Wrong date on Penalty Service statement

[muhammednana10]

I was given a Penalty Fare on 1st August and on my statement I accidentally put 24th July (Week before). My PFN was for accidentally buying a Leeds to Dewsbury when I was travelling from Dewsbury to Leeds ( I had genuinely gotten my arrival and departure tickets wrong way round). I buy the weekly pass usually but because i wasnt going to be travelling all week i brought a return ticket for a day. the Inspector himself said to appeal this as it was an honest error. which I have but my date on statement is wrong. Theres evidence of my original ticket and the paper fine i was given. What will happen in this case. Do Penalty service have access to my previous tickets?

 

[WesternLancer]

I was given a Penalty Fare on 1st August and on my statement I accidentally put 24th July (Week before). My PFN was for accidentally buying a Leeds to Dewsbury when I was travelling from Dewsbury to Leeds ( I had genuinely gotten my arrival and departure tickets wrong way round). I buy the weekly pass usually but because i wasnt going to be travelling all week i brought a return ticket for a day. the Inspector himself said to appeal this as it was an honest error. which I have but my date on statement is wrong. Theres evidence of my original ticket and the paper fine i was given. What will happen in this case. Do Penalty service have access to my previous tickets?

Chances are I fear of appeal being rejected anyway because technically it was wrong ticket. Never mind the date error you made.

But there are 3 stages of Appeal so if you go to stage 2 you can correct that anyway.

Best thing to do is to get advice from experts on Penalty Fares here on the wording to use in your stage 2 of appeal if people think you have good grounds to keep trying it. @furlong often makes good points people can use.

Penalty services are independent of the railway company so I doubt have access to previous tickets but sadly your good record on other occasions is not grounds for an appeal to win iirc. (People here sometimes compare it with like a parking ticket. Just because you pay to park every other day doesn’t mean you get let off a parking ticket the day you forget).

 

[muhammednana10]

I don't think I'll bother with stage 2, although i do feel hard done by. Alot of passengers get given option to buy ticket on the spot (They are purposely fare dodging) whilst I did pay for my journey and still got a penalty fare. Even though he tried to downplay the fine by saying "Just appeal it they'll let you off". I'll take it on the chin and move on as I have already paid my fine and only appealed it as he told me to on the train. I'll be back to my weekly tickets anyway and this problem won't arise

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't think I'll bother with stage 2, although i do feel hard done by. Alot of passengers get given option to buy ticket on the spot (They are purposely fare dodging) whilst I did pay for my journey and still got a penalty fare. Even though he tried to downplay the fine by saying "Just appeal it they'll let you off". I'll take it on the chin and move on as I have already paid my fine and only appealed it as he told me to on the train. I'll be back to my weekly tickets anyway and this problem won't arise

Don’t give up until you have weighed up other advice here.
Sometimes you can get them over turned if the staff didn’t fill in the paperwork correctly.
It’s worth you uploading an image of the document given to you in full with ref number blanked out for people to check it for you.

 

[BongoStar]

There are a few details missing:

1. If you got the origin and destination the other way round on a day return ticket, it should still not make a difference because on ticket inspection you would have both the outward and return tickets on hand to show. And them being day return, would have both been valid for the whole day. Was this not the case?

2. Was there a barrier and how did you cross it?

 

[John R]

There are a few details missing:

1. If you got the origin and destination the other way round on a day return ticket, it should still not make a difference because on ticket inspection you would have both the outward and return tickets on hand to show. And them being day return, would have both been valid for the whole day. Was this not the case?

Except NRCoT says this:-

11.3 A return Ticket must be used in the correct sequence (you must use the outward portion of your return Ticket before you use the return portion). The outward portion of a return Ticket is no longer valid for travel once the return portion has been used

So if you tried to use the return portion to cover the outward journey, you are breaching the conditions of use.

 

[BongoStar]

Except NRCoT says this:-

11.3 A return Ticket must be used in the correct sequence (you must use the outward portion of your return Ticket before you use the return portion). The outward portion of a return Ticket is no longer valid for travel once the return portion has been used

So if you tried to use the return portion to cover the outward journey, you are breaching the conditions of use.

I don't disagree. But at the point of inspection, there is no way to check that. Nothing prevented OP from just presenting the return potion on its own. It's not that the inspectors ask for outward portion (or return portion) when checking for the opposite leg.

In theory, one can purchase a day return, get a lift for outward leg from a colleague and just use return portion on its own, without needing the outward leg. Or more commonly, the return leg remains unused due to a last minute lift.

Just trying to understand whether there is something else to this.

 

[John R]

I don't disagree. But at the point of inspection, there is no way to check that. Nothing prevented OP from just presenting the return potion on its own. It's not that the inspectors ask for outward portion (or return portion) when checking for the opposite leg.

In theory, one can purchase a day return, get a lift for outward leg from a colleague and just use return portion on its own, without needing the outward leg. Or more commonly, the return leg remains unused due to a last minute lift.

Just trying to understand whether there is something else to this.

There’s a very simple way to check whether the return portion is being used first and that is if the ticket is being used immediately after it was purchased.

 

[muhammednana10]

I had gotten a new ticket for the return. I actually ended up getting 1 earlier train then I had booked originally so I just paid extra for a single ticket. Regarding the barriers, I told the security what had happened and he let me through. On the way back I had a new ticket anyway so got through without issue

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

In addition, in the morning Dewsbury always have there barriers open so you can get through anyway, this is why I got on the train in the first place and didn't realise my error, it was only in Leeds I explained to security at barrier of the error and he let me go through

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

I had gotten a new ticket for the return. I actually ended up getting 1 earlier train then I had booked originally so I just paid extra for a single ticket. Regarding the barriers, I told the security what had happened and he let me through. On the way back I had a new ticket anyway so got through without issue

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

In addition, in the morning Dewsbury always have there barriers open so you can get through anyway, this is why I got on the train in the first place and didn't realise my error, it was only in Leeds I explained to security at barrier of the error and he let me go through

To add to this, I didn't realise that the return ticket was a Nothern ticket and on the way there it was a TPE, I didn't know this until the inspector told me, I'm unsure what difference it makes but I guess it does to them as it's 2 different services I am using essentially

 

[BongoStar]

Based on what you are saying, it appears you didn't buy a "day return" but rather ToC specific advance fare and got on a service for which the ticket wasn't valid.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It’s worth you uploading an image of the document given to you in full with ref number blanked out for people to check it for you.

@muhammednana10. Be useful if you could now upload a pic of whatever "penalty" document you were issued, on the date (= Thurs 01AUG2024) that you got stopped.

 

[muhammednana10]

It was for specific journey yes. It wasn't a flexi ticket. I have appealed it once but I don't think it's worth the hassle to use 3 appeals for it. I'll take it on the chin and move on. I have paid the fine and only appealed due to the inspectors advice

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

@muhammednana10. Be useful if you could now upload a pic of whatever "penalty" document you were issued, on the date (= Thurs 01AUG2024) that you got stopped.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Based on what you are saying, it appears you didn't buy a "day return" but rather ToC specific advance fare and got on a service for which the ticket wasn't valid.

Indeed. The only "Nothern" (sic) tickets available for a Dewsbury->Leeds journey are booked train only Advance Singles (route "AP Northern Only"). If the time of the PF being issued is correct, looks like the OP will have travelled into Leeds on a TPE train. Possibly the late running 0716 from Dewsbury headed for Hull, via Leeds.

@muhammednana10. Can you now upload a screenshot of the ticket held (if any) for this journey made on the morning of Thursday 01AUG2024. If it doesn't show a price, could you further advise the price you paid. The PF claims that the reason for being issued was "no ticket".

 

[muhammednana10]

Indeed. The only "Nothern" (sic) tickets available for a Dewsbury->Leeds journey are booked train only Advance Singles (route "AP Northern Only"). If the time of the PF being issued is correct, looks like the OP will have travelled into Leeds on a TPE train. Possibly the late running 0716 from Dewsbury headed for Hull, via Leeds.

@muhammednana10. Can you now upload a screenshot of the ticket held (if any) for this journey made on the morning of Thursday 01AUG2024. If it doesn't show a price, could you further advise the price you paid. The PF claims that the reason for being issued was "no ticket".

I travelled on the 7:25 train which I think goes to Newcastle although not 100% sure as I get off in 1 stop

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I travelled on the 7:25 train which I think goes to Newcastle although not 100% sure as I get off in 1 stop

Think that's a TPE train also, but not sure if it would have arrived into Leeds by 0731. Either way, can you now upload a screenshot of the ticket held (if any) for the journey that was made on the morning of Thursday 01AUG2024. And if the ticket doesn't show a price, could you further advise the price you paid.

 

[muhammednana10]

This was what I had. Very silly error it was meant to be 7:25 from dews to leeds. Instead got 7:45 from leeds to Dewsbury (Wrong way round of course as mentioned) It was also meant to he 16:45 from Leeds. I got 16:45 from Dewsbury (The return ticket was not used at all, brought new ticket). The whole journey was reversed, although paid for with no intention of dodging fare or getting some sort of cheaper ticket. The day before I got the same journey which was the correct way round and in fact I paid less that day (£4.80) as opposed to £5.20 on the date I got the PFN

 

[furlong]

This still doesn't all add up, I'm afraid.

Please try again to set it all out in sequence, filling in the gaps.

For example, you were charged the Penalty Fare applicable for travelling on a Northern train without a ticket but you imply you were on a TPE train (and the PF is a TPE PF). If so, you have a straightforward appeal that the PF wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations as it was £1 higher than it should have been.

The PF consists of 2 parts - a £50/£100 penalty plus the correct fare for the actual journey you were making. The TPE fare is £4.90. So the PF should have been £54.90. The puzzle though is how any Authorised Collector present on a TPE train could have got something so basic as that wrong. If this was indeed wrong, there needs to be an investigation to find out if other people have also been overcharged by the inspector concerned and are due refunds of the overcharged amount and the invalid penalty.

 

[muhammednana10]

I was on a TPE train 7:25 on the morning, from Dewsbury to leeds but my ticket said 7:45 from leeds to Dewsbury. However, on the way home the 16:45 train was a Nothern train and this was supposed to be from leeds to Dewsbury but I had brought Dewsbury to lesds. He said as I have a ticket that's only valid for specific journey he had to give me a PFN (Which I understand). However he said to appeal this as I was not trying to dodge fare or anything and was an honest mistake as he described it. The day before I had got my journey spot on and paid less money. This was 7:25 from Dewsbury to leeds (not 7:45 from leeds to Dewsbury) as I mistakenly got on the day I got PFN.

 

[signed]

What does the 725/745 has do with all that? You weren't caught on the 725/745, right?

The issue happen on the 1645?

 

[muhammednana10]

I was on a TPE train 7:25 on the morning, from Dewsbury to leeds but my ticket said 7:45 from leeds to Dewsbury. However, on the way home the 16:45 train was a Nothern train and this was supposed to be from leeds to Dewsbury but I had brought Dewsbury to lesds. He said as I have a ticket that's only valid for specific journey he had to give me a PFN (Which I understand). However he said to appeal this as I was not trying to dodge fare or anything and was an honest mistake as he described it. The day before I had got my journey spot on and paid less money. This was 7:25 from Dewsbury to leeds (not 7:45 from leeds to Dewsbury) as I mistakenly got on the day I got PFN.

31st July was the correct journey (Paid less). 1st August was mistakenly wrong, it was supposed to be Dewsbury to leeds. Paid more for this aswell

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

What does the 725/745 has do with all that? You weren't caught on the 725/745, right?

The issue happen on the 1645?

I was caught on the 7:25 train going to leeds unfortunately, when I went to show my ticket I had realised I had brought 7:45 from leeds to Dewsbury. I didn't use my return ticket on way home as I didn't want to get in more trouble if inspector was around, I had brought a new ticket, infact I finished work early so I had to buy a new ticket anyway as I took 16:15 train home and not the 16:45 I originally brought.

 

[island]

As furlong correctly states above, the Penalty Fare is invalid as the amount is £1 higher than it should be.

You should appeal on this basis and I would hope the appeal will be allowed.

 

[muhammednana10]

I have appealed it, but silly me put the incorrect date down in my statement! I put 24th July for some strange reason instead of 1st August. I feel like they will reject this

 

[BongoStar]

IIRC, each of the appeal is independent and you can have totally different reason in each of them. So the wrong date won't matter as much in the second appeal.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have appealed it, but silly me put the incorrect date down in my statement! I put 24th July for some strange reason instead of 1st August. I feel like they will reject this

Focus your second stage appeal on the advice here and post a draft up before submitting it so people can check it for you to avoid any errors and get most effective wording.

You’ll have to wait for 1st appeal to be responded to first I assume.

 

[muhammednana10]

I have just been successful on my appeal for a ticket I recieved unfairly by TPE. The appeal has been successful on the first attempt. I am unsure what happens next, they stated I only have to pay the ticket charge which was £4.90. I have already paid the £50 fine. Will they deduct the £4.90 from the £50 I'll get back? Or how do I pay for the ticket a different way. The case is showing as closed when attempting to pay on TPE website

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi.

Have you had any paperwork from them please? It would be helpful for the experts here to see it.