Extortionate excess rail fare (super off peak)

[hedgehog_fan]

Hi,

I wanted to seek your advice on the following situation.

Yesterday, I was on the 18.03 train travelling from Reading to Exeter St. David's. I was using the return leg of a super off peak return ticket to board the train.

When the ticket inspector checked my ticket 45 minutes later, he said that it wasn't valid on that train because it was a super off peak. He asked me to pay 51.10 pounds in excess rail fare, claiming he was giving me a big discount because I had boarded the train unaware of the situation.

I find the 51.10 pounds excess fare shocking for multiple reasons:

- When I previously boarded the train in Newbury at 18.18 it qualified as a super off peak train. The ticket inspector confirmed that the train was a super off peak train from Newbury to Exeter but not from Reading to Exeter. Surely the problem therefore was not that I was on the wrong train after Newbury but only on the wrong train between Reading and Newbury? A single ticket from Reading to Newbury costs 8.20 pounds on that train.

- I paid 88.10 pounds for the super off peak return from Exeter to Reading. An off-peak return costs 124.70. The difference between these two prices is 36.60 pounds.

- If I bought a single ticket for the identical train today it would cost 56 pounds, less than 5 pounds more than I was charged for the "excess" rail ticket in addition to my existing ticket.

I'm really upset with myself as I could have easily taken a later train to go home, but never even considered this could be an issue in the first place, given that I had taken this train before (from Newbury) and not encountered that problem.

I would be really grateful for any feedback on this situation and advice on what I can do to perhaps get a partial refund for this extremely expensive excess rail ticket!

Many thanks,
Nina

 

[AlterEgo]

So to confirm, you held a Reading to Exeter super off peak return, priced at £88.10?

This ticket has the following restriction: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/xc/

And importantly:

Return Travel​

Not valid on trains timed to depart:

• London Paddington after 04:29 and before 10:10 and after 15:04 and before 19:01;
• Reading after 04:29 and before 10:30 and after 15:31 and before 19:01;

Could you post copies of your tickets and the excess fare charged here so we can see exactly what has happened?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your ticket indeed wasn't valid because it's not valid on:

Not valid on trains timed to depart:

• Reading after 04:29 and before 10:30 and after 15:31 and before 19:01;

The validity is determined by the ticket's restrictions, not the train.

The correct remedy for this is indeed an excess. This would be to an Anytime Return at £248.20, so an excess of £160.10. Or he could have sold a new Anytime Day Single at around £124. The Off Peak is also not valid as it too has an evening restriction:

Reading after 04:29 and before 09:39 and after 17:03 and before 18:56

I'm struggling to see how he got to fifty quid, but he has certainly done you a massive favour.

 

[hedgehog_fan]

Thanks for your replies so far!
Here are the requested copies of the super off peak ticket and the excess fare:

 

[Watershed]

Based on the amount charged I believe the OP was charged the difference between the Off-Peak Single (£73.00) and the Anytime Day Single (£124.10). So the Train Manager has indeed done the OP a big favour, as they could have charged them the difference from the Super Off-Peak Single (£50.70) or (arguably) for a new Anytime Day Single.

Unfortunately the restrictions for travel from Paddington and Reading are different to those from stations west of Reading. Many Off-Peak fares have evening peak restrictions from the former, but under the terms of their agreement with the government, GWR cannot impose evening peak restrictions on regulated fares (such as a Super Off-Peak Return) from stations west of Reading.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really struggling to see how he got to £51.10 - it isn't even the difference between the two singles or between half the returns (which you're not meant to do with a ticket type excess).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2024 ==

Based on the amount charged I believe the OP was charged the difference between the Off-Peak Single (£73.00) and the Anytime Day Single (£124.10). So the Train Manager has indeed done the OP a big favour, as they could have charged them the difference from the Super Off-Peak Single (£50.70) or (arguably) for a new Anytime Day Single.

Unfortunately the restrictions for travel from Paddington and Reading are different to those from stations west of Reading. Many Off-Peak fares have evening peak restrictions for the former but not the latter.

Ah, thanks. Does look like a huge favour! I suspect entering 0 for the ticket number was so it couldn't be traced back (so you may want to redact all the ticket number details or delete the photos so he doesn't get in trouble for it).

 

[methecooldude]

Ah, thanks. Does look like a huge favour! I suspect entering 0 for the ticket number was so it couldn't be traced back (so you may want to redact all the ticket number details or delete the photos so he doesn't get in trouble for it).

Kind of, eTickets don't have 'ticket numbers', and the field doesn't do letters, so with eTickets we normally just put 00000 or 00001

 

[transportphoto]

The full price excess for this would have been £160.10 by my calculations.

This is the difference being between the SSR (Super off Peak return) and the SOR (Anytime return) as the cheapest valid return fare.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed; you were - if anything - undercharged!

.... The ticket inspector confirmed that the train was a super off peak train from Newbury to Exeter but not from Reading to Exeter. Surely the problem therefore was not that I was on the wrong train after Newbury but only on the wrong train between Reading and Newbury? A single ticket from Reading to Newbury costs 8.20 pounds on that train.....

GWR charge a huge premium for London/Reading to Exeter; the intermediate fares (including their pricing and terms & conditions) don't count for anything when determining the validity of the actual tickets used for any given journey.

However, as you have discovered at peak times, huge sums of money can be saved by "split ticketing" at places like Newbury; the forum's ticketing website looks at such possibilities and will identify these savings.

If train companies ever get their way, they'll change the system so that higher prices are charged for shorter journeys to/from places like Newbury, but until then, the current system does allow people to avoid the huge charges that train companies try to impose for what they deem to be "premium" journeys.

But you have to be careful; get it wrong and you could be paying a hefty excess. If in doubt, check with us here and we can advise accordingly

Ah, thanks. Does look like a huge favour! I suspect entering 0 for the ticket number was so it couldn't be traced back (so you may want to redact all the ticket number details or delete the photos so he doesn't get in trouble for it).

There is no such "tracing back"; that's a myth. Any digits can be entered (it's cropped up a few times, such as here)

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,

I wanted to seek your advice on the following situation.

Yesterday, I was on the 18.03 train travelling from Reading to Exeter St. David's. I was using the return leg of a super off peak return ticket to board the train.

When the ticket inspector checked my ticket 45 minutes later, he said that it wasn't valid on that train because it was a super off peak. He asked me to pay 51.10 pounds in excess rail fare, claiming he was giving me a big discount because I had boarded the train unaware of the situation.

I find the 51.10 pounds excess fare shocking for multiple reasons:

- When I previously boarded the train in Newbury at 18.18 it qualified as a super off peak train. The ticket inspector confirmed that the train was a super off peak train from Newbury to Exeter but not from Reading to Exeter. Surely the problem therefore was not that I was on the wrong train after Newbury but only on the wrong train between Reading and Newbury? A single ticket from Reading to Newbury costs 8.20 pounds on that train.

- I paid 88.10 pounds for the super off peak return from Exeter to Reading. An off-peak return costs 124.70. The difference between these two prices is 36.60 pounds.

- If I bought a single ticket for the identical train today it would cost 56 pounds, less than 5 pounds more than I was charged for the "excess" rail ticket in addition to my existing ticket.

I'm really upset with myself as I could have easily taken a later train to go home, but never even considered this could be an issue in the first place, given that I had taken this train before (from Newbury) and not encountered that problem.

I would be really grateful for any feedback on this situation and advice on what I can do to perhaps get a partial refund for this extremely expensive excess rail ticket!

Many thanks,
Nina

It's not great is it but as others are posting, some of the 'walk up' ticket prices for train fares (esp peak times) are pretty eye watering so it does seem that the member of staff could have acted strictly within the rules and charged you a lot more extra.

The problem is that the onus is on the passenger to check the validity of their ticket on different time trains and if the passenger makes the mistake then the consequences can cost a lot.

 

[John R]

It's not great is it but as others are posting, some of the 'walk up' ticket prices for train fares (esp peak times) are pretty eye watering so it does seem that the member of staff could have acted strictly within the rules and charged you a lot more extra.

The problem is that the onus is on the passenger to check the validity of their ticket on different time trains and if the passenger makes the mistake then the consequences can cost a lot.

I would expect the platform displays and announcements at Reading to make it clear that Super and Off Peak tickets are not valid on that service.

Also if that itinerary was put in when purchasing the ticket it would not have offered that fare surely?

 

[yorkie]

Also if that itinerary was put in when purchasing the ticket it would not have offered that fare surely?

The restrictions that apply at the time of purchase are taken into consideration; only valid itineraries (as per the data) are offered. If the data subsequently changes, the ticket does remain valid in conjunction with the itinerary, as per the terms of the contract.

 

[robbeech]

I would expect the platform displays and announcements at Reading to make it clear that Super and Off Peak tickets are not valid on that service.

Unfortunately that’s not quite how it works.

Some displays DO say things like that but there’s a strong argument to suggest they’re wrong for doing so.

Whilst an off peak London or Reading to Exeter would not be valid, an off peak Ipswich to Exeter would be so by stating off peak isn’t valid would be seen to be adding further restrictions to people’s journeys.

Whilst few people would break their journey at Reading, they’d all be boarding a connecting train at Paddington so signs there would be misleading.

 

[hedgehog_fan]

Thanks for all your helpful feedback!!

What some of you say about potentially even larger fees certainly puts things into perspective, but frankly I'm still shocked that the situation is what it is.

I always thought peak hour trains were only in the mornings and that it was determined by customer demand--the train yesterday certainly couldn't have been any less busy than it was...



So yes of course it was my mistake not to check in advance whether my ticket was valid on this train but frankly it's hard to understand from a rational point of view how this should qualify as anything other than super off peak and how a 55 pound excess ticket should be considered good luck--certainly wouldn't have happened in any other European country

 

[Idon'tKnow]

certainly wouldn't have happened in any other European country

Having to pay extra when your ticket is invalid is standard in most European countries in my experience!

 

[signed]

Yeah, in most countries in Europe, you'll jusy pay extra and the case ends there

The UK is quite different in its enforcement

 

[Watershed]

Unfortunately peak restrictions have very little to do with demand, at least for intercity operators. They are all about maximising revenue - the idea being that anyone time sensitive (notably, business travellers) will pay the higher fare, while those who are price sensitive will be prepared to wait.

Sadly I cannot see a situation where the Department for Transport will agree for peak fares to be scrapped - or at least for unduly onerous peak restrictions such as this (particularly in the evening) to be lifted. Their myopic approach is that they would rather that trains ran half-empty on taxpayer subsidised infrastructure, than to provide a genuinely useful and affordable public service, if it risks their revenue cash cow being affected.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed; "peak" isn't about trains being busy. It's about maximising revenue.

Train companies do enjoy misleading people into believing that off peak fares are for trains that are less busy*; they also are desperate for customers to book directly with them, to avoid split ticket savings.

Longer distance train companies such as LNER are also keen to abolish off peak fares entirely; they want to charge the Anytime fare to anyone who wants the flexibility to travel on a walk-up basis and/or break their journey.

But this is all covered in existing threads, so I suggest we leave it there!

* This lie can be found at https://www.gwr.com/super-off-peak-terms-and-conditions:

Super Off-Peak fares are cheaper tickets for travelling on trains that are less busy

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for all your helpful feedback!!

What some of you say about potentially even larger fees certainly puts things into perspective, but frankly I'm still shocked that the situation is what it is.

I always thought peak hour trains were only in the mornings and that it was determined by customer demand--the train yesterday certainly couldn't have been any less busy than it was...

View attachment 163645

So yes of course it was my mistake not to check in advance whether my ticket was valid on this train but frankly it's hard to understand from a rational point of view how this should qualify as anything other than super off peak and how a 55 pound excess ticket should be considered good luck--certainly wouldn't have happened in any other European country

Great picture that sums up what’s wrong with peak time ticket pricing post covid travel patterns. So expensive no one is on it!

Sadly govt won’t allow them to change the pricing. In Scotland they have abolished peak fares for this reason iirc

 

[CL395]

Having to pay extra when your ticket is invalid is standard in most European countries in my experience!

I’ve spent months travelling around Europe through 14 countries and the fares and their validity is a heck of alot simpler and easier to check. I think that’s what OP means in this case

 

[John R]

Unfortunately that’s not quite how it works.

Some displays DO say things like that but there’s a strong argument to suggest they’re wrong for doing so.

Whilst an off peak London or Reading to Exeter would not be valid, an off peak Ipswich to Exeter would be so by stating off peak isn’t valid would be seen to be adding further restrictions to people’s journeys.

Whilst few people would break their journey at Reading, they’d all be boarding a connecting train at Paddington so signs there would be misleading.

I’m aware of the inconsistency that you raise, and agree that it is a problem at Paddington.

However, I’m talking about what the current practice is at Reading, which is what is relevant to the OP, not to enter a discussion as to whether or not such information is appropriate.

 

[Idon'tKnow]

Great picture that sums up what’s wrong with peak time ticket pricing post covid travel patterns. So expensive no one is on it!

In my experience people travelling beyond Taunton are on the fast services to Penzance, as they're 30 minutes+ faster. These are some of the busiest services on the GWR network and are often "Pick Up Only" at Reading. It's absolutely right that we're keeping seats available for those making the longest journeys by having peak pricing.

 

[RPI]

Thanks for all your helpful feedback!!

What some of you say about potentially even larger fees certainly puts things into perspective, but frankly I'm still shocked that the situation is what it is.

I always thought peak hour trains were only in the mornings and that it was determined by customer demand--the train yesterday certainly couldn't have been any less busy than it was...

View attachment 163645

So yes of course it was my mistake not to check in advance whether my ticket was valid on this train but frankly it's hard to understand from a rational point of view how this should qualify as anything other than super off peak and how a 55 pound excess ticket should be considered good luck--certainly wouldn't have happened in any other European country

I'm going to hazard a guess that you took this picture after Newbury though, the 17:33 from Pad is usually a rammed nine car as far as Newbury!

 

[jfollows]

I'm going to hazard a guess that you took this picture after Newbury though, the 17:33 from Pad is usually a rammed nine car as far as Newbury!

Hence why a super off-peak return Exeter-Newbury is valid on this train, but a super off-peak return Exeter-Reading isn’t.

 

[TEW]

There is no such "tracing back"; that's a myth. Any digits can be entered (it's cropped up a few times, such as here)

I'm not sure how true that is anymore. With a ticket with a UTN (so an e-ticket, or ticket issued on paper roll stock with a barcode) some TIS will mark the original UTN as excessed provided the full UTN is entered correctly. I don't know whether there is any link with what excess is actually issued though, and there's nothing for credit card sized tickets.

 

[RPI]

Hence why a super off-peak return Exeter-Newbury is valid on this train, but a super off-peak return Exeter-Reading isn’t.

I'm aware of that, I work the train often.

 

[jfollows]

I'm aware of that, I work the train often.

Oh, I was agreeing with you and making the point for the original poster who doesn’t seem to understand the way rail tickets are priced.

 

[WesternLancer]

Oh, I was agreeing with you and making the point for the original poster who doesn’t seem to understand the way rail tickets are priced.

To be fair outside this forum I don’t think there are many people who understand that. And it’s clearly a mix of pricing systems that taken as a whole make little sense to many people.

 

[furlong]

How did you get into Reading station? Did you scan the ticket at the barriers and did they open or not? If they opened in the middle of a period when the ticket was obviously not valid, then you might complain about that.

 

[methecooldude]

How did you get into Reading station? Did you scan the ticket at the barriers and did they open or not? If they opened in the middle of a period when the ticket was obviously not valid, then you might complain about that.

Bit tricky when other operators (like XC) run from there and could have a totally valid Super Off Peak