High Speed Supplement Gravesend-->London St Pancras

[Hybrid]

Does anyone know what the cost of the high speed supplement is for a one way journey from Gravesend to London St Pancras?
Can the supplement be bought on the train?
Can the supplement be bought online?
When exiting at St Pancras is it possible to exit via the automatic barriers when travelling on a supplement?

Is it possible to find the pricing of the supplements online anywhere?

I am trying to work out whether it might be cost effective to buy a non-HS season ticket, and then upgrade to HS services as and when is necessary depending on my schedule. (For example if I am running late in the morning, I could upgrade to HS service).

Thank you!

 

[30907]

It's £5.50 one-way according to: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=GRV&dest=STP&grpd=1072&rte=131&tkt=HUA

Can't answer the rest, sorry.

 

[signed]

Can the supplement be bought on the train?
Can the supplement be bought online?

SE website seems to indicate you can only buy them at TVMs and offices

Highspeed trains | Southeastern

Get there quicker on our 140mph Javelin trains, on the UK’s only highspeed train line, running from London St Pancras International to Ashford International.

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

You can buy daily highspeed upgrades from ticket offices and vending machines.

 

[Hybrid]

Thank you - it looks like there could be a bit of a cost saving, if it is worth the additional hassle.
I wonder about the ticket barriers though. It's probably not worthwhile for me if it's not possible to go through the barriers with the supplement only printed ticket, and instead have to find station staff.

Monthly season ticket Gravesend to St Pancras is £421.70
Monthly season ticket Gravesend to St Pancras including HS is £562.20
Difference = £144.70
This is equivalent to 26 high speed supplements at £5.50 each.

So I could potentially save over £100 a month if I am willing to spend an additional 38 minutes on a train each way... hmm.

 

[paul1609]

When exiting at St Pancras is it possible to exit via the automatic barriers when travelling on a supplement?

Yes, you normally just put the supplement ticket in.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, you normally just put the supplement ticket in.

And even if it's not accepted the staff will be at the gateline.

 

[Alfonso]

gateline at St Pancras always says "seek assistance" when I put in a perfectly valid network card discounted ticket, but never takes more than seconds for a staff member to let me through

 

[PaulJ]

SE website seems to indicate you can only buy them at TVMs and offices

Highspeed trains | Southeastern

Get there quicker on our 140mph Javelin trains, on the UK’s only highspeed train line, running from London St Pancras International to Ashford International.

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

The website is correct, but the OBM will sell you one.

 

[Hybrid]

The website is correct, but the OBM will sell you one.

Does that attract a risk of penalty if you don't have the supplement before boarding? Also, I guess the barrier will not let you through at St Pancras if you only have London Terminals on the season ticket, as the HS platforms are separate from City Thameslink services? So you might be left in the situation of having to buy the supplement at the St Pancras end?

 

[Watershed]

Does that attract a risk of penalty if you don't have the supplement before boarding? Also, I guess the barrier will not let you through at St Pancras if you only have London Terminals on the season ticket, as the HS platforms are separate from City Thameslink services? So you might be left in the situation of having to buy the supplement at the St Pancras end?

You can buy the upgrade onboard without Penalty; condition 9.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel states that you will only be charged the difference in fare (i.e. the upgrade) if you travel on the 'wrong' route:

Where you:
...
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid
...
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using

Southeastern have created HS supplements priced at the difference in fare, to allow their HS OBMs to issue upgrades easily and quickly. You will have no problem paying the upgrade onboard.

It's worth noting that the ability to pay the difference onboard does not apply if you travel on the wrong operator with an operator-specific ticket (e.g. "Thameslink only"), or on the wrong train on an Advance ticket. In these cases you could be issued with a Penalty Fare or worse.

If the OBM doesn't manage to get through to you before St Pancras, you can of course pay the upgrade at the barriers before exiting.

 

[talldave]

gateline at St Pancras always says "seek assistance" when I put in a perfectly valid network card discounted ticket, but never takes more than seconds for a staff member to let me through

Interesting that you mention discounted tickets. Try getting a railcard/gold card discount on an HS supplement!

 

[Hybrid]

Is it possible to get a discount on HS supplement with Gold Card?

 

[Hadders]

Is it possible to get a discount on HS supplement with Gold Card?

Inexplicably a Gold Card cannot be used to obtain a discount but a Network Railcard can. I queried this with Southeastern last year but they didn't really understand the query.

Total madness really, like Stevenage to London with LNER and Milton Keynes to London with Avanti. I live in hope that someone might fix these anomalies as I keep pointing them out on here often enough.....

 

[miklcct]

Inexplicably a Gold Card cannot be used to obtain a discount but a Network Railcard can. I queried this with Southeastern last year but they didn't really understand the query.

Because Southeastern doesn't want to undercut their HS1 season fares!

 

[Hadders]

Because Southeastern doesn't want to undercut their HS1 season fares!

That is absolutely nothing to do with it.

For example, a Hatton to Lapworth Annual Gold Card doesn't undercut any HS1 season ticket but I should be able to use it to obtain a discount on a HS supplement.

 

[miklcct]

That is absolutely nothing to do with it.

For example, a Hatton to Lapworth Annual Gold Card doesn't undercut any HS1 season ticket but I should be able to use it to obtain a discount on a HS supplement.

The logic is that:

I buy a non-HS1 annual season ticket between Ashford and London.
I obtain the supplement to travel on the HS1 between Ashford and St Pancras.
If the HS1 supplement can be discounted by the Gold Card (i.e. the non-HS1 season ticket), the HS1 Ashford - London season ticket itself is undercut.

 

[talldave]

Inexplicably a Gold Card cannot be used to obtain a discount but a Network Railcard can. I queried this with Southeastern last year but they didn't really understand the query.

Total madness really, like Stevenage to London with LNER and Milton Keynes to London with Avanti. I live in hope that someone might fix these anomalies as I keep pointing them out on here often enough.....

I gave up on that one 7 or 8 years ago, so don't hold your breath. IIRC you can get a Gold Card discount on an HS1 Travelcard & on a non-HS1 Travelcard but not on the HS1 upgrade from one to the other.

 

[Hadders]

IIRC you can get a Gold Card discount on an HS1 Travelcard & on a non-HS1 Travelcard but not on the HS1 upgrade from one to the other.

That's right. You can purchase Gold Card discounted tickets that are totally valid for travel on HS1 but a supplement cannot be discounted with a Gold Card.

As I said, it's inexplicable.

 

[Hybrid]

Presumably there would be no discount during peak hours with the Network Rail card for the HS supplement? i.e. in the mornings when I am most likely to want to upgrade!

 

[Watershed]

Presumably there would be no discount during peak hours with the Network Rail card for the HS supplement? i.e. in the mornings when I am most likely to want to upgrade!

That's correct - Network Railcards aren't valid before 10am Mon-Fri, and on weekdays they have a minimum fare of £13 (after 10am). So even with a Network Railcard you would never get a discount on the upgrade, as it's less than £13.

Annual Gold Cards (which you get when you buy an annual season ticket for a journey in the southeast) are slightly different. They aren't valid before 9:30am Mon-Fri and don't have a minimum fare. Therefore in principle you could get a discount on the upgrade in the evening. However, as mentioned above, for reasons best known to themselves Southeastern don't allow Annual Gold Card discounts on the High Speed upgrade.

 

[miklcct]

So even with a Network Railcard you would never get a discount on the upgrade, as it's less than £13.

That's not true with PlusBus, as it is considered a supplement, not a standalone ticket. It is possible to obtain a discounted PlusBus addon even if it is less than £13.

Is this different with HS1 upgrade?

 

[awyatt62]

The upgrade fares are daft because of the way they are set up.

Anyone can use a standard single/ return from ( for example) Rochester as far as Gravesend.

Yet the cost of a standard return from Rochester is £18.00 and the cost of a high speed return is £25.90.

If you, however, get the standard off peak return to London, this is valid to Gravesend & then get the return upgrade from Gravesend, is only 5.60. So the total cost of the return to St Pancras is only £23.60 (£2.30 cheaper).

Obviously means you need to organise the upgrade either on the train or at St Pancras but another daft oddity of the fares system ( & for me, it suggests that Southeastern have actually been overcharging anyone using the high speed service from the Medway Towns and beyond - after all, why should the cost of the High Speed stretch between Gravesend and St Pancras be greater for someone travelling from say, Rochester, than for someone starting their journey at Gravesend? ( And using the same train)

Hope that makes sense!

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Is this different with HS1 upgrade?

Yes, the minimum fare can be different or absent for different ticket type codes, but HUA (the upgrade) has the usual £13 minimum fare while PBD (PlusBus) doesn't have any minimum

 

[talldave]

The trick with HS1 from Gravesend is to buy a ticket to somewhere you're not going (across London) which is cheaper than a GRV to STP HS1 ticket but is valid for travel on HS1. One of the ones I used to use is still available (but I won't mention it for obvious reasons) and is great for getting anywhere down the Victoria line towards Vauxhall - the only hassle being the risk of an argument with London Underground staff who will try to refuse you exit from a tube station (I used to carry a printout of the break of journey rules, which would normally get you a "just this once" exit).

 

[Haywain]

Yes, the minimum fare can be different or absent for different ticket type codes, but HUA (the upgrade) has the usual £13 minimum fare while PBD (PlusBus) doesn't have any minimum

But PlusBus has to go with a rail ticket so there is a not unreasonable assumption that the minimum fare would be applied to the rail ticket.

 

[PaulJ]

It was a thing until recently for High Speed passengers from Wye to purchase Anytime Day Returns to Potters Bar as it saved a lot over purchasing to St Pancras. That loophole was soon closed! There are many anomalies.

 

[cjohnson]

Inexplicably a Gold Card cannot be used to obtain a discount but a Network Railcard can. I queried this with Southeastern last year but they didn't really understand the query.

Total madness really, like Stevenage to London with LNER and Milton Keynes to London with Avanti. I live in hope that someone might fix these anomalies as I keep pointing them out on here often enough.....

Possibly off topic now, but is it still possible to get a Network Railcard for £1 if you are a Gold Card holder?

 

[Starmill]

The upgrade fares are daft because of the way they are set up.

Anyone can use a standard single/ return from ( for example) Rochester as far as Gravesend.

Yet the cost of a standard return from Rochester is £18.00 and the cost of a high speed return is £25.90.

If you, however, get the standard off peak return to London, this is valid to Gravesend & then get the return upgrade from Gravesend, is only 5.60. So the total cost of the return to St Pancras is only £23.60 (£2.30 cheaper).

Obviously means you need to organise the upgrade either on the train or at St Pancras but another daft oddity of the fares system ( & for me, it suggests that Southeastern have actually been overcharging anyone using the high speed service from the Medway Towns and beyond - after all, why should the cost of the High Speed stretch between Gravesend and St Pancras be greater for someone travelling from say, Rochester, than for someone starting their journey at Gravesend? ( And using the same train)

Hope that makes sense!

The Southeastern website says the supplement must match the ticket it's being used to upgrade though. Your idea would therefore only work if the ticket were split at Gravesend.

 

[Haywain]

Possibly off topic now, but is it still possible to get a Network Railcard for £1 if you are a Gold Card holder?

£10.00, not £1.00.

 

[PavlosA]

The trick with HS1 from Gravesend is to buy a ticket to somewhere you're not going (across London) which is cheaper than a GRV to STP HS1 ticket but is valid for travel on HS1. One of the ones I used to use is still available (but I won't mention it for obvious reasons) and is great for getting anywhere down the Victoria line towards Vauxhall - the only hassle being the risk of an argument with London Underground staff who will try to refuse you exit from a tube station (I used to carry a printout of the break of journey rules, which would normally get you a "just this once" exit).

Out of interest, if you purchase something like this, could you still change at Stratford and head to Liverpool Street? Is that still a permitted route, given you wouldn't be travelling on a Gravesend to London Terminals ticket?