ASLEF - LNER drivers to strike every Sat & Sun for 3 months from 31 Aug - Now called off

[800001]

Indeed. And probably less now because of the large number of days affected, and because it's two days in a row.

And several of weekends is Carlisle diverts. So them weekends nothing will run north of Newcastle based on previous action.

 

[yorksrob]

This certainly also reinforces the decision to defer the Dec24 timetable enhancement that was clearly unachievable without worsening this situation further and probably now sees it kicked into the long grass for several years if ever.

Yes, no point if there aren't enough staff.

 

[paul1609]

The railway not being able to offer a good service is a management problem. Not an employee problem. Want enough staff to work trains without relying on overtime? Hire enough staff. That's how it works in every other industry seeing as you lot like harping on about how great other industries are...

Don't concern yourself about the formatting of my messages. It's the content which is important.

The reason that you cant compare the rail industry to other industries is that the other industries dont have a bottomless pit of government money to bale them out. LNER and the other railway companies would have either had to shrink their operations considerably or would have gone bust given their financial performance in the 4 years post pandemic.

 

[dk1]

Regarding a PR disaster, ASLEF could not care less about the public.

ASLEF exist to represent their members not the travelling public.

 

[yorksrob]

The reason that you cant compare the rail industry to other industries is that the other industries dont have a bottomless pit of government money to bale them out. LNER and the other railway companies would have either had to shrink their operations considerably or would have gone bust given their financial performance in the 4 years post pandemic.

The health and education "industries" do to an extent.

 

[bengley]

The reason that you cant compare the rail industry to other industries is that the other industries dont have a bottomless pit of government money to bale them out. LNER and the other railway companies would have either had to shrink their operations considerably or would have gone bust given their financial performance in the 4 years post pandemic.

Good job the railway operates for the benefit of the public which partially funds it then...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

ASLEF exist to represent their members not the travelling public.

Indeed but its also has a key role in working with management to deliver the train service and the fact relationships look to have clearly broken down in such a dramatic way in what is, or has been perhaps, the golden operator is a very serious matter. This should be exercising Louise Haigh but more importantly she should be questioning OLR and other DfT officials how this situation has been allowed to deteriorate to this.

 

[Class83]

ASLEF exist to represent their members not the travelling public.

But they're going to have to negotiate with Labour. Who felt they'd made a fair offer to end strikes. They're going to feel pretty burnt and less inclined to goodwill at the next negotiation.

 

[Spamcan81]

ASLEF exist to represent their members not the travelling public.

But if the travelling public desert the LNER in large numbers, ASLEF will likely have less members to represent. I’ve largely given up travelling on LNER and this action won’t persuade me to return.

 

[bengley]

But they're going to have to negotiate with Labour. Who felt they'd made a fair offer to end strikes. They're going to feel pretty burnt and less inclined to goodwill at the next negotiation.

No. It's a separate, long running dispute and an intelligent government will understand this.

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But if the travelling public desert the LNER in large numbers, ASLEF will likely have less members to represent. I’ve largely given up travelling on LNER and this action won’t persuade me to return.

You will return when you need to go out and it's the most convenient option in that situation!

 

[dk1]

But they're going to have to negotiate with Labour. Who felt they'd made a fair offer to end strikes. They're going to feel pretty burnt and less inclined to goodwill at the next negotiation.

But this is a totally different matter and totally avoidable in my opinion.

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Indeed but its also has a key role in working with management to deliver the train service and the fact relationships look to have clearly broken down in such a dramatic way in what is, or has been perhaps, the golden operator is a very serious matter. This should be exercising Louise Haigh but more importantly she should be questioning OLR and other DfT officials how this situation has been allowed to deteriorate to this.

I would be seriously concerned with senior management if I was her.

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But if the travelling public desert the LNER in large numbers, ASLEF will likely have less members to represent. I’ve largely given up travelling on LNER and this action won’t persuade me to return.

But that will never happen.

 

[Spamcan81]

No. It's a separate, long running dispute and an intelligent government will understand this.

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You will return when you need to go out and it's the most convenient option in that situation!

I have a nice car and am quite happy to drive. I prefer the train but not dependent on it.

 

[bengley]

I have a nice car and am quite happy to drive. I prefer the train but not dependent on it.

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I have a nice car and am quite happy to drive. I prefer the train but not dependent on it.

Do you ever use the train to visit places where you drink alcohol? That's inconvenient in the car. I prefer my car to the train too, but in some situations the train is far better.

 

[Purple Train]

Some people on this board have no idea how terribly, terribly badly this news is landing with people outside the rail industry...

And some of the justifications for the strike on here are, frankly, astonishing. "I won't drive the train and I don't want my (suitably qualified) boss to". Really?!!

And of course it's not management that suffers from the strike - just the travelling public

Indeed. Going out on a lengthy and disruptive strike, just after a (justifiable) nationwide strike has been resolved, for these reasons is, to put it diplomatically, a sure-fire way to evaporate the patience and goodwill of those whose patience and goodwill has already been severely tested.

Reputation-wise, it is not the reputation of the management that will suffer, nor that of the company. Train drivers have been denounced already by those outside the industry, and during the national strikes I have done my level best to argue their corner when I have been speaking to people who have been having a go at them. That the pay rise was justified. That the proposed modifications to working practices were unreasonable. That it was the then-government driving the lack of negotiations. Personally, this makes me feel that my support has been completely undermined. I know that's a gross overreaction - this is only one company, after all, and it's not as if I influence the public opinion of the rail unions beyond a few people I know - but I do feel that this is a gross overreaction by the union also. Isn't this the kind of local issue that action short of a strike is, to misuse the term, perfect for?

ASLEF need to be pragmatic here. This is not an issue that requires three months of weekend strikes - when leisure travel, much of which is catered for by LNER, is at its peak - and, as the quoted post says, it has gone down like a lead balloon with those whom the railway serves. I have seen, during disruption, the fantastic side of the industry shine through, working together to make the best of a bad situation, and making it. Two steps forward - and then, with every PR disaster like this, three steps back.

Obviously I am a layman, with no claim to anything but a basic understanding of the "inside" of the industry, as it were; if I have misunderstood any of the details in this case, please, please do correct me!

 

[Spamcan81]

But this is a totally different matter and totally avoidable in my opinion.

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I would be seriously concerned with senior management if I was her.

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But that will never happen.

The vast majority of passenger journeys in this country are not by train.

 

[greyman42]

ASLEF exist to represent their members not the travelling public.

I was referring to the post about it being a PR disaster.

 

[Spamcan81]

Do you ever use the train to visit places where you drink alcohol? That's inconvenient in the car. I prefer my car to the train too, but in some situations the train is far better.

Yes but if I have to drive I can happily go without. Just as I am not dependent on the train, I am not dependent on alcohol.

 

[357]

Refusal to use electronic means such as iPads to receive communications such as late notices or TSLs

I've been in many drivers cabs of LNER services and all drivers were using an iPad

Staff members claiming an entitlement to restart the duration of a break if a manager speaks to the staff member during the break, even as little as saying hello

This does not happen. However, a "compromised break" does - this is when the driver interrupts their break to do something like move a train - many drivers don't bother to make a fuss, however others who have then had an incident found themselves blamed as they hadn't had their break.

Claiming of "walking time" of 10-15 minutes for distances that can be covered in less than two

Walking times are not claimed but diagrammed. They are set out by management - an example to suit your post would be Fenchurch Street where the messroom was next to the gateline but we got 10 minutes walking time. The reason for this was that the old messroom was much further away and the management were too busy to notice and update the walking times.

Strict demarcation of locations where work will be carried out where there is no rationale or benefit to the business

I can't think of what you mean here apart from many TOCs have an agreement that shifts must start and finish in the same location? I'm sure you wouldn't like being left at the other end of the line to travel back to London and get your car in your own time, because it is a "benefit to the business".

Demanding money for use of scanning equipment to read e-tickets

This was related to making up for the comission guards used to get for selling tickets and is only in place at a couple of tocs.

Refusing to use videoconferencing technology such as Zoom for meetings

Again, in my experience the only issue has been a few older folks asking to be talked through the software, and management interpreting that as a refusal. Zoom has been common at every TOC I have worked at since 2020 and hasn't been the source of any problems.

Refusing rest day working and then objecting to other competent employees working those rest days

I've posted earlier in this thread about how management playing trains has directly impacted me and could have stopped me progressing my career. I've said that I prefer management to be competent drivers, and most companies ensure this. You're mixing up not wanting them to be competent with not wanting them spending their entire time driving trains.

Claiming of paid time off every six months to check that the staff member's health hasn't been adversely impacted by the microwave in the break room

You're going to have to give more context here because now I have absolutely no idea what you're on about, and I really don't know if you're serious or not.

 

[yorkie]

Some interesting quotes.

There's evidently some genuine grievances but the "scabbing" comment (especially if they're not in ASLEF!) and attacking what I presume are fully competent driver managers and their salaries does nobody any favours and looks petty.

Indeed; the people behind such comments are cowardly old blokes whose attitudes belong in a distant era that all decent people have moved on from.

 

[dk1]

I was referring to the post about it being a PR disaster.

I’m not sure PR is something that will influence a decision on something like this. If the union feels it’s wrong then it needs addressing regardless of timing.

 

[Topological]

Yes but if I have to drive I can happily go without. Just as I am not dependent on the train, I am not dependent on alcohol.

As would an increasing number of people, the drinking market is a shrinking one for the railways too.

It is a bit sad if the reason the railway feels it is indispensable is that people would otherwise drink and drive.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Indeed. Going out on a lengthy and disruptive strike, just after a (justifiable) nationwide strike has been resolved, for these reasons is, to put it diplomatically, a sure-fire way to evaporate the patience and goodwill of those whose patience and goodwill has already been severely tested.

Reputation-wise, it is not the reputation of the management that will suffer, nor that of the company. Train drivers have been denounced already by those outside the industry, and during the national strikes I have done my level best to argue their corner when I have been speaking to people who have been having a go at them. That the pay rise was justified. That the proposed modifications to working practices were unreasonable. That it was the then-government driving the lack of negotiations. Personally, this makes me feel that my support has been completely undermined. I know that's a gross overreaction - this is only one company, after all, and it's not as if I influence the public opinion of the rail unions beyond a few people I know - but I do feel that this is a gross overreaction by the union also. Isn't this the kind of local issue that action short of a strike is, to misuse the term, perfect for?

ASLEF need to be pragmatic here. This is not an issue that requires three months of weekend strikes - when leisure travel, much of which is catered for by LNER, is at its peak - and, as the quoted post says, it has gone down like a lead balloon with those whom the railway serves. I have seen, during disruption, the fantastic side of the industry shine through, working together to make the best of a bad situation, and making it. Two steps forward - and then, with every PR disaster like this, three steps back.

Obviously I am a layman, with no claim to anything but a basic understanding of the "inside" of the industry, as it were; if I have misunderstood any of the details in this case, please, please do correct me!

ASLEF have very harmonious relationships with many operators so whilst perhaps a notice of intent to take significant strike action if grievances weren't adequately addressed would have been a better opening gambit the fact they've gone to defcon3 straight away is an indication that behind teh scences things have deteriorated very significantly. I also very much doubt Haigh would have gone so public over resolving the national pay dispute if she knew this was just waiting in the wings. This is a considerable failure of OLR which is no better than a private operator if not worse as it costs a small fortune to run through all its consultants.

 

[MikeWM]

Given that the pay issue seems to have been sorted, a period of stability and growth would be useful.

Yes, especially given that the last 4.5 years have been an almost continual period of disruption of one sort or another. As a passenger, I was looking forward to being able to plan things in advance again. At some point things need to stabilise and it is really rather depressing if we haven't got there yet. People's habits will change if disruption goes on for too long - mine certainly have, I spend a lot less on the railways than I did 5 years ago, that change may or may not be permanent but at some point it is likely to get firmly 'locked in' if it hasn't already.

But then as a passenger, I don't trust LNER management at the moment.

Nor I. They've been the most passenger-unfriendly TOC for years now, first with their covid measures (including the 'compulsory reservations' nonsense) and more recently with their highly unwelcome ticketing 'reforms'. As someone who has previously been very much in favour of re-nationalisation, I'm now deeply concerned at what will happen if the entire railway follows the model of LNER as the TOCs are progressively nationalised.

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Regarding a PR disaster, ASLEF could not care less about the public.

And on one level they shouldn't, their job is to look after their members. But it does often feel that they forget that there is a balance to be made with the fact that the only reason they exist in the first place is because the public are willing to pay to use the services they provide.

But even excluding the public as a whole, the fact is that this looks like putting two fingers up to the government immediately after the pay deal earlier in the week, as it is certainly giving the Tories, the media, and people on social media, a big stick to attack the government with. Whatever the merits or specifics, that doesn't feel like a good strategy from ASLEF for future relations with this government.

 

[dk1]

Nor I. They've been the most passenger-unfriendly TOC for years now, first with their covid measures (including the 'compulsory reservations' nonsense) and more recently with their highly unwelcome ticketing 'reforms'. As someone who has previously been very much in favour of re-nationalisation, I'm now deeply concerned at what will happen if the entire railway follows the model of LNER as the TOCs are progressively nationalised.

Yes what a load of squit that was. I travelled throughout their unnecessary demands of compulsory reservations and never reserved a seat once. Never have and never will.

Don’t worry, it’ll never get brought in nationally thank goodness.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Nor I. They've been the most passenger-unfriendly TOC for years now, first with their covid measures (including the 'compulsory reservations' nonsense) and more recently with their highly unwelcome ticketing 'reforms'. As someone who has previously been very much in favour of re-nationalisation, I'm now deeply concerned at what will happen if the entire railway follows the model of LNER as the TOCs are progressively nationalised.

AWC trains are better staff more welcoming and service reliability a whole lot better than it was. Im pretty sure some of that is an outcome from pressure that can be exerted on a private operator still.

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And on one level they shouldn't, their job is to look after their members. But it does often feel that they forget that there is a balance to be made with the fact that the only reason they exist in the first place is because the public are willing to pay to use the services they provide.

But even excluding the public as a whole, the fact is that this looks like putting two fingers up to the government immediately after the pay deal earlier in the week, as it is certainly giving the Tories, the media, and people on social media, a big stick to attack the government with. Whatever the merits or specifics, that doesn't feel like a good strategy from ASLEF for future relations with this government.

The fact they've gone straight to defcon3 has to be a reflection of how far things have deteriorated at LNER. Mind you given accolades Whelan heaped on Labour yesterday over sorting the deal one would have hoped he would have bent Haighs ear about the state of relations at LNER and giver her a chance to intervene.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

ASLEF exist to represent their members not the travelling public.

If the traveling public don’t travel, ASLEF will cease to exist. Circular.

 

[66701GBRF]

If the traveling public don’t travel, ASLEF will cease to exist. Circular.

You are never going to get to a point where absolutely no one will travel. ASLEF also represent traincrew on freight.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

You are never going to get to a point where absolutely no one will travel. ASLEF also represent traincrew on freight.

True

 

[Topological]

You are never going to get to a point where absolutely no one will travel. ASLEF also represent traincrew on freight.

So ASLEF exist, but many of the members do not*

* Meaning that there do not need to be as many drivers and hence driver numbers reduce.

 

[Starmill]

You will return when you need to go out and it's the most convenient option in that situation!

Do you not think there's a hubris here? Clearly your view is commonplace among many staff from the bottom to the top of the hierarchy. Is there not a large danger of taking the consumer for granted by adopting this thinking, and encouraging it in others?

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But they're going to have to negotiate with Labour. Who felt they'd made a fair offer to end strikes. They're going to feel pretty burnt and less inclined to goodwill at the next negotiation.

I don't think there's any real risk of that. Unless you're saying they're planning to disaffiliate from Labour - which is obviously possible but would be a very surprising move?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Aug 2024 ==

Reputation-wise, it is not the reputation of the management that will suffer, nor that of the company. Train drivers have been denounced already by those outside the industry, and during the national strikes I have done my level best to argue their corner when I have been speaking to people who have been having a go at them.

I don't know. The industry in general, the brand, the senior management and indeed the two Ministers are likely to take a big hit if all 22 strike days go ahead.