Future Northern Line extension to Clapham Junction

[gsc777]

Was driving through Mitcham Town Centre yesterday and came to the realisation that even with two National Rail stations and a tram stop all on the outskirts, the reality is that only a London Underground station in the middle of the town centre could save this sleepy town (and there really is the perfect overground space for station entrances to be made), which got me wondering about the extensions possible. I read that there was a Tooting Broadway extension planned some time ago that never came to fruition (would have been cool to see a Mitcham Town—Mill Hill East service).

It got me thinking about the planned Northern Line (eventually a new underground line, apparently) extension to Clapham Junction, once Crossrail 2 is up and running, and I wondered: could the extension to Clapham Junction be taken all the way to Sutton? Underground, it leaves Clapham Junction, connecting at Balham, then (with maybe a stop in Streatham along the way), Mitcham Eastfields, quickly turning in to Mitcham Town Centre, then back over to Mitcham Junction for the tram connection, then stops at Hackbridge, Carshalton and Sutton. Then, the National Rail stations via Hackbridge were removed or maybe converted to limited use, and the line instead became a fast line from Sutton for Southern services to Victoria, and Thameslink services to Blackfriars? With the line via West Croydon remaining as the semi-fast line (running fast to London Bridge via Norwood Junction), and the stopping service becoming the Tube?

How would people feel about this? I feel like this could, if the budget existed, work really well, and the people of Hackbridge, Carshalton or Mitcham who missed their fast London services could change at Sutton or Clapham Junction for fast trains to Victoria, Blackfriars or LBG, but are instead gifted with direct services to Charing Cross, Leicester Square and Euston, and options to travel north of Zone 1 without change, and vice versa for southbound passengers. Plus, the changeover at Balham for Bank branch services would be even easier! Sutton is already a great hub for rail services, and a fast line from Victoria could prompt more direct services into the Mole Valley and a second route for fast or SF services into the Arun Valley and down to West Coastway, especially if this coincided with rerouting the Rainham Thameslinks to Epsom (and potentially Guildford) via West Croydon and Sutton.

Thoughts?

 

[Wolfie]

Was driving through Mitcham Town Centre yesterday and came to the realisation that even with two National Rail stations and a tram stop all on the outskirts, the reality is that only a London Underground station in the middle of the town centre could save this sleepy town (and there really is the perfect overground space for station entrances to be made), which got me wondering about the extensions possible. I read that there was a Tooting Broadway extension planned some time ago that never came to fruition (would have been cool to see a Mitcham Town—Mill Hill East service).

It got me thinking about the planned Northern Line (eventually a new underground line, apparently) extension to Clapham Junction, once Crossrail 2 is up and running, and I wondered: could the extension to Clapham Junction be taken all the way to Sutton? Underground, it leaves Clapham Junction, connecting at Balham, then (with maybe a stop in Streatham along the way), Mitcham Eastfields, quickly turning in to Mitcham Town Centre, then back over to Mitcham Junction for the tram connection, then stops at Hackbridge, Carshalton and Sutton. Then, the National Rail stations via Hackbridge were removed or maybe converted to limited use, and the line instead became a fast line from Sutton for Southern services to Victoria, and Thameslink services to Blackfriars? With the line via West Croydon remaining as the semi-fast line (running fast to London Bridge via Norwood Junction), and the stopping service becoming the Tube?

How would people feel about this? I feel like this could, if the budget existed, work really well, and the people of Hackbridge, Carshalton or Mitcham who missed their fast London services could change at Sutton or Clapham Junction for fast trains to Victoria, Blackfriars or LBG, but are instead gifted with direct services to Charing Cross, Leicester Square and Euston, and options to travel north of Zone 1 without change, and vice versa for southbound passengers. Plus, the changeover at Balham for Bank branch services would be even easier! Sutton is already a great hub for rail services, and a fast line from Victoria could prompt more direct services into the Mole Valley and a second route for fast or SF services into the Arun Valley and down to West Coastway, especially if this coincided with rerouting the Rainham Thameslinks to Epsom (and potentially Guildford) via West Croydon and Sutton.

Thoughts?

Given the significant extant National rail services in the area, the likely cost of your proposal, and a probable poor business cost return case l wouldn't exactly hold your breath.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I have thought this before as well. Mitcham is crying out for an Underground station as is Streatham. I believe it was on one of the many looked at pathways for Crossrail 2. I like to think in an alternative world the Victoria Line continued straight on at Stockwell, becoming a sort of express line following the Northern to Tooting Broadway, then running via Mitcham and along the Wimbledon to West Croydon line into Croydon.

 

[MPW]

If doing that on the east side of Sutton loop, why not take over the whole of the sutton loop from streatham southwards. That frees up capacity for other rail services where there is conflict currently.

The higher frequency on sutton loop and improved connectivity would help alleviate concerns about their big trains being replaced by small tubes.

I think that also helps with the capacity issue because passengers could use the loop to connect to faster more comfortable national rail services at Wimbledon.

Then my dream of world domination would be complete. At least the first stage: getting the sutton loop out of my way at herne hill and blackfriars.

 

[gsc777]

If doing that on the east side of Sutton loop, why not take over the whole of the sutton loop from streatham southwards. That frees up capacity for other rail services where there is conflict currently.

The higher frequency on sutton loop and improved connectivity would help alleviate concerns about their big trains being replaced by small tubes.

I think that also helps with the capacity issue because passengers could use the loop to connect to faster more comfortable national rail services at Wimbledon.

Then my dream of world domination would be complete. At least the first stage: getting the sutton loop out of my way at herne hill and blackfriars.

I think there could be an issue with making a tube extension too long, but I do see the vision. I could definitely see an argument for taking it to Morden since there's already a depot there, branching off at Morden South. Then West Sutton, Sutton Common, South Merton and Morden South mainline stations could be removed and the line could become fast between Wimbledon and Sutton?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2024 ==

I have thought this before as well. Mitcham is crying out for an Underground station as is Streatham. I believe it was on one of the many looked at pathways for Crossrail 2. I like to think in an alternative world the Victoria Line continued straight on at Stockwell, becoming a sort of express line following the Northern to Tooting Broadway, then running via Mitcham and along the Wimbledon to West Croydon line into Croydon.

For better or for worse, I think it's best to leave the Victoria Line as it is. It's function was never really to provide services outside of Central London, just to be a contained shuttle, really. Anything south of Vauxhall and east of Tottenham Hale was just an added bonus as they tried to find somewhere to terminate the line.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

If doing that on the east side of Sutton loop, why not take over the whole of the sutton loop from streatham southwards. That frees up capacity for other rail services where there is conflict currently.

The higher frequency on sutton loop and improved connectivity would help alleviate concerns about their big trains being replaced by small tubes.

I think that also helps with the capacity issue because passengers could use the loop to connect to faster more comfortable national rail services at Wimbledon.

Then my dream of world domination would be complete. At least the first stage: getting the sutton loop out of my way at herne hill and blackfriars.

This is something I’ve also dreamed about too - how to sort out the crumby Thameslink route south of Blackfriars. Perhaps the best option would be to prune it to a simple Wimbledon to Blackfriars service, every 15 mins and make it an Overground rather than a Thameslink route. Build interchanges at Streatham Common and Leigham Vale and open some new stations at Camberwell, Walworth, Furzedown and on Tooting High Street. Rename Haydons Road while you’re at it to something like “Wimbledon North”.

Ideally you’d want it to run to Farringdon to interchange it with Crossrail though.

I’ve also wondered about running it from Blackfriars to Streatham Hill and terminating it there, leaving the Sutton Loop to take over the London Bridge via Dulwich route. Again with interchanges at Leigham Vale and Streatham Common.

 

[gsc777]

This is something I’ve also dreamed about too - how to sort out the crumby Thameslink route south of Blackfriars. Perhaps the best option would be to prune it to a simple Wimbledon to Blackfriars service, every 15 mins and make it an Overground rather than a Thameslink route. Build interchanges at Streatham Common and Leigham Vale and open some new stations at Camberwell, Walworth, Furzedown and on Tooting High Street. Rename Haydons Road while you’re at it to something like “Wimbledon North”.

Ideally you’d want it to run to Farringdon to interchange it with Crossrail though.

I’ve also wondered about running it from Blackfriars to Streatham Hill and terminating it there, leaving the Sutton Loop to take over the London Bridge via Dulwich route. Again with interchanges at Leigham Vale and Streatham Common.

This might sound a little privileged of me, but in this day and age we really shouldn't have to have National Rail metro services in a city with the Underground, one of the most famous metro networks in the world. It promotes this idea that not all London era are created equal and are not all equally deserving of the same services.

Also, I dislike that we've normalised Overground services just being glorified National Rail services with central London termini. People going into central London should have two options: the tube for slower, reliable services and the National Rail for faster but more expensive connectivity. Overground services should serve to connect suburban areas of each other, without needing people to go through Central London in order to get around London. I get that necessity calls sometimes, like with the DC Line and the Lea Valley Lines, but if we're making new Overground networks they should serve to connect us to each other, not connecting us to central London so we can get to each other.

All of that said, an Overground line isn't the worst idea! What I would do is, rather than send it to Blackfriars, for it to go through the local areas of Lambeth and then turn and head towards South East London, connecting areas in Zones 2, 3 and 4, or perhaps even stretching towards the fast-developing Thamesmead, maybe with an EL connection at Abbey Wood. A connection from SE London to Wimbledon would be cool!!

 

[The exile]

This might sound a little privileged of me, but in this day and age we really shouldn't have to have National Rail metro services in a city with the Underground, one of the most famous metro networks in the world. It promotes this idea that not all London era are created equal and are not all equally deserving of the same services.

Whyever not? I’m hard pressed to think of a large European city that doesn’t have an equivalent of “National Rail” suburban services, whether or not it also has an underground.

 

[FlyingPotato]

I think they were looking at extending the northern Line to Clapham junction but decided not to as they trains would just be full basically instantly in the peaks, so no one at places like Battersea would be able to get on

 

[HSTEd]

The Northern Line to Clapham Junction is an obvious move, but would overwhelm the line as it currently exists.
If the Northern Line split could be completed then there would likely be spare capacity for the extension.

 

[swt_passenger]

This was also discussed last month, initially as an extension to Battersea Park or Queenstown Road, but it also discussed the reasoning behind not yet going to Clapham Junction:

Northern line extension to Battersea Park or Queenstown Road

Of course a Northern line extension beyond Battersea Power Station to Clapham Junction would be amazing, but the trains would all fill up, so we need to wait for Crossrail 2. But that doesn’t look like it’s going to happen anytime soon. For now, could the Northern line be extended to either...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[cle]

The Northern Line to Clapham Junction is an obvious move, but would overwhelm the line as it currently exists.
If the Northern Line split could be completed then there would likely be spare capacity for the extension.

I firmly believe that after a split, Clapham Junction could easily handle 30-32tph Northern lines without them being full.

Something like 12tph tops at Battersea PS station right now so I'm sure it would be an upgrade for there - plus access to NR at Clapham itself which I'm sure would be useful - there is Battersea Park station too of course.

It would also be a good move for the local market/catchment - alleviating NR trains. Zone 2 inner places should really be on tubes, vs taking hops to Victoria and Waterloo.

 

[Mgameing123]

This might sound a little privileged of me, but in this day and age we really shouldn't have to have National Rail metro services in a city with the Underground, one of the most famous metro networks in the world. It promotes this idea that not all London era are created equal and are not all equally deserving of the same services.

Also, I dislike that we've normalised Overground services just being glorified National Rail services with central London termini. People going into central London should have two options: the tube for slower, reliable services and the National Rail for faster but more expensive connectivity. Overground services should serve to connect suburban areas of each other, without needing people to go through Central London in order to get around London. I get that necessity calls sometimes, like with the DC Line and the Lea Valley Lines, but if we're making new Overground networks they should serve to connect us to each other, not connecting us to central London so we can get to each other.

All of that said, an Overground line isn't the worst idea! What I would do is, rather than send it to Blackfriars, for it to go through the local areas of Lambeth and then turn and head towards South East London, connecting areas in Zones 2, 3 and 4, or perhaps even stretching towards the fast-developing Thamesmead, maybe with an EL connection at Abbey Wood. A connection from SE London to Wimbledon would be cool!!

London Overground is just London Metro services ran by TFL. Nothing much else.

 

[floor3013]

There's no chance of this happening before Crossrail 2 or the line split for the reasons mentioned, although I do wonder if a Northern line extension to Clapham Junction and then on to Balham could be completed with (i.e. combined station/tunneling works) Crossrail 2, allowing Crossrail 2 then to run direct from Wimbledon while the NLE relieves the Morden line at Balham.

 

[PTR 444]

While this proposal is unlikely to go ahead, you can’t ignore the fact that Mitcham is rather poorly connected by rail for a sizeable London suburb. Eastfields is the nearest station to the town centre, but that is half a mile anway and didn’t even open until 2008. Between 1997 and 2000 there was no Mitcham station on the Wimbledon - West Croydon line either.

You could argue on that basis that Mitcham needs a Tube station in the town centre. Perhaps a branch of the Northern Line from Colliers Wood could do the trick.

 

[JonathanH]

While this proposal is unlikely to go ahead, you can’t ignore the fact that Mitcham is rather poorly connected by rail for a sizeable London suburb.

Whilst that is true, the people who live there aren't oblivious to that, and presumably make rational decisions about their travel arrangements on that basis. Just because it isn't directly connected to the underground doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be.

 

[Mgameing123]

Whilst that is true, the people who live there aren't oblivious to that, and presumably make rational decisions about their travel arrangements on that basis. Just because it isn't directly connected to the underground doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be.

I mean Mitcham would be an “easy” extension as Morden isn’t very high demand from what I can imagine.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

There's no chance of this happening before Crossrail 2 or the line split for the reasons mentioned, although I do wonder if a Northern line extension to Clapham Junction and then on to Balham could be completed with (i.e. combined station/tunneling works) Crossrail 2, allowing Crossrail 2 then to run direct from Wimbledon while the NLE relieves the Morden line at Balham.

I’ve thought of this before. I wish the Northern Line express plans were looked at again.

Whilst that is true, the people who live there aren't oblivious to that, and presumably make rational decisions about their travel arrangements on that basis. Just because it isn't directly connected to the underground doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be.

Sure but I’m guessing the good people of Bermondsey aren’t using the same routes to Central London they used before the Jubilee Line Extenstion opened

 

[cle]

Mitcham is no different to a lot of outer, low density, non-descript London suburbs. Unless a corresponding housing boom is planned?

In fact, I think it's better served than many due having two routes into London (with TL giving more one-seat) - plus Tramlink and all the easy connections at Wimbledon. Balham is another option.

Both the Victoria and TL routes should ideally be 4tph - and then I would say it was pretty good for its importance, population and distance from town.