1984 Brighton Mainline resignalling

[Skimpot flyer]

My nephew was delighted when looking out the window on a trip from Gatwick to East Croydon, as we passed over the slow lines and a train ‘tunnelled underneath us’.
Looking on Google, I saw reference to how the fast and slow lines were ‘swapped’ in the Eighties.
So I assume the ‘Quarry Line’ tracks used to run in parallel to the original pair, never crossing over, and serving Purley, South Croydon etc on what are now the up and down slow lines?

 

[Snow1964]

The Quarry lines were not moved, but some new flyovers were installed north of Croydon to assist getting trains onto the appropriate lines.

From memory there was also an alteration to the 5 tracks between Croydon and South Croydon with a reversible fast in the centre of the 3 fast lines (based on tidal flows of extra peak hour trains towards London in morning and extra trains southbound in evening)

 

[Magdalia]

Railway Magazine August 1983 has a 2 page article Croydon Untangled with before and after maps for Selhurst-South Croydon.

In the before map what were then called the through lines ran through platforms 4 and 5 at East Croydon station and what were then called the local lines ran through platforms 1 and 2.

The 5 running lines were up local, down local, up through, down through and reversible at both ends of East Croydon station.

The flyover that carried the through lines from Selhurst over the West and East Croydon local lines was retained in the remodelling, becoming the fast lines. Between the southern end of the flyover and East Croydon station there are 3 fast lines, up and down with reversible in between, and going from/to platforms 1-3 at East Croydon station. South of East Croydon station there are only 2 fast lines.

A new flyover was built that carries the slow lines from Selhurst over the West Croydon lines, the fast lines to/from London Bridge, and into platforms 4 and 6 at East Croydon. North of East Croydon station there are only 2 slow lines, but south of East Croydon there 3 slow lines, up and down with reversible in between, continuing from platforms 4-6. Platform 5 is mostly used by slow line trains terminating/starting at East Croydon.

Now the 5 running lines are different on each end of East Croydon station:

north end is up fast, reversible fast, down fast, up slow, down slow
south end is up fast, down fast, up slow, reversible slow, down slow

 

[D6130]

My nephew was delighted when looking out the window on a trip from Gatwick to East Croydon, as we passed over the slow lines and a train ‘tunnelled underneath us’.
Looking on Google, I saw reference to how the fast and slow lines were ‘swapped’ in the Eighties.
So I assume the ‘Quarry Line’ tracks used to run in parallel to the original pair, never crossing over, and serving Purley, South Croydon etc on what are now the up and down slow lines?

The OP has specified that they and their nephew were on a trip from Gatwick Airport to East Croydon. Therefore I suspect that they are referring to the bridge that carries the Quarry (Fast) lines over the Redhill (Slow) lines just North of Merstham and Quarry tunnels.

 

[JonathanH]

Therefore I suspect that they are referring to the bridge that carries the Quarry (Fast) lines over the Redhill (Slow) lines just North of Merstham and Quarry tunnels.

That bridge (or its predecessor) has been in place since the lines were built, rather than being an amendment made in the 1980s.

Coulsdon North was on the "Quarry" side of the route but there appears to have been a crossover south of there to get over from the Quarry Line to the Through Line.

All best depicted by this map on the National Library of Scotland set (or the magazine article referred to above)

Side by side georeferenced maps viewer with layer swipe - Map images - National Library of Scotland

maps.nls.uk

 

[Surreytraveller]

Would this explains why the platforms at Selhurst, Thornton Heath etc are numbered the 'wrong way round', with Platform 1 being on the Down side rather than the Up?
I also believe what are platforms 5 & 6 at Purley used to be loops, with connections on the Country End back to the Redhill Line?

 

[30907]

The alternation in the Coulsdon area was that the western (Local) pair of tracks which previously led into C North Station became the Fasts and fed directly into the Quarry Line, while the previous Mains became the Slows and fed into the Redhill route at Stoats Nest Jn.

Would this explains why the platforms at Selhurst, Thornton Heath etc are numbered the 'wrong way round', with Platform 1 being on the Down side rather than the Up?

They were always Local/Slow lines.

I also believe what are platforms 5 & 6 at Purley used to be loops, with connections on the Country End back to the Redhill Line?

Think it was just 6 (down)?

 

[Magdalia]

Some relevant bits of history.

The East Croydon-Redhill route was built first.
The Quarry line and widening to 4 tracks south of East Croydon came later, the Quarry line was built to cross over the Redhill line near the tunnels.
For a long while most traffic south of East Croydon on the local lines was to/from Coulsdon North, nearly all of the traffic south of East Croydon going through Coulsdon North ran on the through lines, whether it was via Redhill or Quarry.
Until the late 1970s the fast Bognor/Portsmouth trains ran via Dorking not Gatwick.
Until the 1983 remodelling Gatwick Airport was served by stopping Brighton and Horsham trains.
Gatwick Express started in 1984 after the East Croydon remodelling was completed.

 

[Rescars]

The reasons behind the strangeness of the original layout lie a long way in the past. When the South Eastern built its original line to Dover via Redhill, parliament envisaged all sorts of problems with the London and Brighton, so forced the sale of the section between Coulsdon and Redhill to the SER. To bypass the bottleneck which had been created and to restore a through route of its own between London and Brighton, the LBSC built the Quarry Line. Coulsdon North was a LBSC station only, whilst Coulsdon South was served by both LBSC and SER.

Following amalgamation there was no need for this separation of traffic, but the local trains to Coulsdon North did prevent the Quarry Line from being reserved for fast trains only. The 1984 resignalling and closure of Coulsdon North helped to sort out the "spaghetti".

Re the loops at Purley, IIRC both platforms 5 and 6 had the benefit of connections to the main line at the south end, but it was a single lead connection.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Thanks all for the information! So if I’m understanding correctly, trains using the Quarry Line have always crossed over the Redhill lines on the bridge my nephew was gleeful about? But that through trains from the South then had to cross on the flat, to get over to the tracks that are now used as the up/down slow?
It was an obvious solution to make the westernmost tracks the up and down slow the fast lines, then.

 

[30907]

Thanks all for the information! So if I’m understanding correctly, trains using the Quarry Line have always crossed over the Redhill lines on the bridge my nephew was gleeful about?

Yes

But that through trains from the South then had to cross on the flat, to get over to the tracks that are now used as the up/down slow?

More or less. The Quarry and Redhill routes diverged at Stoats Nest Jn, while the former (LBSC) Local lines went through Coulsdon N stations and joined the Quarry Lines.

It was an obvious solution to make the westernmost tracks the up and down slow the fast lines, then.

Yes, but it required a lot of work in the Selhurst area, as stated.

 

[Belperpete]

Yes, but it required a lot of work in the Selhurst area, as stated.

I have a copy of the box diagram for Gloucester Rd junction before the remodelling. It is notable how the three 4-track legs of the junction are all configured differently! Coming down from Victoria, the slows are on the LHS and the fasts on the RHS, whereas from Windmill Bridge and on to East Croydon the fasts were on the LHS and the slows on the RHS. Which is why the fasts went over the top, on a flyover, in order to change sides. And then the 4-tracks coming down from Norwood Junction and London Bridge were configured totally differently, with the fasts in the middle and the slows on the outside, needing another flying junction to sort that out.

After the remodelling, the configuration of the fasts and slows beyond Windmill Bridge is now the same as at Selhurst. So they basically put in another flyover to carry the slows over the top in parallel with the existing flyover carrying the fasts, so they no longer change sides. As well as the two local spurs to East Croydon, a number of other spurs were also recovered, such as the West Croydon emergency spur, and the Selhurst to Norwood Junction spur.

 

[Rescars]

I have a copy of the box diagram for Gloucester Rd junction before the remodelling. It is notable how the three 4-track legs of the junction are all configured differently! Coming down from Victoria, the slows are on the LHS and the fasts on the RHS, whereas from Windmill Bridge and on to East Croydon the fasts were on the LHS and the slows on the RHS. Which is why the fasts went over the top, on a flyover, in order to change sides. And then the 4-tracks coming down from Norwood Junction and London Bridge were configured totally differently, with the fasts in the middle and the slows on the outside, needing another flying junction to sort that out.

After the remodelling, the configuration of the fasts and slows beyond Windmill Bridge is now the same as at Selhurst. So they basically put in another flyover to carry the slows over the top in parallel with the existing flyover carrying the fasts, so they no longer change sides. As well as the two local spurs to East Croydon, a number of other spurs were also recovered, such as the West Croydon emergency spur, and the Selhurst to Norwood Junction spur.

And to think the first flyover here was to separate the London and Croydon's atmospheric line from the steam on the London and Brighton.....

 

[WesternLancer]

As a teenage traveller through the area being re-organised in 1983 at the time, it seemed that the most visible changes (new concrete flyover structures etc) seemed to be north of East Croydon in the Selhurst area IIRC - unless that was done later and I've got things muddled up.

Also I'm pretty sure I recall seeing the demolition / removal of Coulsdon North station too, from passing trains. Never used the station when it was open however.

 

[Belperpete]

As you say, the heavy civil engineering was in the Gloucester Rd Junction area. However, the closure of Coulsdon North was key to the swapping of the fast and slow lines. The services that used Coulsdon North were diverted to Smitham, which although on the same geographical side, is accessed by a flyunder, meaning that all the local services could be concentrated on what had been the fast lines.

Part of the justification for closing Coulsdon North was that there were two other stations in close proximity. Smitham in particular was only a few minutes walk away.

I visited it once, a few years before it closed, and it had an air of dereliction and being unloved even then. I think its main use was for stabling purposes.

 

[WesternLancer]

As you say, the heavy civil engineering was in the Gloucester Rd Junction area. However, the closure of Coulsdon North was key to the swapping of the fast and slow lines. The services that used Coulsdon North were diverted to Smitham, which although on the same geographical side, is accessed by a flyunder, meaning that all the local services could be concentrated on what had been the fast lines.

Part of the justification for closing Coulsdon North was that there were two other stations in close proximity. Smitham in particular was only a few minutes walk away.

I visited it once, a few years before it closed, and it had an air of dereliction and being unloved even then. I think its main use was for stabling purposes.

Thanks - yes of course I wish I'd paid a visit before closure now, to have a look round. Disused stations website shows it as a substantial station building.

 

[JonathanH]

As a teenage traveller through the area being re-organised in 1983 at the time, it seemed that the most visible changes (new concrete flyover structures etc) seemed to be north of East Croydon in the Selhurst area IIRC - unless that was done later and I've got things muddled up.

As far as structures go, that must be correct, but the installation of Stoats Nest Junction will also have been a significant change to the track layout, albeit on the flat.

 

[WesternLancer]

As far as structures go, that must be correct, but the installation of Stoats Nest Junction will also have been a significant change to the track layout, albeit on the flat.

Yes. Just not so noticeable to me from passing trains of course. And I maybe didn’t know about the full extent of the works going on.

 

[Belperpete]

This thread quoted by JonathanH elsewhere contains some good diagrams of the changes made in the Gloucester Rd Jcn area:

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...nction-to-selhurst-curve.237895/#post-5874348