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WCML passenger timetable (Euston - Nuneaton/Coventry) 1980s v now

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MarkWi72

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Has anyone got any information on this. Post 2000s Modernisation, I know Virgin tripled the numbers of commuters in 2008 with VHF timetables. But how has it developed through BR days from 1980s to the present day? 80s/90s/00S / Post VHF?

I was watching Green signals video (
) which talks about pre and post VHF and the need for extra capacity via HS2 (esp. phase 2A)

How do we compare now? Much busier, I suspect. Even with Avanti/West Midlands.
 
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Bald Rick

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Euston - Coventry was essentially half hourly from the 80s through to 2008, with the odd extra in the peaks.

This excludes the Euston - New St via Northampton service, which nobody really used for London - Coventry services
 

ChiefPlanner

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Put it this way - getting the 2004 WCML timetable from the ashes of previous aspirations took a huge amount of serious hard work , liasion and tough meetings - (but it worked well) and the development of the VHF 2008 built on this. Compromise was not a dirty word.

Freight was also looked after - after very much angst - provision was made for 2x75 mph and 1x60 mph paths Willesden to Northampton on the slow lines , off peak - plus "the best possible" timings for fast Northampton to nail that down.

From such acorns - oak trees flourished (at 125 MPH ! :D )
 

MarkWi72

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I know the planning and pathing of the WCML to Rugby is a thing of art and mathematics.
 

ac6000cw

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Euston - Coventry was essentially half hourly from the 80s through to 2008, with the odd extra in the peaks.

This excludes the Euston - New St via Northampton service, which nobody really used for London - Coventry services
The Euston - Birmingham IC service was already half-hourly in 1972 when my interest in railways started - I spent many hours at New Street back then. Half of the services continued to Wolverhampton, with the Birmingham terminators also handling heavy Royal Mail traffic (the turnaround time was well used for manual mailbag transfer to/from an armada of blue BRUTE trolleys...).
 

nw1

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Timetable World includes a full BR timetable for 1982. It also has the ABC Rail Guide for 1981, from which you can figure out the pattern.
I also have some marshalling books downloaded from the BR Coaching Stock group on groups.io, from which you can gain a lot of info - all loco-hauled services are shown and in the 80s obviously everything was loco-hauled.

Key: EBW = Euston/Birmingham/Wolverhampton

In summary:

The 1981 timetable was the simplest, most regular clockface of the 80s timetables with this pattern:

xx45 Glasgow (two-hourly, even hours)
xx50 Liverpool (hourly)
xx55 Manchester (hourly)
xx00 Holyhead, Blackpool or Carlisle (varied). Made more stops.
xx10 Birmingham
xx40 Wolverhampton, occasionally Shrewsbury

In 1982 the Liverpool was reduced to 90-minutely (xx50 or xx20 depending on the hour) and the others stayed more or less the same (the odd gap on the xx00)

In 1983 there were more significant changes. The Manchester became xx50 (not xx55) and the xx40 Wolverhampton extended to either Blackpool or Holyhead every two hours. There were also limited extensions to Shrewsbury still.
Liverpools moved to xx00 or xx30 still on a 90-minute pattern in the middle part of the day, but there was more variation towards the peak (e.g. 1030, 1200 and 1330 and 1500 was then followed by the 1600). The Glasgow xx45s moved from the even hours to the odd hours.
There were still a few direct (Trent Valley) Carlisles, Holyheads and Blackpools but no longer in a regular hourly slot.

1984 was largely unchanged from 1983, despite big changes to XC services on the London Midland region (Birmingham - Manchester/Liverpool) that year.

1985 appeared to show further changes, perhaps driven partly by the Glasgows (still odd-hours xx45) becoming 110mph. However, it wasn't just retimings, it was deregularisation of timings and cuts so I suspect other factors were at play too.
Firstly there was the loss of the hourly Manchester service with it moving to a more irregular and less-consistent pattern.
For example, between 1000 and 1600 there were Manchesters at 1115, 1230, 1355 and 1505. I wonder why Manchester lost its clockface service?
Liverpools were still mostly 90-minutely but the timings changed, e.g. departures at 1020, 1130, 1300, 1430 and 1600.

Even EBWs lost pure clockface timings this year. The Holyhead / Blackpool extensions were withdrawn though Shrewsbury gained a two-hourly service at xx40 odd hours, with xx40s to Wolverhampton in other hours. The Birmingham terminators however varied between xx05 and xx10.

In all, a strange timetable witjh more irregular timings which was also mirrored on HSTs out of Paddington with Bristol losing a consistently-timed service in a similar manner to Manchester.

1987 saw a return of xx10/xx40 clockface to the EBWs, though the Shrewsbury extensions became more irregular again. Liverpools and Manchesters regularised to xx20 or xx50 slots, though neither were hourly.
e.g 1020 Liverpool; 1120 Liverpool; 1150 Manchester; 1220 Liverpool; 1250 Manchester; 1350 Liverpool; 1420 Manchester; 1520 Manchester; 1550 Liverpool (with variations on Fridays and Saturdays).

Glasgows operated in a similar mode to Manchester/Liverpools, using the xx00/xx30 slots but not every hour (e.g. 1030, 1300, 1400, 1530) rather than the former regular two-hourly service. Presumably the aim was to meet demand at busy times of day (hence more afternoon departures but a long late-morning gap).

1987 is the last marshalling book for the 80s. From around 1989 to 1993 I used the WCML from Euston as a passenger more regularly and I do remember towards the end of this period Manchester had reverted to a clockface hourly service, now on the hour. This may have been introduced as early as 1989 but without the timetables I cannot be sure. In March 1989 I travelled from Euston to Piccadilly for the first time and that was an on-the-hour service (0800 or 0900, I think) though not sure if the hourly service kept up throughout the day.

From the 1997 WTTs on Network Rail (CC and CE) the pattern in the early Virgin days was still xx00 on the hour (which is what I seem to remember) and hourly to Manchester. Liverpool was hourly at xx05 whereas EBWs had become xx15 and xx45. Glasgow was xx35 even hours, with odd hours terminating at Preston. So by this time (probably since late 80s/early 90s) much of the full clockface service of the early 80s including hourly services to both Manchester and Liverpool and two-hourly services had been regained, albeit on a different pattern.
 
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Magdalia

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The 1981 timetable was the simplest, most regular clockface of the 80s timetables with this pattern:

xx45 Glasgow (two-hourly, even hours)
xx50 Liverpool (hourly)
xx55 Manchester (hourly)
xx00 Holyhead, Blackpool or Carlisle (varied). Made more stops.
xx10 Birmingham
xx40 Wolverhampton
This was the pattern of service introduced in 1974, when electric traction first ran through to/from Glasgow.

Back in 1974 Milton Keynes Central, Birmingham International and Sandwell and Dudley did not exist. Most Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton trains did not stop anywhere else.

The xx00 trains called at Rugby, then at one of Nuneaton or Stafford before Crewe, though usually not both.
 

nw1

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This was the pattern of service introduced in 1974, when electric traction first ran through to/from Glasgow.

Back in 1974 Milton Keynes Central, Birmingham International and Sandwell and Dudley did not exist. Most Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton trains did not stop anywhere else.

The xx00 trains called at Rugby, then at one of Nuneaton or Stafford before Crewe, though usually not both.
Yes, I remember noting in the 1981 ABC timetable that most of the Euston-Stafford services were provided by the xx00 (not every hour as you say), while by 1983 and 1984, when I actually visited, most Euston-Staffords were Liverpools (with the hourly xx00 not running by then).
 

Bald Rick

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I know the planning and pathing of the WCML to Rugby is a thing of art and mathematics.

To be fair, all timetabling is that. However as in most forms of art (and some will say mathematics!), some of it looks odd, and some is pure genius.
 

nw1

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One slightly tangential question. I remember at one phase the timetable on the slow lines (Northampton etc) consisted of xx24 and xx54 semi-fast (possibly one to Birmingham and one to Northampton, not sure) and xx34 and xx04 stopping (terminating at MKC, I think). There were no true fasts aside from the "Cobblers".
This timetable lasted for many years if I remember right, enough for it to be a clear memory even though I wasn't using the route regularly. In the early 80s there were just 2tph on the slow lines so wondering how long the above pattern lasted?

If I had to guess I'd say it was introduced perhaps in the late 80s or very early 90s as I did own the May GBPTTs for 1988-1990 inclusive, and used to look at all sorts of random routes just out of interest. Perhaps it came in with the 317s or 321s. I could be wrong though.
 
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Merle Haggard

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Put it this way - getting the 2004 WCML timetable from the ashes of previous aspirations took a huge amount of serious hard work , liasion and tough meetings - (but it worked well) and the development of the VHF 2008 built on this. Compromise was not a dirty word.

Freight was also looked after - after very much angst - provision was made for 2x75 mph and 1x60 mph paths Willesden to Northampton on the slow lines , off peak - plus "the best possible" timings for fast Northampton to nail that down.

From such acorns - oak trees flourished (at 125 MPH ! :D )

Fast Northamptons - where did that go wrong?.
 

ac6000cw

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Most Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton trains did not stop anywhere else.
Yes, New Street - Euston was BR's premier IC service in pre-HST days with its combination of speed and frequency. There used to be a large advert on the side of Curzon Street parcels depot saying something like "Birmingham to London every 30 minutes, taking 93 minutes (fastest train)". An average start-to-stop speed of 73mph, done with 100mph Mk2s hauled by 86's, but on a much less busy railway than today.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Fast Northamptons - where did that go wrong?.

The very fast Northampton's were off peak - I think doing only MK and Northampton - using "spare" sets which would have otherwise rested - the peak workings had to do more calls for obvious reasons.

They were in the track access rights , so it was decided to "prove" it , and obviously got a slice of ORCATS revenue - but even in the loco hauled days there were similar workings which were pretty expensive to run when you think of it using MK1's at full length , compared to a sole 321.....
 

Merle Haggard

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Thank you.

Off peak journeys are made generally by leisure (marketing-speak = optional) customers and that market is price-led rather than time-led. I'm not at all surprised that fast off peak trains didn't produce a satisfactory increase in revenue (except by astute ORCATS - raiding) . Perhaps they needed some marketing input :)
 

ChiefPlanner

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Thank you.

Off peak journeys are made generally by leisure (marketing-speak = optional) customers and that market is price-led rather than time-led. I'm not at all surprised that fast off peak trains didn't produce a satisfactory increase in revenue (except by astute ORCATS - raiding) . Perhaps they needed some marketing input :)
Yes but Northampton is not Cambridge or Oxford
 

Bald Rick

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Yes but Northampton is not Cambridge or Oxford

“One of the world’s greatest universities - Oxford, Cambridge, and Northampton”

“Yes but, Oxford is a complete dump”

(With apologies to Richard Curtis and Ben Elton)
 

Rescars

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This was the pattern of service introduced in 1974, when electric traction first ran through to/from Glasgow.

Back in 1974 Milton Keynes Central, Birmingham International and Sandwell and Dudley did not exist. Most Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton trains did not stop anywhere else.

The xx00 trains called at Rugby, then at one of Nuneaton or Stafford before Crewe, though usually not both.
IIRC pre International, some stopped at Hampton-in-Arden. One working which broke the mould was the Clansman, which took the normal route to Wolverhampton, but then continued north to Inverness.
 

Merle Haggard

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“One of the world’s greatest universities - Oxford, Cambridge, and Northampton”

“Yes but, Oxford is a complete dump”

(With apologies to Richard Curtis and Ben Elton)

It's all in jest, I know, but
Northampton was the capital of England from 913 for about two centuries, after the eviction of the Danes.
Northampton Castle (demolished by the L.N.W.R.) was one of the locations of parliament for centuries.
Northampton took the side of parliamentary democracy in the Civil War and paid a heavy price when the monarchy was restored ... ....
Had it survived Northampton University would have been the third oldest after Oxford and Cambridge.- I suggest that Richard Curtis (and possibly Ben Elton) knew that....
 

Bald Rick

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It's all in jest, I know, but
Northampton was the capital of England from 913 for about two centuries, after the eviction of the Danes.
Northampton Castle (demolished by the L.N.W.R.) was one of the locations of parliament for centuries.
Northampton took the side of parliamentary democracy in the Civil War and paid a heavy price when the monarchy was restored ... ....
Had it survived Northampton University would have been the third oldest after Oxford and Cambridge.- I suggest that Richard Curtis (and possibly Ben Elton) knew that....

Messrs Curtis and Elton used Hull as the third university as the hook of the joke.

I must admit I didn‘t know there was a University in Northampton in the 13th century. Everday is a school / university day!
 

Magdalia

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IIRC pre International, some stopped at Hampton-in-Arden. One working which broke the mould was the Clansman, which took the normal route to Wolverhampton, but then continued north to Inverness.
Only a few up morning peak and down evening peak trains called at Hampton in Arden, but that's why it had long platforms.

When it first started, the down Clansman wasn't part of the West Midlands service. Although routed via Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton, all of those calls were pick up only, with a separate Wolverhampton service following 5 minutes behind. The same did not apply to the up train.
 

Merle Haggard

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Messrs Curtis and Elton used Hull as the third university as the hook of the joke.

I must admit I didn‘t know there was a University in Northampton in the 13th century. Everday is a school / university day!
Happily living in Northampton I regard the demise of the University as dodging a bullet...


IIRC pre International, some stopped at Hampton-in-Arden. One working which broke the mould was the Clansman, which took the normal route to Wolverhampton, but then continued north to Inverness.

I recollect that the intention for the Hampton-in-Arden stop was to replace calls on the Paddington - Birmingham service (?Solihull) which ended with L.M. electrification. Curiously, although presumably intended as a park & ride type service the car park (at least currently) is tiny.
 

Magdalia

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Northampton was the capital of England from 913 for about two centuries, after the eviction of the Danes.
What is the factual basis for that assertion?

In 913 England didn't exist, it emerged from the Kingdom of Wessex driving out the Danes by the middle of the 10th century. Its capital is usually recognised to be Winchester.

And the Norman Conquest was in 1066 with London established as capital.

It sounds to me like a lot of cobblers!
 

Merle Haggard

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What is the factual basis for that assertion?

In 913 England didn't exist, it emerged from the Kingdom of Wessex driving out the Danes by the middle of the 10th century. Its capital is usually recognised to be Winchester.

And the Norman Conquest was in 1066 with London established as capital.

It sounds to me like a lot of cobblers!

Well, 913 was the middle of the Dark Ages, there's uncertainty and lots of suggestions so I took the most favourable one - it is on the web :D.

But being one of the seats of Parliament (and location of Royal Court) in rotation, and third University founded is factual.
 

LowLevel

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Put it this way - getting the 2004 WCML timetable from the ashes of previous aspirations took a huge amount of serious hard work , liasion and tough meetings - (but it worked well) and the development of the VHF 2008 built on this. Compromise was not a dirty word.

Freight was also looked after - after very much angst - provision was made for 2x75 mph and 1x60 mph paths Willesden to Northampton on the slow lines , off peak - plus "the best possible" timings for fast Northampton to nail that down.

From such acorns - oak trees flourished (at 125 MPH ! :D )
The main thing I didn't agree with was the trashing of local services in various places in order to accommodate it - the West Midlands skip stopping, loss of the Wolves/Coventry "cross city" and withdrawal of the 3rd Shrewsbury train per hour, the problems around Stockport etc.

WMR's approach to reinstating the 3rd Shrewsbury service by making the stopping trains as bad as the 90s and early 2000s when you had to change at Wolverhampton hasn't helped either.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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The main thing I didn't agree with was the trashing of local services in various places in order to accommodate it - the West Midlands skip stopping, loss of the Wolves/Coventry "cross city" and withdrawal of the 3rd Shrewsbury train per hour, the problems around Stockport etc.

WMR's approach to reinstating the 3rd Shrewsbury service by making the stopping trains as bad as the 90s and early 2000s when you had to change at Wolverhampton hasn't helped either.

I never quite understood the Shrewsbury thing - wasnt the ‘third train’ essentially a Wolverhampton starter in most of the hours it ran? And some hours it didn’t even run beyond Wellington.
 

LowLevel

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I never quite understood the Shrewsbury thing - wasnt the ‘third train’ essentially a Wolverhampton starter in most of the hours it ran? And some hours it didn’t even run beyond Wellington.
There were latterly 3 trains:

Wales/Chester to Birmingham semi fast

Shrewsbury to Birmingham (previously Leicester/Lincoln/Nottingham and other random destinations per Central Trains) semi fast

Wellington to Walsall stopper

The second fast train an hour was withdrawn and the WalsallWelly as it was known became a Shrewsbury - Birmingham stopper.

The Aberystwyths in particular were both very overcrowded and extremely unreliable, often only making it to Wolves.

In the peaks there were a mix of the "Wales" trains making extra calls and a few extra Central services.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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There were latterly 3 trains:

Wales/Chester to Birmingham semi fast

Shrewsbury to Birmingham (previously Leicester/Lincoln/Nottingham and other random destinations per Central Trains) semi fast

Wellington to Walsall stopper

The second fast train an hour was withdrawn and the WalsallWelly as it was known became a Shrewsbury - Birmingham stopper.

The Aberystwyths in particular were both very overcrowded and extremely unreliable, often only making it to Wolves.

In the peaks there were a mix of the "Wales" trains making extra calls and a few extra Central services.

Ah cheers for explaining. So technically it was the ‘second’ train that was withdrawn each hour, with the first and third retained. (My brain logic at least.)
 

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The main thing I didn't agree with was the trashing of local services in various places in order to accommodate it - the West Midlands skip stopping, loss of the Wolves/Coventry "cross city" and withdrawal of the 3rd Shrewsbury train per hour, the problems around Stockport etc.

WMR's approach to reinstating the 3rd Shrewsbury service by making the stopping trains as bad as the 90s and early 2000s when you had to change at Wolverhampton hasn't helped either.

Trust me - very detailed on board surveys and interviews took place before skip stopping Wolves - Coventry - and there were very little real traffic for the skipped stations twixt pairs (I have said before the Cov corridor is where the service re-specification began - decisions were not taken lightly.) - do not forget the new platfrom and bridge at Wolves which was used in anger on day 1 (points failure elsewhere that day) in Wolves

Yes - Stockport suffered badly - but the major infrastructure works did not go well to say the very least.

(Apologies for not much detail - just in from hospital after a 2 day series of operations - so I need my bed PDQ)
 
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