Could someone explain why ASLEF want Sundays inside the working week?

[kourblimey]

I’d always imagined that Sundays being outside the working week was beneficial for drivers, so how comes the drivers union is seeking to make Sundays inside?

Maybe there are benefits to it that I’m just not understanding, so please could someone explain!

Thanks

 

[The Middle]

Requires more drivers = more members

 

[GordonT]

Requires more drivers = more members

And is in keeping with stated union policy of wanting to reduce reliance on overtime to meet the timetable, notwithstanding that some union members crave overtime as a means of maximising earnings and as has been demonstrated at times of industrial disharmony, the collective exercising of their right not to work non-allocated overtime has historically been used to put pressure on bosses/DfT from the disruption arising.

 

[RexMundi]

I would prefer Sundays in the working week because at the moment unless I can get someone to cover a Sunday I want off I’m forced to work a 6 day week, also I’d be quite happy to use an al day to ensure I got a Sunday off, but I can see the point of others who want to keep them out of the week

 

[ScottGallagher]

And is in keeping with stated union policy of wanting to reduce reliance on overtime to meet the timetable, notwithstanding that some union members crave overtime as a means of maximising earnings and as has been demonstrated at times of industrial disharmony, the collective exercising of their right not to work non-allocated overtime has historically been used to put pressure on bosses/DfT from the disruption arising.

Exactly this, don't the ASLEF top brass care that a chunk of their members might quite like the overtime, granted its not for everyone.

 

[GordonT]

Exactly this, don't the ASLEF top brass care that a chunk of their members might quite like the overtime, granted its not for everyone.

As a bus inspector once remarked to me in the context of his industry and with his tongue slightly in cheek:
"You have to provide a set of work patterns to suit the lazy Bs and a separate set to suit the greedy Cs".

 

[CyrusWuff]

Exactly this, don't the ASLEF top brass care that a chunk of their members might quite like the overtime, granted its not for everyone.

Looking at it from another point of view: If you're reliant on overtime to make ends meet, rather than seeing it as a bonus, you should probably seek financial advice given overtime isn't guaranteed to be available.

 

[GordonT]

Looking at it from another point of view: If you're reliant on overtime to make ends meet, rather than seeing it as a bonus, you should probably seek financial advice given overtime isn't guaranteed to be available.

I'm sure that's perfectly true and likely to be very relevant in some cases. I suspect also that some who crave overtime will not necessarily be in financial difficulty but their mindset is to work as many legal hours as they can. Perhaps domestic life is not a high priority for them, perhaps they actually enjoy their work to the fullest extent, perhaps they are very much a creature of habit and are not looking to change their customary work pattern. In other words the motivation for maximising (or minimising) overtime worked is not a "one size fits all" in most employment settings.

 

[Chester1]

I'm sure that's perfectly true and likely to be relevant in some cases. I suspect also that some who crave overtime will not necessarily be in financial difficulty but their mindset is to work as many legal hours as they can. Perhaps domestic life is not a high priority for them, perhaps they actually enjoy their work to the fullest extent, perhaps they are very much a creature of habit and are not looking to change their customary work pattern. In other words the motivation for maximising (or minimising) overtime is not a "one size fits all" in most employment settings.

A lot of people with well paid jobs will spend every penny they earn but it doesn't follow that they would financially struggle on a slightly reduced income. Their non essential consumption would drop.

ASLEF would struggle to publicly defend opposition to a 7 day working week. It is better for them to get 7 day contracts on favourable terms than have it imposed at a later date.

 

[6Gman]

Exactly this, don't the ASLEF top brass care that a chunk of their members might quite like the overtime, granted its not for everyone.

But the "chunk" is presumably a minority or they'd change the top brass.

 

[Tomnick]

Exactly this, don't the ASLEF top brass care that a chunk of their members might quite like the overtime, granted its not for everyone.

The policy isn't made by "top brass", they just enact it. Elected representatives made the policy, on behalf of their branches, at Conference.

 

[GordonT]

But the "chunk" is presumably a minority or they'd change the top brass.

I imagine that the vast majority will be minded to go along with the elected representatives despite inevitable grumbles from "overtime junkeys" and perhaps from others in specific TOCs who currently relish some personal flexibility in the extent to which they work or don't work on Sundays.

 

[chuff chuff]

Think this goes back the early days of the aslef charter when it was seen as a way of boosting drivers salaries.

 

[wellhouse]

Not sure whether it applies in this particular situation, but I recall reading that TOCs at one time favoured voluntary overtime over 7-day agreements because voluntary overtime did not earn pension contributions, while contracted shifts did.

 

[Taunton]

I'm sure that's perfectly true and likely to be very relevant in some cases. I suspect also that some who crave overtime will not necessarily be in financial difficulty but their mindset is to work as many legal hours as they can. Perhaps domestic life is not a high priority for them, perhaps they actually enjoy their work to the fullest extent, perhaps they are very much a creature of habit and are not looking to change their customary work pattern. In other words the motivation for maximising (or minimising) overtime worked is not a "one size fits all" in most employment settings.

There are many who like to work substantially and get extra money. Rail drivers are paid well above the national average so it is a job which suits them.

Range of reasons. Some like to take the family on holiday to Australia, buy a sports car, or have the kitchen refitted. Others have a new baby, wife not working and earning, high expenditures, want the money to suit this.

Regarding Sunday working, for as long as I can recall trains scheduled on Sundays were (engineering works permitting) as reliable to turn up as on weekdays. It's not really apparent why after 150 years this has changed.

 

[Msq71423]

I would imagine a big reason for the union wanting Sundays to be included would be that the basic salary would be increased to compensate for the loss of overtime. This in turn would increase the final salary pension.

 

[Magdalia]

Regarding Sunday working, for as long as I can recall trains scheduled on Sundays were (engineering works permitting) as reliable to turn up as on weekdays. It's not really apparent why after 150 years this has changed.

In my experience reliability of Sunday service has been a problem for at least 20 years. Looking at things from the outside, I see lots of contributing factors.

The most important is that driving trains has evolved from being a low wage job in the days of steam to a high wage high skill job now. In particular the barriers to entry into what is now a profession are much higher. In the days of steam recruits started as cleaners with only on the job training, and, even when they passed out as drivers, the job was not particularly well paid. Now it takes a long recruitment and training process before a new driver does significant amounts of productive work. When a driver reaches that point, they can earn very decent money without needing overtime.

The second big change is the amount of Sunday working. Until deregulation of Sunday trading and marketing of Sunday leisure travel, started by Network South East, there were very few trains on Sundays. On many lines the service was sparse or non-existent until about 1600. Back then running the Sunday service didn't need many traincrew to volunteer for overtime, and, because the pay was low, many drivers welcomed the opportunity to earn more money.

The third big change is the evolution of safety rules about lengths of shifts and time off between finishing one shift and starting the next. These rules restrict the number of drivers who can fill in uncovered shifts.

The fourth big change is demographic and cultural. When I first took an interest in railways driving trains was entirely for men, and lots of those men had stay at home partners to care for children. They could do a Sunday turn and the children would be cared for by their partner. Now the driving workforce is much more diverse, couples with children will usually both be working, and there is a lot more parent separation to be considered. Finally, I think that the covid pandemic led to a cultural change regarding work-life balance, with more appreciation that people work to live, not live to work.

 

[Lewisham2221]

In my experience reliability of Sunday service has been a problem for at least 20 years. Looking at things from the outside, I see lots of contributing factors.

The most important is that driving trains has evolved from being a low wage job in the days of steam to a high wage high skill job now. In particular the barriers to entry into what is now a profession are much higher. In the days of steam recruits started as cleaners with only on the job training, and, even when they passed out as drivers, the job was not particularly well paid. Now it takes a long recruitment and training process before a new driver does significant amounts of productive work. When a driver reaches that point, they can earn very decent money without needing overtime.

The second big change is the amount of Sunday working. Until deregulation of Sunday trading and marketing of Sunday leisure travel, started by Network South East, there were very few trains on Sundays. On many lines the service was sparse or non-existent until about 1600. Back then running the Sunday service didn't need many traincrew to volunteer for overtime, and, because the pay was low, many drivers welcomed the opportunity to earn more money.

The third big change is the evolution of safety rules about lengths of shifts and time off between finishing one shift and starting the next. These rules restrict the number of drivers who can fill in uncovered shifts.

The fourth big change is demographic and cultural. When I first took an interest in those railways driving trains was entirely for men, and lots of those men had stay at home partners to care for children. They could do a Sunday turn and the children would be cared for by their partner. Now the driving workforce is much more diverse, couples with children will usually both be working, and there is a lot more parent separation to be considered. Finally, I think that the covid pandemic led to a cultural change regarding work-life balance, with more appreciation that people work to live, not live to work.

Can't really argue with any of those points, but I would add a fifth point - that being the state of post-covid industrial relations having the effect of reducing the number of overtime volunteers.

 

[richw]

If they know it’s going to happen at some point in the future, it’s better to get it rolling on their terms and being a few steps ahead.

 

[Falcon1200]

you should probably seek financial advice given overtime isn't guaranteed to be available.

If Sundays are outside the working week, but also rostered, they are indeed guaranteed overtime.

 

[mpthomson]

I would imagine a big reason for the union wanting Sundays to be included would be that the basic salary would be increased to compensate for the loss of overtime. This in turn would increase the final salary pension.

I think that's a very big assumption

 

[SuspectUsual]

If Sundays are outside the working week, but also rostered, they are indeed guaranteed overtime.

Guaranteed contractually and guaranteed in practice can be very different things to people like mortgage providers

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I think I’m right in saying that the Sunday overtime rates are much less attractive than they used to be - from the TOC perspective another consequence of much higher basic salaries, but from the drivers side much less attractive if you’re only being offered (say) time+0.25 rather than double-time or better?

 

[snookertam]

The union may want Sundays in the working week, but plenty of drivers themselves don’t. Here in Scotland all the tea in China could be offered to get drivers to agree to including Sundays and it is unlikely they’ll agree to it. I don’t blame them, it’s an exceptionally powerful position to be in.

 

[RexMundi]

I think I’m right in saying that the Sunday overtime rates are much less attractive than they used to be - from the TOC perspective another consequence of much higher basic salaries, but from the drivers side much less attractive if you’re only being offered (say) time+0.25 rather than double-time or better?

No enhancements at my TOC Sundays are paid at time

 

[chuff chuff]

The union may want Sundays in the working week, but plenty of drivers themselves don’t. Here in Scotland all the tea in China could be offered to get drivers to agree to including Sundays and it is unlikely they’ll agree to it. I don’t blame them, it’s an exceptionally powerful position to be in.

Did see quite a few with pound signs in their eyes when talks were first announced,personally I'll take a bit of convincing.Its not all about money...well for some of us.

 

[12LDA28C]

Not sure whether it applies in this particular situation, but I recall reading that TOCs at one time favoured voluntary overtime over 7-day agreements because voluntary overtime did not earn pension contributions, while contracted shifts did.

Not so much. More the fact that it's much cheaper to cover vacant turns on overtime and Rest Day working by existing drivers than it is to employ more drivers on a full-time driver's salary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

I think I’m right in saying that the Sunday overtime rates are much less attractive than they used to be - from the TOC perspective another consequence of much higher basic salaries, but from the drivers side much less attractive if you’re only being offered (say) time+0.25 rather than double-time or better?

Not all TOCs pay an enhanced hourly rate for Sunday working. It varies considerably between employers.

 

[XCDriver]

We work on average 1 Sunday in every 3 weeks, as overtime, but not voluntary. Thus, Sunday is rostered in our block roster, and we are made to work it if it is our "booked" Sunday, unless it falls before, during, or after our two week Summer Annual leave break, or we decline it, and a volunteer can work it, or we cannot work it (sickness, no 12 hour rest period etc).

We are not paid enhanced rates for Sunday work, and since privatisation, TOC's have virtually been coining it in on weekend services.

Historically, BR ran a Saturday service (roughly half the Mon - Fri service) and the Sunday service was half the Saturday service again!

With the opening of sunday trading etc the cities n towns are now full of ppl at weekends (football on Sunday is more popular, so is days out, gigs etc, the list is now endless).

Trains on Sundays are in some operators, virtually the same service (without the very early morning services) but full and standing.

And it all started back in the start of the 1990's with the Family Funday Sunday ticket.

We want Sunday "inside" ie part of our working week, because we want a 4 day week reflecting the 7 day week we work, not a 4 day week reflecting the 6 day week we work AND A DAY MORE ON TOP!

I have always seen Sunday as a working day since BR days n see nothing wrong with working it, but am heavily in favour of making it part of my working week if it is here to stay now.

 

[Falcon1200]

We are not paid enhanced rates for Sunday work,

So just paid an extra, say, 8 or 12 hours, depending on the length of the Sunday turn, at basic rate, not at say time + quarter or half?

If Sundays were made part of the working week, would Drivers be prepared to accept the reduced hours at the cost of losing that additional take home pay, or would a compensatory increase in basic rate of pay be required?

 

[Coalpits]

We have an opt-in system where drivers who agree to Sunday in the working week have a higher basic salary than those who do not. The merits of this system could be argued over for a millennia, essentially as drivers retire and are replaced by new recruits who have no choice but to accept Sunday in the working week, the industry will evolve.