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I have been caught evading to pay a full price for a ticket and admitted to doing that more than once in the past - several times in the last few months, but never before and also not on all trips; mostly due to extremely high price of peak train tickets and financial struggles at the beginning of the year. I am now waiting for a letter from a prosecution office and wonder what to do next.
I have created a document with all trips where I believe I have been short ticketing - list of fares I paid vs the price I should’ve paid. I also drafted an apologetic letter (I really am sorry and sort of expected something bad to happen eventually) where I state my reasons for occasional fare evasion (not as an excuse though) and kind request to settle out of court and pay what I owe. I also state there that I understand my calculations might be wrong. To be fair I think I made those calculations just to see more or less how much I would need to pay.
Wonder if there’s point in being proactive here and send them my letter or better to wait for them to contact me?
This is with Southeastern Railway and the only way to contact them is by sending the letter by post - couldn’t find an email address to contact them on in regards to MG11.
Any help and advise is hugely appreciated. I have never done anything like that and feel super ashamed and scared.
The experts will be along in due course, but the best thing to do is to wait, although it can be anything from a few days to several months before you hear from them. As long as you gave them your correct name and address you can do little more, but if you go away for more than a day or two, make arrangements about your post: they normally only give you around a couple of weeks to answer their letter. When you do get their letter, come back here, but if the incidents are as few as you suggest you would (in my opinion) have a reasonable chance of getting an out of court settlement. Do NOT bank on them losing the paperwork.
Wonder if there’s point in being proactive here and send them my letter or better to wait for them to contact me?
This is with Southeastern Railway and the only way to contact them is by sending the letter by post - couldn’t find an email address to contact them on in regards to MG11.
No, the ball is entirely in their court at the moment. They have several options available to them at the moment so it's probably best not to force them to commit to a specific course of action. Keep in mind that if Southern want to prosecute they have up until December to lay their case before the court.
You've probably done yourself a disservice by volunteering the information that you have evaded fares on numerous times.
I always advise waiting for the train company to contact you first. They deal with hundreds of cases at a time and it's important that your reply has the specific case reference number. Sending a letter without this is likely to mean it will be ignored. Also, while the letters from Southeastern normally follow the same format, it's important to answer the questions they ask you in their letter, rather than sending somethingthat might not do this.
When it arrives, post a copy of the letter in this thread along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you.
Thanks everyone! I do not hope that they lose the paperwork at all. The only thing I want is to pay and settle without going to court. Never done anything illegal so this situation is terrifying and the only thing I hope for is that I will get a chance to make amends and move on. I will get back here when I get the letter.
Did you get any paperwork? Defiantly an MG11? (I'm just checking I know you have said) There is nothing wrong in working out your own journeys in terms of amount and costs, then compare it to what they send you.
Hopefully you will get this sorted fairly quickly.
Did you get any paperwork? Defiantly an MG11? (I'm just checking I know you have said) There is nothing wrong in working out your own journeys in terms of amount and costs, then compare it to what they send you.
Hopefully you will get this sorted fairly quickly.
No, apart from the MG11 “receipt” at the station I haven’t received anything but this is a very fresh thing.
I have worked out all journeys - it’s been around 15-20 where I paid more or less 50% of the full price peak time ticket; some of them might be legit but at this point it’s hard to tell as it was a few months.
Fingers crossed it’s not going to drag and I can sort it out amicably with them. The worst part is how embarrassed I feel, and to shake this feeling off will defo take a long time…
Thanks everyone! I do not hope that they lose the paperwork at all. The only thing I want is to pay and settle without going to court. Never done anything illegal so this situation is terrifying and the only thing I hope for is that I will get a chance to make amends and move on. I will get back here when I get the letter.
Settling without going to court is obviously a decision for the railway to make; it's not your choice. They can choose what to do: prosecution in court, or a private out-of-court settlement instead. Obviously you want to avoid a court case and criminal record - though settling without going to court won't be cheap.
You refer to having paid part of the cost of the journeys you made without having a valid ticket. Be prepared for the fact that any settlement offer is likely to include you paying the full undiscounted (ie no railcard or other concession or whatever) cost of every single journey concerned (ie not allowing for any saving there might have been if you'd had a return ticket); they're also likely to ignore whatever you did pay, since those tickets weren't valid for the journey you undertook and so are irrelevant. So you can work out what that's all likely to come to; and then they'll add a 3-figure sum for their administrative costs. And if they do offer you such a settlement, it'll all have to be paid quite quickly, in one go - otherwise they'll forget the offer and proceed to court.
If your tickets were bought online, rather than at a ticket office or from a ticket machine, then the railway will be able to trace them all of course - so when they write to you they might already, by then, have figured out all the occasions when you seem to have evaded your fare. (And if they're investigating this first, it could delay when they write to you to ask for your side of the story. So you do need to be patient - as others have said there's absolutely no point in trying to contact them until you hear from them. Presumably they have your accurate name and address, and it's an address where you can continue to receive mail reliably in the coming months?) If they do this, and their list seems plausible, it's best to accept it. If they've made some serious errors (eg because your travel patterns have changed, and some properly-paid journeys look "wrong" only because they're made an inaccurate assumption about your travels), then you might have a chance to explain, and get them to accept that the total cost of your evasions was different. But obviously you don't want to quibble too much if they offer a settlement, in case they decide they don't have time to argue and put it back in the queue for the court system.
Settling without going to court is obviously a decision for the railway to make; it's not your choice. They can choose what to do: prosecution in court, or a private out-of-court settlement instead. Obviously you want to avoid a court case and criminal record - though settling without going to court won't be cheap.
You refer to having paid part of the cost of the journeys you made without having a valid ticket. Be prepared for the fact that any settlement offer is likely to include you paying the full undiscounted (ie no railcard or other concession or whatever) cost of every single journey concerned (ie not allowing for any saving there might have been if you'd had a return ticket); they're also likely to ignore whatever you did pay, since those tickets weren't valid for the journey you undertook and so are irrelevant. So you can work out what that's all likely to come to; and then they'll add a 3-figure sum for their administrative costs. And if they do offer you such a settlement, it'll all have to be paid quite quickly, in one go - otherwise they'll forget the offer and proceed to court.
If your tickets were bought online, rather than at a ticket office or from a ticket machine, then the railway will be able to trace them all of course - so when they write to you they might already, by then, have figured out all the occasions when you seem to have evaded your fare. (And if they're investigating this first, it could delay when they write to you to ask for your side of the story. So you do need to be patient - as others have said there's absolutely no point in trying to contact them until you hear from them. Presumably they have your accurate name and address, and it's an address where you can continue to receive mail reliably in the coming months?) If they do this, and their list seems plausible, it's best to accept it. If they've made some serious errors (eg because your travel patterns have changed, and some properly-paid journeys look "wrong" only because they're made an inaccurate assumption about your travels), then you might have a chance to explain, and get them to accept that the total cost of your evasions was different. But obviously you don't want to quibble too much if they offer a settlement, in case they decide they don't have time to argue and put it back in the queue for the court system.
Yep, I completely understand that it’s up to them to decide how to deal with my case and don’t expect a cheap way out. Although my financial situation is not much improved it is better and hope I can pay off whatever they ask without hassle.
How long does it usually take to hear from them? And is there a cut off date to hear back?
Yep, I completely understand that it’s up to them to decide how to deal with my case and don’t expect a cheap way out. Although my financial situation is not much improved it is better and hope I can pay off whatever they ask without hassle.
How long does it usually take to hear from them? And is there a cut off date to hear back?
The fact they haven given an amount, but want comments means case is not decided on how it will progress. You need to apologise, offer your explanation (and offer to cover their admin costs) and missing fares as part of the comments.
They might accept it, there is commercial logic in taking your money and team moving on to next person. If it goes to court they might wait ages for the funds. But they also need to make example of some as a deterrent (and those that don't respond positively are more likely to move to court. But no one can guess how they will treat it.
The fact they haven given an amount, but want comments means case is not decided on how it will progress. You need to apologise, offer your explanation (and offer to cover their admin costs) and missing fares as part of the comments.
They might accept it, there is commercial logic in taking your money and team moving on to next person. If it goes to court they might wait ages for the funds. But they also need to make example of some as a deterrent (and those that don't respond positively are more likely to move to court. But no one can guess how they will treat it.
That is a standard letter. It invites you to respond to the incident on the date concerned, when you told the inspector that you had short fared before.
Normally, most of us regular posters would say, don't lie but don't incriminate yourself. They will have investigated your travel history, so they know your "previous" anyway.
In this case, though, it would be sensible to ask them if they would consider settling for "this and previous occasions" or some such wording, but not submit your spreadsheet (they have their own!). Use your records to check that the amount they ask for is reasonably accurate.
That is a standard letter. It invites you to respond to the incident on the date concerned, when you told the inspector that you had short fared before.
Normally, most of us regular posters would say, don't lie but don't incriminate yourself. They will have investigated your travel history, so they know your "previous" anyway.
In this case, though, it would be sensible to ask them if they would consider settling for "this and previous occasions" or some such wording, but not submit your spreadsheet (they have their own!). Use your records to check that the amount they ask for is reasonably accurate.
Super helpful, thank you so much. I did plan to include the spreadsheet or an estimate but will refrain if that’s better.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Below is draft of my response - I’d be super grateful for feedback
Hi,
I’m writing in regards to the ticket evasion case in my name.
Relevant witness statement MG11: XXXXXXXX
On the 6th of June I was caught trying to exit St Pancras Station on a so-called “short ticket”. In the process of checking my invalid ticket I admitted that this is not the first time I am trying to avoid paying the full fee and I have been redirected to potential prosecution for my actions.
First of all, I would like to sincerely apologise for my behaviour. I deeply regret it and will never even think of doing it again in the future, nor have I done this again after the incident. It is met with huge regret on my side that it had to come to this scary situation, to push me to look critically at my own behaviour.
I travel a lot between Kent and London via Southeastern, and earlier this year I have been struggling quite a bit financially and in relation to that, with my mental health, which has compelled me to occasionally buy a short ticket from Stratford to St Pancras, and then normal single ticket back from St Pancras to XXX, even though I in fact have travelled from and to XXX. The total for two tickets was around £40, as opposed to the £80 which I should’ve paid, which at the time was a significant saving for me. I did this several times to help my finances which, of course, is absolutely no excuse and was probably one of the worst ideas I ever had, and I am deeply embarrassed that I have been doing that. This is especially shameful for me because I have always prided myself in being the kind of person who would never steal anything, would always call out when being undercharged at stores and always return found valuables. And yet, in this situation for some reason I felt that it’s not the same thing and in my silly head I justified the disgraceful line of action with the high tickets price being or the fact that sometimes trains when were late I didn’t request a refund. I know that this was clearly a very twisted logic and it just adds to my embarrassment because I always thought that I am smarter than that. Being caught, as stressful and terrifying as it is, was fully deserved and is definitely a wake up call for me to revisit what I think about myself and a very clear call to revisit my actions and make amends.
Of course you have no obligation to listen to my query, so all I can do is ask for your understanding, kindness and forgiveness. It would mean the world to me if we could contain my wrongdoing and settle the case outside the court.
I went through the history of my bookings on Trainline and identified those trips where I believe I have been avoiding paying the full price, and calculated the difference between the tickets that I bought for the round trip versus the price that I should’ve paid for that same trip - I used the price of the normal ticket for the full round trip that I usually pay as a reference.
I appreciate that my calculations may be incorrect and the price of the legitimate ticket that I used not right, so please let me know, if you are willing to cooperate on this with me, what is the amount that I owe based on your estimations, plus any administrative costs that are associated with dealing with my case. Finally, I understand that you may not want to take into account the tickets I paid for, and I wouldn’t be surprised if you didn’t, so I only kindly ask you to take them into consideration.
As mentioned at the beginning of my letter, I have been travelling a lot with Southeastern and evaded paying the full ticket price only a fraction of times and I hope that this can also be taken into account, but again, I do not expect that, of course.
I am deeply regretful for my actions, and even more so because all staff of Southeastern Railway have always been very kind, respectful and reasonable when dealing with me - when I accidentally bought a single ticket instead of a return one, after a short conversation, the person at the ticketing office accepted the ticket for the round trip; when I bought a ticket for a wrong day I could change it to the right one without having to pay double fee, and when I didn’t get out on the right station to change trains your personnel helped me sort out the situation and find the best way to get back on track. Also, being part of a community that is extraordinarily fascinated by trains (I’m on the autism spectrum) I feel triple ashamed for what I have been doing.
Once again, I am really sorry, and I would be extremely grateful if you could allow me to settle the case, make amends and put an end to the sleepless nights and intrusive thoughts, for which I only have myself to blame.
Sincerely and with kind regards,
XYZ
It’s quite long, but I wanted to lay out all my thoughts on the situation and express my regrets as accurately as possible, and reassure this is out of character and won’t happen again, but maybe I went too far. Please help.
I’m writing in regards to the ticket evasion case in my name.
Relevant witness statement MG11: XXXXXXXX
On the 6th of June I was caught trying to exit St Pancras Station on a so-called “short ticket”. In the process of checking my invalid ticket I admitted that this is not the first time I am trying to avoid paying the full fee. and I have been redirected to potential prosecution for my actions.
First of all, I would like to sincerely apologise for my behaviour. I deeply regret it and will never even think of doing it again in the future, nor have I done this again after the incident. It is met with huge regret on my side that it had to come to this scary situation, to push me to look critically at my own behaviour.
I travel a lot between Kent and London via Southeastern, and earlier this year I have been struggling quite a bit financially and in relation to that, with my mental health, which has compelled me to occasionally bought a short ticket from Stratford to St Pancras, and then normal single ticket back from St Pancras to XXX. even though I in fact have travelled from and to XXX. The total for two tickets was around £40, as opposed to the £80 which I should’ve paid, which at the time was a significant saving for me. I did this several times to help my finances which, of course, is absolutely no excuse and was probably one of the worst ideas I ever had, and I am deeply embarrassed that I have been doing that. This is especially shameful for me because I have always prided myself in being the kind of person who would never steal anything, would always call out when being undercharged at stores and always return found valuables. And yet, in this situation for some reason I felt that it’s not the same thing and in my silly head I justified the disgraceful line of action with the high tickets price being or the fact that sometimes trains when were late I didn’t request a refund. I know that this was clearly a very twisted logic and it just adds to my embarrassment because I always thought that I am smarter than that. Being caught, as stressful and terrifying as it is, was fully deserved and is definitely a wake up call for me to revisit what I think about myself and a very clear call to revisit my actions and make amends.
Of course you have no obligation to listen to my query, so all I can do is ask for your understanding, kindness and forgiveness. It would mean the world to me if we could contain my wrongdoing and settle the case outside the court.
I went through the history of my bookings on Trainline and identified those trips where I believe I have been avoiding paying the full price, and calculated the difference between the tickets that I bought for the round trip versus the price that I should’ve paid for that same trip - I used the price of the normal ticket for the full round trip that I usually pay as a reference.
I appreciate that my calculations may be incorrect and the price of the legitimate ticket that I used not right, so please let me know, if you are willing to cooperate on this with me, what is the amount that I owe based on your estimations, plus any administrative costs that are associated with dealing with my case. Finally, I understand that you may not want to take into account the tickets I paid for, and I wouldn’t be surprised if you didn’t, so I only kindly ask you to take them into consideration.
As mentioned at the beginning of my letter, I have been travelling a lot with Southeastern and evaded paying the full ticket price only a fraction of times and I hope that this can also be taken into account, but again, I do not expect that, of course.
I am deeply regretful for my actions, and even more so because all staff of Southeastern Railway have always been very kind, respectful and reasonable when dealing with me - when I accidentally bought a single ticket instead of a return one, after a short conversation, the person at the ticketing office accepted the ticket for the round trip; when I bought a ticket for a wrong day I could change it to the right one without having to pay double fee, and when I didn’t get out on the right station to change trains your personnel helped me sort out the situation and find the best way to get back on track. Also, being part of a community that is extraordinarily fascinated by trains (I’m on the autism spectrum) I feel triple ashamed for what I have been doing.
Once again, I am really sorry, and I would be extremely grateful if you could offer allowme to settle the case on payment of the fares and costs duemake amends and put an end to the sleepless nights and intrusive thoughts, for which I only have myself to blame.
Sincerely and with kind regards,
XYZ
It’s quite long, but I wanted to lay out all my thoughts on the situation and express my regrets as accurately as possible, and reassure this is out of character and won’t happen again, but maybe I went too far. Please help.
Many thanks to everyone, I will take your amends into account and prepare a shortened version of this. Appreciate you taking time to read and respond to me!
Thanks so much for editing my version. I tend to over-explain myself so the advice and feedback I received here is hugely appreciated.
Seeing all comments I think I will go ahead with what you propose, with just a few edits, as below:
Hi,
I’m writing in regards to the ticket evasion case in my name.
Relevant witness statement MG11: XXXXXXXX
On the 6th of June I was caught trying to exit St Pancras Station on a so-called “short ticket”. In the process of checking my invalid ticket I admitted that this is not the first time I am trying to avoid paying the full fee.
First of all, I would like to sincerely apologise for my behaviour. I deeply regret it and will never even think of doing it again in the future, nor have I done this again after the incident.
I travel a lot between Kent and London via Southeastern, and earlier this year I have been struggling quite a bit financially and occasionally bought a short ticket from Stratford to St Pancras, and then normal single ticket back from St Pancras to XXX, instead of a full round trip ticket between XXX and St Pancras.
Once again, I am really sorry and deeply embarrassed about this, and I would be extremely grateful if you could offer to settle the case on payment of the fares and any administrative costs associated with dealing with my case.
Sincerely and with kind regards,
XYZ
Two questions:
1. Should I write this by hand on the back of the letter I got or better print it and attach?
2. Should I also send an email to the provided email address?
Two questions:
1. Should I write this by hand on the back of the letter I got or better print it and attach?
2. Should I also send an email to the provided email address?
1. Unless you have the world's most readable handwriting, type/word-process it. In practice, that will probably end up on a separate piece of paper, so we tend to suggest writing something like 'please see attachment' on the back of the letter where they ask for your response, and your name, address and the case reference at the top of your attachment: we've seen a number of cases recently where responses have gone astray within the railway, so it's important to do everything you can to avoid that happening.
1a. I would add that (again, just in case something gets lost) it's good to keep a copy of what you have sent, and
1b. To prove (if necessary) that what you sent was delivered, send it by one of the Royal Mail's tracked or signed-for delivery services: https://www.royalmail.com/sending/uk?iid=RM0524_HP_SER_SEND_UK
2. That sounds like a good plan: I can't see it doing any harm if the railway get two copies of your response
1. Unless you have the world's most readable handwriting, type/word-process it. In practice, that will probably end up on a separate piece of paper, so we tend to suggest writing something like 'please see attachment' on the back of the letter where they ask for your response, and your name, address and the case reference at the top of your attachment: we've seen a number of cases recently where responses have gone astray within the railway, so it's important to do everything you can to avoid that happening.
1a. I would add that (again, just in case something gets lost) it's good to keep a copy of what you have sent, and
1b. To prove (if necessary) that what you sent was delivered, send it by one of the Royal Mail's tracked or signed-for delivery services: https://www.royalmail.com/sending/uk?iid=RM0524_HP_SER_SEND_UK
2. That sounds like a good plan: I can't see it doing any harm if the railway get two copies of your response
I sent the letter and it’s been delivered and signed for about 10 days ago. To make sure it goes to the right department I added Prosecutions at the top of the PO Box address.
Does anyone know how long it takes more or less to get a follow up?
I sent the letter and it’s been delivered and signed for about 10 days ago. To make sure it goes to the right department I added Prosecutions at the top of the PO Box address.
Does anyone know how long it takes more or less to get a follow up?
The TOC is probably researching your booking history (given your admission) which takes time. I think it would take at least 2 -3 weeks given the stages it will have to go through.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
