Chiltern Railways - Notice of intended prosecution

[railgirlnew]

Hi all,

I’m very worried as I received this letter (posted below) last night.

Basically, I went to wembley station but the ticket machine wasn’t working so I tapped in using my oyster card and tapped out at Marylebone. At Marylebone, I went to the ticket counter and showed them that I purchased a ticket and would liked it to be dispensed. The man told me it was not valid because my rail card was incorrect so I purchased a new ticket for this journey and carried on with my day. I was never told that I would receive a letter. Looking into this, I see that I’ve only purchased two tickets on this rail card.

I did try to speak to someone at chiltern rails this morning (costumer relations) and she said it was strange that I bought a ticket for the whole journey again. I didn’t think anything of this at the time as I was late for work. I also called TFL (this morning) to get a history of my journeys but since this is older that 8 weeks there’s no way to pull the record.

With regards to the journey at hand (which they said I did not have a valid ticket for the whole journey) - I did pay for the whole thing - via oyster for the initial part from wembley to Marylbone and then a ticket from the Marlybone station.

Could I be in trouble? I’m not sure how to nativigate this. I’ve emailed them back apologizing for any inconvenience this has caused and have explained myself. Im just seeking support here on what’s likely going to happen as I am very distressed

 

[Gloster]

I suggest that you obscure your name at the top of the letter.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi all,

I’m very worried as I received this letter (posted below) last night.

Basically, I went to wembley station but the ticket machine wasn’t working so I tapped in using my oyster card and tapped out at Marylebone. At Marylebone, I went to the ticket counter and showed them that I purchased a ticket and would liked it to be dispensed. The man told me it was not valid because my rail card was incorrect so I purchased a new one and carried on with my day.

In what way was your railcard "incorrect"?

What was the new ticket you purchased, which stations did it cover, and did it have a railcard discount attached?

I was never told that I would receive a letter. Looking into this, I see that I’ve only purchased two tickets on this rail card.

I did try to speak to someone at chiltern rails and she said it was strange that I bought a ticket for the whole journey again.

Who did you speak to? Which department?

I didn’t think anything of this at the time as I was late for work. I also called TFL to get a history of my journeys but since this is older that 8 weeks there’s no way to pull the record.

Is there any reason Chiltern might have to think you did not in fact travel from Wembley Stadium? Bearing in mind they have access to your purchase history, and home and billing address.

 

[Haywain]

it was not valid because my rail card was incorrect so I purchased a new one

Purchased a new what - railcard or ticket?

 

[railgirlnew]

I suggest that you obscure your name at the top of the letter.

Hi, amended. Thank you

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Purchased a new what - railcard or ticket?

Purchased a new ticket. Let me amend my post to make this more clear.

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In what way was your railcard "incorrect"?

What was the new ticket you purchased, which stations did it cover, and did it have a railcard discount attached?



Who did you speak to? Which department?


Is there any reason Chiltern might have to think you did not in fact travel from Wembley Stadium? Bearing in mind they have access to your purchase history, and home and billing address.

I spoke to the customer relations department. I also don’t have any reason for them to think I didn’t pay, but from reading all the forums I can see how serious this is and I don’t want to be in any type of legal issue.

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Hi, amended. Thank you

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Purchased a new ticket. Let me amend my post to make this more clear.

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I spoke to the customer relations department. I also don’t have any reason for them to think I didn’t pay, but from reading all the forums I can see how serious this is and I don’t want to be in any type of legal issue.

I purchased a network rail card last year when I first moved to England. It was valid for a year. I only used it this year on 3 occasions for work (the third occasion where he told me it was incorrect - I don’t remember what he said as it was a while ago but I just purchased the correct ticket at full fare and I didn’t ever need to use the rail card again)

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The new ticket I purchased was from wembley stadium to Letchworth garden city. There was no discounts attached.

 

[AlterEgo]

As long as you paid your fare from Wembley Stadium using your Oyster you have committed no offence. Chiltern are unable to realistically mount a prosecution for the other, historic occasion either.

 

[island]

So let me check my understanding.

1. You purchased a ticket from Wembley Stadium to Letchworth GC with a discount you weren't entitled to.
2. You didn't collect the ticket at Wembley Stadium.
3. You used an Oyster card to travel from Wembley Stadium to London Marylebone.
4. At London Marylebone you went to a counter (why? you normally collect tickets from ticket machine) and were asked for the Railcard. You didn't produce one. Your details were taken.
5. You purchased a new full price ticket from (where?) to Letchworth GC.

Is that right?

If that is the correct sequence of events it does not appear to me that you have committed any offences.

I wonder if the officer whom you spoke with at Marylebone did not know/realise/work out that you had a valid ticket in the form of your Oyster card. Did you tell them you had touched in?

 

[Haywain]

I purchased a network rail card last year when I first moved to England. It was valid for a year. I only used it this year on 3 occasions for work (the third occasion where he told me it was incorrect - I don’t remember what he said as it was a while ago but I just purchased the correct ticket at full fare and I didn’t ever need to use the rail card again)

I think we need more help here. At what time were you travelling from Wembley Stadium? Did you leave before 10:00? Or was your Network Railcard out of date?

 

[railgirlnew]

So let me check my understanding.

1. You purchased a ticket from Wembley Stadium to Letchworth GC with a discount you weren't entitled to.
2. You didn't collect the ticket at Wembley Stadium.
3. You used an Oyster card to travel from Wembley Stadium to London Marylebone.
4. At London Marylebone you went to a counter (why? you normally collect tickets from ticket machine) and were asked for the Railcard. You didn't produce one. Your details were taken.
5. You purchased a new full price ticket from (where?) to Letchworth GC.

Is that right?

If that is the correct sequence of events it does not appear to me that you have committed any offences.

I wonder if the officer whom you spoke with at Marylebone did not know/realise/work out that you had a valid ticket in the form of your Oyster card. Did you tell them you had touched in?

1. I purchased it on Trainline app with the railway card attached to it. At this point, I did not know that the railway card was incorrect.
2. At wembley stadium, the machine was not working (it wasn’t printing and there was no person around) so I tapped in using my oyster and tapped out at Marlyebone.
4. I just went to a counter, I don’t have a reason for this. I didn’t think there was anything wrong with what I did. He asked for my rail card and I showed it to him and he said it was incorrect. He then told me to buy a new ticket so I just did that. Again, I didn’t think anything of this as I felt like I made a mistake and corrected it by purchasing the correct ticket. Also, he didn’t ask me if I used my oyster or how I got to Marlebone
5. I purchased a new ticket from wembley stadium to Letchworth garden city. I realise now that I should have purchased it from Marlybone to Letchworth but at the time it didn’t seem to be an issue to me as I was paying them for the whole thing in light of a mistake I made (although I did technically pay for my journey to Marlybone using my oyster).


I am just very distressed about this as this seems to be very severe and I am worried about my job.

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I think we need more help here. At what time were you travelling from Wembley Stadium? Did you leave before 10:00? Or was your Network Railcard out of date?

I left before 10:00. Network rail card was valid for the period I was travelling in.

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As long as you paid your fare from Wembley Stadium using your Oyster you have committed no offence. Chiltern are unable to realistically mount a prosecution for the other, historic occasion either.

I also agree here. That’s why I called TFL to provide a journey history for the portion of the journey between Wembley stadium to Marlybone. But they are unable to provide this as it is past 8 weeks. I provided children a screenshot of my bank statement to show that I purchased the ticket at marlybone for the journey. This is all I have as proof.

 

[railgirlnew]

For completeness - this was the email I sent back to them.

“Good day sir/madam,

I hope this email finds you well.

I received an email dated 19 August for an intention to prosecute for a train journey dated Monday 29th April 2024 between Wembley Stadium to Letchworth Garden city.

I tapped into Wembley Stadium using my oyster card and tapped out before going to the ticket office to collect tickets I had purchased. The ticketing officer told me I had purchased incorrect tickets and I was prompted to purchase the correct ticket for my journey to Letchworth Garden City. I did this at the ticket desk and have proof of this on my bank statement attached to this email.


Please let me know if there are any discrepancies as I’d like to correct this as soon as possible - as a trainee xxx any legal issues against me has serious effects on my career and in no way had I intended to cause any financial harm to Chiltern Railways.

I sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this has caused and looking forward to your response”

In light of everything,
1) when could I expect a response?
2) would Chiltern take me to court?
3) I have no way of proving I tapped my oyster as I can’t access records longer than 8 weeks.

 

[Haywain]

4. I just went to a counter, I don’t have a reason for this.

Was this a counter at the main ticket office at Marylebone, after you had passed through the ticket barrier there?

 

[railgirlnew]

Was this a counter at the main ticket office at Marylebone, after you had passed through the ticket barrier there?

Yes the counter at marylebone. I tapped in and out for the previous journey using my oyster card.

 

[AlterEgo]

Your email back wasn’t strong enough. What are you apologising for in the response?

 

[railgirlnew]

Your email back wasn’t strong enough. What are you apologising for in the response?

I was apologizing for the inconvenience of this issue. I understand now that it was not strong enough but it has already been sent.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Was this a counter at the main ticket office at Marylebone, after you had passed through the ticket barrier there?

Most likely the Excess Fares window on the paid side of the barriers, thus also within a Compulsory Ticket Area.

 

[WesternLancer]

So is the nub of this that the OP needs to be able to persuade Chiltern (or ideally prove) that they had paid for the journey with a correct fare between Wembley Stadium and Marylebone?
Which the OP actually did with an Oyster Card because they could not retrieve their tickets form the ticket machine before boarding (tickets that in the event turned out not to be valid but as they were never used means no offence was committed)
But the problem is that the OP has no way of proving that the Oyster Card was touched in and out for the journey from Wembley to Marylebone?

And the above reply has already been sent back to Chiltern already now?

So what is the best advice for the OP?

a) is there any other way to access the Oyster records for a period longer than 8 weeks? (eg if the OP registers their Oyster Card on line to get car use history) - I presume there are ways to get Oyster records for longer ago as Tfl or rail operators would get them if they needed to use them as evidence in a prosecution would they not....but perhaps that isn't available to passengers?

b) The OP has no bank account records showing a fare paid from Wembley touch in if used Oyster PAYG as opposed to Contactless bank card?

c) await the reply from Chiltern and see what it says? then help the OP craft a further response that will have a better chance of persuading Chiltern that she paid by Oyster for the travel undertaken up to the point she poke to staff at Marylebone, and on their advice bought a new ticket for onward travel to Hitchin which was then valid.

Seems to me that the OP is possibly due a refund for the original Wembley to Hitchin ticket on the basis that it was never used. But I can see that is not @railgirlnew 's immediate problem!

I'm thinking it may be that (c) is the option that now exists, and the advice should be to the OP that when she receives a reply to her e-mail to head back here on what to do next, and to get that response as good as it can be with help from experts here, before sending it back to Chiltern.

 

[furlong]

1) It is crucial to be certain that the interaction happened AFTER touching out and passing through the barriers and NOT at the excess fares window inside the barriers.

2) Did you buy the new ticket from the person you were speaking to at the counter at the time?

 

[railgirlnew]

Hi everyone, thank you so much for your support so far. This has helped my anxiety a lot. I appreciate. I just wanted to give you all an update and also possible advice on how to navigate this. I emailed prosecution about the issue and this is what they have said. The issue now seems to be this:
1) I did not have a valid rail card

On instruction of the email, I sent them my rail card. I see that I had a network rail card but I accidentally used 16-25 rail card for the 3 purchases.

How would Chiltern proceed with this? I made a genuine mistake on the Trainline app. Having a look now, I see the discounted fare is the same for both 16-25 and the network railcard.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi everyone, thank you so much for your support so far. This has helped my anxiety a lot. I appreciate. I just wanted to give you all an update and also possible advice on how to navigate this. I emailed prosecution about the issue and this is what they have said. The issue now seems to be this:
1) I did not have a valid rail card

On instruction of the email, I sent them my rail card. I see that I had a network rail card but I accidentally used 16-25 rail card for the 3 purchases.

How would Chiltern proceed with this? I made a genuine mistake on the Trainline app. Having a look now, I see the discounted fare is the same for both 16-25 and the network railcard.

The discount is the same, but the Network Card is also not valid until 1000 on weekdays. Thats why people have asked about the exact time you were travelling.

 

[AlterEgo]

You are under no obligation to send them any such railcard and you should not have corresponded with them before receiving advice here. You should not have apologised. They are not able to mount a realistic prosecution under the Bylaws for instances in which they did not stop and identify you and interview you.

Were you stopped by an inspector as the Chiltern email alleges? You make no mention of this in your opening post.

 

[railgirlnew]

The discount is the same, but the Network Card is also not valid until 1000 on weekdays. Thats why people have asked about the exact time you were travelling.

I understand now. This makes sense - I purchased a full price ticket that morning after the ticket dispenser told me to. How do you think Chiltern would proceed? Would I be taken to court?

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You are under no obligation to send them any such railcard and you should not have corresponded with them before receiving advice here. You should not have apologised. They are not able to mount a realistic prosecution under the Bylaws for instances in which they did not stop and identify you and interview you.

Were you stopped by an inspector as the Chiltern email alleges? You make no mention of this in your opening post.

No I was never stopped by an inspector.
I was only told my rail card was invalid when I went to the desk to collect tickets purchased using the Trainline app. The issue (in my opinion) was remediated as I purchased a new ticket at the desk (and this was full fare)

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone, thank you so much for your support so far. This has helped my anxiety a lot. I appreciate. I just wanted to give you all an update and also possible advice on how to navigate this. I emailed prosecution about the issue and this is what they have said. The issue now seems to be this:
1) I did not have a valid rail card

On instruction of the email, I sent them my rail card. I see that I had a network rail card but I accidentally used 16-25 rail card for the 3 purchases.

How would Chiltern proceed with this? I made a genuine mistake on the Trainline app. Having a look now, I see the discounted fare is the same for both 16-25 and the network railcard.

Thanks for clarifying that - but if you used your Oyster to get from Wembley to Marylebone it does not matter anyway - and if you bought a new ticket for the onwards journey you did not use the ticket with the wrong railcard discount - so I can't see how you committed an offence. The problem is persuading Chiltern of this...or so it seems to me.

So they need to be persuaded that the railcard for tickets you never used is not what they need to be looking at. Your reply needs to focus on that I think, but get your reply checked here if you want that to be effective. I would advise not just responding back to them quickly as that is not helping your case (or helping them understand your case).

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for clarifying that - but if you used your Oyster to get from Wembley to Marylebone it does not matter anyway - and if you bought a new ticket for the onwards journey you did not use the ticket with the wrong railcard discount - so I can't see how you committed an offence. The problem is persuading Chiltern of this...or so it seems to me.

Chiltern need to show the OP didn’t have a ticket, which they are unable to do. They were not stopped, no evidential report appears to have been submitted and no interview was made. A robust response outlining this and addressing the single incident would be sufficient.

This is a speculative fishing letter by our greedy friends at Chiltern.

 

[island]

Yes the counter at marylebone. I tapped in and out for the previous journey using my oyster card.

Which counter?

Did you tap out and go through the barriers before going to the counter?

Why did you try to go to a counter and not a ticket machine? Ticket collection is normally from a ticket machine.

 

[railgirlnew]

Chiltern need to show the OP didn’t have a ticket, which they are unable to do. They were not stopped, no evidential report appears to have been submitted and no interview was made. A robust response outlining this and addressing the single incident would be sufficient.

This is a speculative fishing letter by our greedy friends at Chiltern.

I’m just waiting to see their response as I did reply showing the railway card. In their response I will outline what has happened. I am not sure how I should go forward as I don’t want to seem aggressive or not compliant with them but their account of the situation is inconsistent (ie they said in the letter that I did not have a valid ticket for the whole journey and then in email they said I was unable to show a valid rail card. I also was never stopped by an inspector and this happened at the desk)

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Which counter?

Did you tap out and go through the barriers before going to the counter?

Why did you try to go to a counter and not a ticket machine? Ticket collection is normally from a ticket machine.

Yes. Tapped in and out before going to the desk. Waited in line and went to go collect tickets but had to repurchase the ticket at full fare. I don’t know why I went to the desk, I just went quickly and stood in line. Again, I didn’t think I did anything wrong so I don’t really have an answer to why I did this

 

[Haywain]

I’m just waiting to see their response as I did reply showing the railway card.

The railcard does not appear to be the issue, rather it is that the discounted ticket was not valid at that time.

Chiltern need to show the OP didn’t have a ticket, which they are unable to do.

The OP equally cannot show anything to the contrary.

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How do you think Chiltern would proceed?

It's difficult to know but I think a new letter or email setting out clearly what happened would be appropriate. It needs to be clear though, noting how many questions we have had to ask.

 

[WesternLancer]

Which counter?

Did you tap out and go through the barriers before going to the counter?

I assume the point of checking this is that if the OP tapped out and went through the barriers before going to a ticket desk to obtain their tickets they had completed the 1st leg of their journey using an Oyster card and by tapping out had paid for it too.

The failure here seems to be the staff member at that desk understanding, or not being told or or not asking and thus having had it explained to them, that the leg of the journey completed at this point from Wembley to Marylebone was not undertaken with the tickets bought with the wrong railcard, which were therefore invalid, but bought with the Oyster Card and thus valid.

If I have this correct this surely has to be the focus of communications with Chiltern over this, to get them to understand and accept this point.

 

[AlterEgo]

The OP equally cannot show anything to the contrary.

It doesn't matter at this stage. It is Chiltern who must prove the case and they cannot.

 

[Haywain]

It doesn't matter at this stage. It is Chiltern who must prove the case and they cannot.

I think it does matter - if you're accused of something in court it's always better to have evidence to disprove it. However, at present the priority is to resolve the matter without it getting that far.

 

[railgirlnew]

I think it does matter - if you're accused of something in court it's always better to have evidence to disprove it. However, at present the priority is to resolve the matter without it getting that far.

The only proof I have is the bank statement to show that I paid - it has the full amount, the name chiltern and Marylebone. I have my Trainline app with the original ticket (which was never dispensed) and the network rail card I used.

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The only proof I have is the bank statement to show that I paid - it has the full amount, the name chiltern and Marylebone. I have my Trainline app with the original ticket (which was never dispensed) and the network rail card I used.

I understand that the network rail card was not the card that was applied to the ticket (it was the 16-25 one) but I ended up paying full fare.