First West Yorkshire & York discussion

[dodecahedron67]

The final stage of the Uni of York network re-vamp will come into effect from September 13. Attached is the new UoY network map including all the renumberings

 

[Deerfold]

Upcoming service changes at First West Yorkshire from 1 September:

Service changes from 1st September

From Sunday 1st September, we're making changes to improve the reliability of our services across West Yorkshire to help you get to where you need to be. Below is a summary of the changes for each area. Leeds: Services: Change: 16

www.firstbus.co.uk

Leeds:

Bradford:

Halifax & Huddersfield:


Fantastic news regarding the 72 in Bradford!

Except that their AI timetabling means no-one will be able to remember the times of the roughly quarter hourly service where gaps vary between 12 and 18 minutes and vary hour to hour.

 

[Seehof]

Do First York need any additional vehicles to operate the new Uni network? If so what and where from?

 

[dodecahedron67]

Do First York need any additional vehicles to operate the new Uni network? If so what and where from?

12 PVR I believe. C1/C2 don’t run anymore and timings are re-done.
U3 essentially takes the 3 PVR from C1/C2

U4 runs SSuO when the U1/2/3 will be at lower PVR anyway

 

[158756]

Meanwhile the cross-boundary links to/from Rochdale are further eroded.

Down to an hourly service between Rochdale and Todmorden only. At this point is there any point in First keeping it? It'd make more sense as a Bee Network route. Which may well be part of the problem - is it viable to run a commercial service mostly within Greater Manchester (in terms of population) on roads well served by the yellow buses?

The rest of the changes to the 590s are a very mixed bag. Back up to every 15 minutes between Halifax and Hebden Bridge, but then only every 30 minutes to Todmorden. Back to every 30 minutes to Burnley but with half the services now cutting out all the stops on the way into Burnley.

Despite the shorter route into Burnley buses journey times still get longer. One bus in the afternoon will somehow take 49 minutes from Todmorden to Burnley, where the closest equivalents in the current timetable are timed at 35 minutes. I do wonder if the AI is timing to allow for the roadworks that have been affecting access to the bus station in Burnley for the last six months, but they've just finished.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Down to an hourly service between Rochdale and Todmorden only. At this point is there any point in First keeping it? It'd make more sense as a Bee Network route. Which may well be part of the problem - is it viable to run a commercial service mostly within Greater Manchester (in terms of population) on roads well served by the yellow buses?

The rest of the changes to the 590s are a very mixed bag. Back up to every 15 minutes between Halifax and Hebden Bridge, but then only every 30 minutes to Todmorden. Back to every 30 minutes to Burnley but with half the services now cutting out all the stops on the way into Burnley.

Despite the shorter route into Burnley buses journey times still get longer. One bus in the afternoon will somehow take 49 minutes from Todmorden to Burnley, where the closest equivalents in the current timetable are timed at 35 minutes. I do wonder if the AI is timing to allow for the roadworks that have been affecting access to the bus station in Burnley for the last six months, but they've just finished.

Just had a quick look through the various 590-3 timetables - wow!

Well, that looks like the end of me using the bus on an occasional evening from Todmorden to the Fox & Goose on the west side of Hebden Bridge, now it is down to an hourly service. Granted, Hebden Bridge to Halifax was perhaps more deserving of a half-hourly evening service than Todmorden, which this restores (except Sundays) but this is now the worst service level in the forty years I've lived here. I'm just fortunate the trains go to most other places I want to go!

Regarding the diversion of the 592 via Todmorden Road into Burnley, I can only assume it is to avoid using Mount Lane between Walk Mill and Mereclough, which was always a tricky bit of road and no doubt hasn't got any better in the last twenty years. It does leave the substantial amount of housing on the existing route into Burnley with a two-hourly evening and Sunday service though; I can't help thinking it would have been better overall to have run every bus at those times as 591 route via Mereclough and ditch the few potential passengers from Walk Mill.

 

[RELL6L]

Regarding the changes to routes west of Halifax:

The 590-593 are just a continued decline. So we will now revert to 4bph between Hebden Bridge and Halifax which is good, but the reduction to 2bph between Hebden Bridge and Todmorden seems a retrograde step. The change of some of the journeys into Burnley to the 592 route seems to be a device to speed these up so that the through service twice an hour Burnley to Halifax can work with 7 buses.
The 593 is interesting and I wonder if this is to be worked by Todmorden outstation or from Halifax. The three vehicles start at Halifax at 06.58 and 07.28 and at Hebden Bridge at 07.42. All three vehicles sort of appear to finish at Hebden Bridge but during the evening there must be some interworking at Halifax as buses arrive at 20.05, 21.15 and 22.17 and leave at 20.06, 21.08 and 22.08. That would suggest they (or at least two) are actually Halifax run with out of service journeys back from Hebden Bridge. If they are worked from Todmorden then there will have to be some means of driver swaps to Hebden Bridge.
The 590 to Rochdale is now very sad, using two buses very inefficiently to provide an hourly service. What a come-down and would not appear, from my recent trip, to be justified by demand. Perhaps, as suggested above, TfGM should take it over and run 2bph from Littleborough to Todmorden by extension of existing routes. For two buses I am sure half hourly journeys to Todmorden would work. So who operates these routes - oh - its First Bus!
The impact of these changes overall - nothing. Still 12 buses, as at present, although possibly not all from Todmorden. Worse service to Rochdale, worse between Hebden Bridge and Todmorden. Better east of Hebden Bridge.

The 579 simply makes my blood boil! Not long ago this was a decent service every 15 minutes clockface. Going forward it will be roughly every 22-23 minutes but with some other intervals. But worst, on Monday to Friday there is a gap of over an hour between Halifax departures at 13.40 then 14.49. This doesn't occur on Saturdays, when the frequency is again about every 22 minutes but the times completely different. There is also no arrival in Halifax between 08.21 and 09.13, prime morning peak - nor a 586. How to drive people away!

The sooner West Yorkshire step in and stop this nonsense on their patch the better.

Rant over!

 

[Whisky Papa]

Regarding the changes to routes west of Halifax:

The 590-593 are just a continued decline. So we will now revert to 4bph between Hebden Bridge and Halifax which is good, but the reduction to 2bph between Hebden Bridge and Todmorden seems a retrograde step. The change of some of the journeys into Burnley to the 592 route seems to be a device to speed these up so that the through service twice an hour Burnley to Halifax can work with 7 buses.
The 593 is interesting and I wonder if this is to be worked by Todmorden outstation or from Halifax. The three vehicles start at Halifax at 06.58 and 07.28 and at Hebden Bridge at 07.42. All three vehicles sort of appear to finish at Hebden Bridge but during the evening there must be some interworking at Halifax as buses arrive at 20.05, 21.15 and 22.17 and leave at 20.06, 21.08 and 22.08. That would suggest they (or at least two) are actually Halifax run with out of service journeys back from Hebden Bridge. If they are worked from Todmorden then there will have to be some means of driver swaps to Hebden Bridge.
The 590 to Rochdale is now very sad, using two buses very inefficiently to provide an hourly service. What a come-down and would not appear, from my recent trip, to be justified by demand. Perhaps, as suggested above, TfGM should take it over and run 2bph from Littleborough to Todmorden by extension of existing routes. For two buses I am sure half hourly journeys to Todmorden would work. So who operates these routes - oh - its First Bus!
The impact of these changes overall - nothing. Still 12 buses, as at present, although possibly not all from Todmorden. Worse service to Rochdale, worse between Hebden Bridge and Todmorden. Better east of Hebden Bridge.

The 579 simply makes my blood boil! Not long ago this was a decent service every 15 minutes clockface. Going forward it will be roughly every 22-23 minutes but with some other intervals. But worst, on Monday to Friday there is a gap of over an hour between Halifax departures at 13.40 then 14.49. This doesn't occur on Saturdays, when the frequency is again about every 22 minutes but the times completely different. There is also no arrival in Halifax between 08.21 and 09.13, prime morning peak - nor a 586. How to drive people away!

The sooner West Yorkshire step in and stop this nonsense on their patch the better.

Rant over!

Rant well justified!

Personally, I could just about live with two buses per hour from Todmorden through to Halifax during the day, assuming of course they were reliable - this was the case for many years after all, but I really don't like dropping down to an hourly evening service.

What is telling is that the 'classic' service pattern I used to drive required only 13 buses to give 2 bph from Todmorden to both Rochdale and Burnley, the same 4 bph between Hebden and Halifax as these changes provide and hourly services up to both Heptonstall and Old Town. Apart from during roadworks or the various incidents that can occur on the roads, buses generally ran to time, even at peak times - granted, some off-peak journeys did have excessive waiting time. I'm sure most locals would happily see this pattern reinstated, albeit with the former Heptonstall and Old Town journeys from Halifax turning short at Hebden Bridge and thus using the same 12 buses as the new timetable.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Rant well justified!

Personally, I could just about live with two buses per hour from Todmorden through to Halifax during the day, assuming of course they were reliable - this was the case for many years after all, but I really don't like dropping down to an hourly evening service.

What is telling is that the 'classic' service pattern I used to drive required only 13 buses to give 2 bph from Todmorden to both Rochdale and Burnley, the same 4 bph between Hebden and Halifax as these changes provide and hourly services up to both Heptonstall and Old Town. Apart from during roadworks or the various incidents that can occur on the roads, buses generally ran to time, even at peak times - granted, some off-peak journeys did have excessive waiting time. I'm sure most locals would happily see this pattern reinstated, albeit with the former Heptonstall and Old Town journeys from Halifax turning short at Hebden Bridge and thus using the same 12 buses as the new timetable.

Would that timetable still work 13 years later?

 

[Whisky Papa]

Would that timetable still work 13 years later?

I honestly don't know the answer to that - I'm no longer familiar with the degree of congestion that occurs in the peaks currently, particularly the morning peak (the joys of retirement!). Off-peak, there was certainly some slack in the timetable, even if it wasn't always where you needed it. Whether this would be enough to accommodate the slower rate of progress that has become the norm is debatable, but I think it would be possible.

The day the old pattern came unstuck was on Sundays and Bank Holidays in the warmer months, when traffic congestion approaching the tourist hot-spot of Hebden Bridge could cause delays that rendered the three hour round trip from Halifax to either Burnley or Rochdale difficult to achieve. Extra buses did run between Halifax and Hebden Bridge at times which took some of the load at least, but didn't get you back on time!

 

[Leedsbusman]

I honestly don't know the answer to that - I'm no longer familiar with the degree of congestion that occurs in the peaks currently, particularly the morning peak (the joys of retirement!). Off-peak, there was certainly some slack in the timetable, even if it wasn't always where you needed it. Whether this would be enough to accommodate the slower rate of progress that has become the norm is debatable, but I think it would be possible.

The day the old pattern came unstuck was on Sundays and Bank Holidays in the warmer months, when traffic congestion approaching the tourist hot-spot of Hebden Bridge could cause delays that rendered the three hour round trip from Halifax to either Burnley or Rochdale difficult to achieve. Extra buses did run between Halifax and Hebden Bridge at times which took some of the load at least, but didn't get you back on time!

A bit of googling suggests a ten minute extension in running times Todmorden to Halifax over the last 15yrs. So in reality that makes a 15 PVR operation in place of the old 13 bus one.

 

[Whisky Papa]

A bit of googling suggests a ten minute extension in running times Todmorden to Halifax over the last 15yrs. So in reality that makes a 15 PVR operation in place of the old 13 bus one.

Yes, there is definitely some increase in the morning peak towards Halifax, just looking at the new timetables - we got 45 minutes! Outward evening peak journeys seem to be pretty much the same as we used to do, which was xx15 and xx45 from Halifax for an xx10 and xx40 onward departure from Todmorden to Burnley and Rochdale respectively. I notice there is to be extra time allowed for journeys earlier in the afternoon though. On the other hand, some outward off-peak journeys will be faster from Halifax to Hebden Bridge than the 35 minutes we were given - definitely one of the slack points in the old timetable.

I've only just twigged they will be using Halifax bus station from this change, which is at least one very minor consolation.

 

[RELL6L]

Yes, there is definitely some increase in the morning peak towards Halifax, just looking at the new timetables - we got 45 minutes! Outward evening peak journeys seem to be pretty much the same as we used to do, which was xx15 and xx45 from Halifax for an xx10 and xx40 onward departure from Todmorden to Burnley and Rochdale respectively. I notice there is to be extra time allowed for journeys earlier in the afternoon though. On the other hand, some outward off-peak journeys will be faster from Halifax to Hebden Bridge than the 35 minutes we were given - definitely one of the slack points in the old timetable.

I've only just twigged they will be using Halifax bus station from this change, which is at least one very minor consolation.

Halifax bus station is already being used, I went on a 590 into Halifax a couple of weeks ago. It’s not much of a consolation though, it runs nonstop from miles away, missing out the entire town centre and shopping areas, then spending ages at badly phased traffic lights before finally arriving at the bus station. Mentioned in my recent trip report.

 

[BradK2017]

Halifax bus station is already being used, I went on a 590 into Halifax a couple of weeks ago. It’s not much of a consolation though, it runs nonstop from miles away, missing out the entire town centre and shopping areas, then spending ages at badly phased traffic lights before finally arriving at the bus station. Mentioned in my recent trip report.

Isn't that due to the ongoing roadworks around Bull Green/George St. including removing the roundabout, with the plan to have them return to the previous route once the area revamp is completed?

 

[Whisky Papa]

Halifax bus station is already being used, I went on a 590 into Halifax a couple of weeks ago. It’s not much of a consolation though, it runs nonstop from miles away, missing out the entire town centre and shopping areas, then spending ages at badly phased traffic lights before finally arriving at the bus station. Mentioned in my recent trip report.

Apologies, just noticed that fact on the current timetable starting from late July. I've not been into central Halifax on the bus for a good while, I'm afraid.

 

[TUC]

Halifax bus station is already being used, I went on a 590 into Halifax a couple of weeks ago. It’s not much of a consolation though, it runs nonstop from miles away, missing out the entire town centre and shopping areas, then spending ages at badly phased traffic lights before finally arriving at the bus station. Mentioned in my recent trip report.

Metro seems to be determined to push use of the bus station at all costs, regardless of its inconvenient location for most people who want to use the town centre. The Bull Green works haven't helped that, but there is a deeper underlying problem.

 

[Andyh82]

Metro seems to be determined to push use of the bus station at all costs, regardless of its inconvenient location for most people who want to use the town centre. The Bull Green works haven't helped that, but there is a deeper underlying problem.

590/592 Buses will return to their old route when the works are finished

The works will actually be better for buses as Pellon Lane services will be able to turn right out of the top of George Street, rather than turning left, and going all the way round the roundabout to go right

Market Street is being pedestrianised by Calderdale Council

It does show that people are never happy. Some services like those to Mixenden and Illingworth never went from the bus station, passengers had to wait on the street in all weathers. Now they are complaining that the new bus station isn’t handy enough and they want to wait on a street in all weathers.

 

[TUC]

They just want to bec590/592 Buses will return to their old route when the works are finished

The works will actually be better for buses as Pellon Lane services will be able to turn right out of the top of George Street, rather than turning left, and going all the way round the roundabout to go right

Market Street is being pedestrianised by Calderdale Council

It does show that people are never happy. Some services like those to Mixenden and Illingworth never went from the bus station, passengers had to wait on the street in all weathers. Now they are complaining that the new bus station isn’t handy enough and they want to wait on a street in all weathers.

They just want to be able to catch a bus near to where they have been shopping rather than walk with heavy shopping bags. That's a perfectly normal customer- focused expectation.

 

[Whisky Papa]

590/592 Buses will return to their old route when the works are finished

Apologies for the pedantry, but it will be 591 and 592 only from Halifax once the September changes are implemented, the 590 will be truncated at Todmorden.

Incidentally, I assume no thought was given to running to Walsden and back in the (approximate) half-hour the 590s will lay over at Todmorden each hour, giving at least the local passengers 2 bph. I suppose the TLC T6/8 minibus routes might be an option for some of those passengers, at least the hours it operates directly via Walsden.

 

[317 forever]

The Bee Network thread mentions about First Leeds receiving Electroliners with guide wheels, presumably for the Scott Hall Road services.

If they are in service in time for my visit 2 weeks from now this will be my priority route to sample them.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

The Bee Network thread mentions about First Leeds receiving Electroliners with guide wheels, presumably for the Scott Hall Road services.

If they are in service in time for my visit 2 weeks from now this will be my priority route to sample them.

They appear to be for the 56 in the main - although they appearing on other routes too at the moment.

 

[Deerfold]

Metro seems to be determined to push use of the bus station at all costs, regardless of its inconvenient location for most people who want to use the town centre. The Bull Green works haven't helped that, but there is a deeper underlying problem.

It seems to take an enormous walk even to get to Sainsbury's now which used to be an easy pop out of the bus station.

 

[158756]

Apologies for the pedantry, but it will be 591 and 592 only from Halifax once the September changes are implemented, the 590 will be truncated at Todmorden.

Incidentally, I assume no thought was given to running to Walsden and back in the (approximate) half-hour the 590s will lay over at Todmorden each hour, giving at least the local passengers 2 bph. I suppose the TLC T6/8 minibus routes might be an option for some of those passengers, at least the hours it operates directly via Walsden.

There's not enough time to run to Walsden and back without impacting reliability. The five minutes most buses get at Rochdale is already going to cause problems. And at peak times the long layover doesn't exist anyway.

The lack of time there is just a symptom of the wider problem of increasing running times. The longest peak journey between Todmorden and Rochdale in the current timetable takes 40 minutes. In the new timetable many off peak journeys will take longer than that, and the longest journey is now 53 minutes. That's over a 30% increase in peak running times in one timetable change. That's not sustainable. It's a similar story on the Burnley routes, though I suspect at least some of the extra time is spurious in that case.

Regarding the diversion of the 592 via Todmorden Road into Burnley, I can only assume it is to avoid using Mount Lane between Walk Mill and Mereclough, which was always a tricky bit of road and no doubt hasn't got any better in the last twenty years. It does leave the substantial amount of housing on the existing route into Burnley with a two-hourly evening and Sunday service though; I can't help thinking it would have been better overall to have run every bus at those times as 591 route via Mereclough and ditch the few potential passengers from Walk Mill.

I definitely think it's to save time. Mereclough to Burnley was timed for 12 minutes at the start of the year. It's now up to 21 minutes on some journeys. A lot of the layovers are very tight, so the timetable wouldn't work if they hadn't changed the route of the 592.

But while 21 minutes might have been what it actually took with the roadworks, they've finished. I really think this is a total lack of local knowledge at First HQ or wherever the scheduling is done. If I were a passenger on that route I'd be seriously cheesed off if the service is being cut to account for roadworks that aren't there any more.

 

[Andyh82]

It seems to take an enormous walk even to get to Sainsbury's now which used to be an easy pop out of the bus station.

That sounds like a pretty weak complaint I have to say

 

[Whisky Papa]

I definitely think it's to save time. Mereclough to Burnley was timed for 12 minutes at the start of the year. It's now up to 21 minutes on some journeys. A lot of the layovers are very tight, so the timetable wouldn't work if they hadn't changed the route of the 592.

But while 21 minutes might have been what it actually took with the roadworks, they've finished. I really think this is a total lack of local knowledge at First HQ or wherever the scheduling is done. If I were a passenger on that route I'd be seriously cheesed off if the service is being cut to account for roadworks that aren't there any more.

I'm not aware of where the schedules are compiled nowadays, certainly they used to be done at Halifax (or sometimes in my spare bedroom in the couple of years I was a Shop Steward). As you say, some of these extended running times are hard to comprehend. I know there was a period pre-Covid when the flood prevention works on the A646 at Mytholmroyd resulted in a timetable with greatly increased journey times that hung on for a while after the works had been completed.

Mereclough was always an odd timing point - we got 12 minutes into Burnley but outbound we only got 8, and probably passed it a couple of minutes late at busy times. Overall, Portsmouth to Burnley was always 20 minutes, whether via Mount Lane or Red Lees Road, with a 10 minute layover at Burnley (5 evenings and Sundays).

 

[Deerfold]

That sounds like a pretty weak complaint I have to say

I'm sorry for being disappointed that what used to be a quick nip is now a fairly major walk, having to exit on the opposite side of the bus station.

If they're going to make things harder I'd expect the bus station to work well, but it doesn't seem to with buses in similar directions using stands at opposite ends of the bus station.

If you're going to be so dismissive, feel free to ecplain why.

 

[Andyh82]

It seems to be north/west Halifax services such as your Mixenden, Illingworth, Pellon etc using the lower part

And your east/south/south west such as Brighouse, Bradford, Huddersfield, Sowerby Bridge using the upper part

I’m don’t deny that you’ve probably found a very specific destination that doesn’t follow this pattern?

 

[Deerfold]

It seems to be north/west Halifax services such as your Mixenden, Illingworth, Pellon etc using the lower part

And your east/south/south west such as Brighouse, Bradford, Huddersfield, Sowerby Bridge using the upper part

I’m don’t deny that you’ve probably found a very specific destination that doesn’t follow this pattern?

I'm not finding difficulties for the hell of it, I'd love it to be easy to use. If heading to King Cross, roughly half the buses go from T and U, and half from D.

I hear from regular uses that buses are still regularly leaving from the wrong stands.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Regarding the 591/592, I assume double deckers can fit through!

Picture shows the rail overbridge on Burnley Road near Walk Mill, height 14' 6"

 

[Leedsbusman]

Regarding the 591/592, I assume double deckers can fit through!

Picture shows the rail overbridge on Burnley Road near Walk Mill, height 14' 6"

14’6in buses can fit under 14’6 in bridges as a rule.