheadle Hulme to Manchester.

 

[craigybagel]

Between Sandbach and Alderley Edge actually (from Handforth southbound, but the Wilmslow stop effectively kills that).

I was referring to the stops that TfW call at to make it simple. The exact start and stop points of the 110 make little difference anyway - northbound 110 isn't normally achieved until beyond Holmes Chapel, and southbound from a Wilmslow call it's usually between Chelford loop and Joddrell Bank. The longer section southbound starting at Handforth isn't impacted by the Wilmslow call as even on ECS services you won't be doing more than about 95 through Wilmslow anyway.

All the benefit of higher speeds is usually negated by the approach control into Crewe and congestion from Cheadle Hulme to Manchester.

There's no approach control into Crewe any more, it went a few years ago. It's very rare you get a clear path in to the station owing to other traffic across Crewe North Junction, but it is possible. I agree about the congestion into Manchester though. There's an Avanti booked across Cheadle about 3 minutes in front of the TfW, so there's no point in speeding up the overly generous time allocated for Crewe - Wilmslow. It's handy for recovery during late running though

 

[Lurcheroo]

Also electric transmissions can put full power down over a wide speed range once moving, something I doubt the mechanical transmissions of the 197 can do despite having 5 ratios?

Yes I would assume that once you have enough speed to sufficiently reduce the back EMF in the motors and therefore reduce the current draw then you can pretty much apply full power and you continuously have ‘full power’ actually applied to the motors as opposed to a mechanical gearbox, as you say in the 197’s case it is a ZF 5 speed gear box which is much more like a car where you would take full power but the revs increase and drop as the gears change meaning you’re not always getting ‘full power’ applied.

With an electric motor as well, power peaks around 50% of its rated RPM whilst its efficiency is highest at around 90% RPM. The diesel engine can also run at a constant speed if full power is applied unlike with the mechanical gear box.

All in all, does make a lot of sense !

 

[Welshguy1048]

Good morning

Does anyone know what happened with this mk4 set this morning? - it got cancelled at Chester.

RTT says a problem with the doors....

Realtime Trains | 1V91 0530 Holyhead to Chester | 26/08/2024

Real-time train running information for 1V91 0530 departure from Holyhead to Chester on 26/08/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thanks

Dave

 

[nineteenninety]

Good morning

Does anyone know what happened with this mk4 set this morning? - it got cancelled at Chester.

RTT says a problem with the doors....

Realtime Trains | 1V91 0530 Holyhead to Chester | 26/08/2024

Real-time train running information for 1V91 0530 departure from Holyhead to Chester on 26/08/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thanks

Dave

WSP Fault and Interlock issues.

 

[Bikeman78]

Well the 197’s supposedly have bigger waste and fresh water tanks than the likes of 158’s.
To add to this, TFW are also installing tanking points at locations such as Shrewsbury and Pwllheli (stabling points but not depots) so that almost every unit can be emptied each night.

It would be interesting to see some numbers. However, 158s have two toilets so, unless the 197 tanks are twice the size, the overall capacity is reduced. I agree, the extra tanking facilities will be a big help. I think Carmarthen is getting them as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2024 ==

It's one of the reasons why they're much better suited to the Marches services that skip more stops - they take a long time to stop and even longer to get going again. But once they're on the move, they'll climb hills better than anything in the fleet, even 197s.

The climb to Llanvihangel being a case in point. Their mid range acceleration is pretty good. I recall an early run on one from Reading to Paddington with 12 mark 1s. Start to stop was 25 minutes, very similar to HSTs at the time.

 

[Welshguy1048]

WSP Fault and Interlock issues.

Thanks @MattyJames

Dave

 

[JakeMurphy]

1W96 is having issues tonight. 67012 is struggling

 

[BillStampy]

1W96 is having issues tonight. 67012 is struggling

Showing on JourneyCheck as a delay at Shrewsbury, line updates showing as a broken down train between Craven Arms and Church Stretton

 

[37052 xb mr]

On the move now

 

[sd0733]

Traction motor fault on 67012. 1 Traction motor now isolated to allow it to remain in service.

 

[BillStampy]

Traction motor fault on 67012. 1 Traction motor now isolated to allow it to remain in service.

Shame as I saw it leaving Cardiff proudly leading earlier. Hopefully it'll make its way to Holyhead now without issue.

 

[Western 52]

67012 was running well on 1V50 yesterday, early into Swansea!

 

[BillStampy]

67012 was running well on 1V50 yesterday, early into Swansea!

Heard it sounding the life out of the horn around Llanharan, turns out the Holyhead driver was doing it for a family member who was there. Funny in my opinion. Just a plethora of horns outside!! Worked perfectly all the way to Swansea!

 

[Western 52]

Heard it sounding the life out of the horn around Llanharan, turns out the Holyhead driver was doing it for a family member who was there. Funny in my opinion. Just a plethora of horns outside!! Worked perfectly all the way to Swansea!

Ah yes I noticed the horn blowing, but didn't know why!

 

[D6130]

Heard it sounding the life out of the horn around Llanharan, turns out the Holyhead driver was doing it for a family member who was there. Funny in my opinion. Just a plethora of horns outside!! Worked perfectly all the way to Swansea!

Didn't know that Holyhead drivers work all the way to Swansea!

 

[Jacob Porrett]

67008/67025 and HD04 without a loco on Crewe depot today that I could see. (27/8/24)

 

[craigybagel]

Wow that’s pretty wild then! I had heard one of the Mach DI’s who did their training down in Cardiff say that they were told “this is where you’d go into emergency on a 150 to stop, but don’t brake yet” might have even said the same about the 175 but I can’t quite remember now!

I use the same braking points for 75mph in a 150/153 as from 90 in a 175/197. There's a lot to be said for disk brakes/engine brakes over brake blocks!

I have heard it takes a bit of getting used to the brakes on them and they’re a bit more tricky than units!
I didn’t know that they didn’t have light loco speed restrictions though!

67, 68 and 88 are all exempt - as far as I know they're the only ones.

Surprising as I would have guessed 197’s beat them like that but I suppose once you’ve got all that mass going, there’s a lot of power available to keep it going !

Also electric transmissions can put full power down over a wide speed range once moving, something I doubt the mechanical transmissions of the 197 can do despite having 5 ratios?

Yes I would assume that once you have enough speed to sufficiently reduce the back EMF in the motors and therefore reduce the current draw then you can pretty much apply full power and you continuously have ‘full power’ actually applied to the motors as opposed to a mechanical gearbox, as you say in the 197’s case it is a ZF 5 speed gear box which is much more like a car where you would take full power but the revs increase and drop as the gears change meaning you’re not always getting ‘full power’ applied.

With an electric motor as well, power peaks around 50% of its rated RPM whilst its efficiency is highest at around 90% RPM. The diesel engine can also run at a constant speed if full power is applied unlike with the mechanical gear box.

All in all, does make a lot of sense !

The climb to Llanvihangel being a case in point. Their mid range acceleration is pretty good. I recall an early run on one from Reading to Paddington with 12 mark 1s. Start to stop was 25 minutes, very similar to HSTs at the time.

197s acceleration at a low speed is fantastic, but that tails off as you go through the gears. Having multiple gears is a big improvement over the previous 2 stage transmissions on the older DMUs for hill climbing.

Going up Llanviihangel, a 150/153 will normally clear the summit at around 55, a 158 58, a 175 63, a 197 somewhere between 68 or 76 depending on which power mode is selected, and a 67 around 73. The difference is the 197 will get up to that speed fairly quickly, then the acceleration will fall off a cliff in top gear. The 67 will take a while to get going, but when it does it'll keep on accelerating relentlessly.

Traction motor fault on 67012. 1 Traction motor now isolated to allow it to remain in service.

Says a lot for 67s that they can still stay pretty close to time even on 75% power.

Didn't know that Holyhead drivers work all the way to Swansea!

They don't. Only Cardiff crews work 67 services between there and Swansea.

 

[sd0733]

67012 will be swapped off at Canton for repairs being replaced by 67010. There will br several diagram step ups of the other sets to allow this to happen.

Unfortunately HD06 had brake issues on prep and didn't make it out. Replaced by a 197, hopefully it will be out for the 12:49 from Cardiff which us it's next booked work today.

 

[BillStampy]

Didn't know that Holyhead drivers work all the way to Swansea!

He said he worked it from Shrewsbury to Swansea, not from Cardiff.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I use the same braking points for 75mph in a 150/153 as from 90 in a 175/197. There's a lot to be said for disk brakes/engine brakes over brake blocks!

Wow yeah! Certainly counts for a lot then! I’ve only ever driven 158’s so not much to compare to.

67, 68 and 88 are all exempt - as far as I know they're the only ones.

Oh well that’s good to know!

197s acceleration at a low speed is fantastic, but that tails off as you go through the gears. Having multiple gears is a big improvement over the previous 2 stage transmissions on the older DMUs for hill climbing.

Certainly sounds like a big improvement. From the guys who’ve driven them on the Cambrian, it’s sounds like climbing Tallerdig they’re knocking the power back to avoid over speeding. Which does make sense really as although, as far as I can tell, the gradient is steeper, the max speed is only 80KPH which is only 49.7mph.

 

[BillStampy]

HD02 has now also kicked the bucket on its diagram, no longer allocated to head North, now sat on Canton

 

[Newp410]

HD02 has now also kicked the bucket on its diagram, no longer allocated to head North, now sat on Canton

197117 pinched off 2G48 to work 1W55.

 

[MP393]

67012 has remained on HD03 at the minute to work 1W57 10:52 Cardiff - Manchester.

 

[craigybagel]

He said he worked it from Shrewsbury to Swansea, not from Cardiff.

Assuming you're talking about the 1630 Manchester - Swansea; that service is indeed worked by the same driver from Shrewsbury to Swansea, but it's a Cardiff driver.

 

[BillStampy]

Assuming you're talking about the 1630 Manchester - Swansea; that service is indeed worked by the same driver from Shrewsbury to Swansea, but it's a Cardiff driver.

Yeah, that's correct.

 

[sd0733]

67012 has remained on HD03 at the minute to work 1W57 10:52 Cardiff - Manchester.

Seems all plans are out the window with 2 failures on Canton.
After a promising spell, a terrible few days for performance.

 

[MP393]

Seems all plans are out the window with 2 failures on Canton.
After a promising spell, a terrible few days for performance.

It’s not performing too badly with an isolated traction motor but it’s out of my knowledge how much knock that would have on performance. It certainly doesn’t seemed to have fared much worse climbing Llanvihangel than other runs. I guess with it now sticking to this diagram it gets it back home to ATC which may make a Loco change easier if there’s one knocking about.