Are there any Thames Valley Area Forum Users?

[Forumuser]

Dear Forum Users,

I wanted to know if there are any experienced forum users who are located in this part of the country?

I will be a Defendant at the Magistrates Court.

I would have peace of mind, if an experienced forum user could observe the proceedings from the public gallery.

There have been a myriad of irregularities in the case, and I am sceptical about whether the powers that be would own up to them if the proceedings went unobserved.

Thanks for reading.

 

[bcarmicle]

I suspect you will need to elaborate on the charge, the nature of the irregularities, and why you think that an observer would help before you persuade someone to spare a few hours of their time.

 

[skyhigh]

There have been a myriad of irregularities in the case

If you want to provide details, we might be able to help. Your post is currently very cryptic!

 

[John R]

I suspect you will need to elaborate on the charge, the nature of the irregularities, and why you think that an observer would help before you persuade someone to spare a few hours of their time.

This.

And why would an observer give you peace of mind? By definition, an observer cannot influence the outcome of the trial.

 

[Titfield]

I suspect that you may need legal representation as your representative would be alive to any irregularities and bring them to the attention of the magistrate.

 

[AlterEgo]

Dear Forum Users,

I wanted to know if there are any experienced forum users who are located in this part of the country?

I will be a Defendant at the Magistrates Court.

I would have peace of mind, if an experienced forum user could observe the proceedings from the public gallery.

There have been a myriad of irregularities in the case, and I am sceptical about whether the powers that be would own up to them if the proceedings went unobserved.

Thanks for reading.

It sounds like what you need is a solicitor to defend you, and not an internet anon who is sitting silently in the public gallery.

 

[Haywain]

Dear Forum Users,

I wanted to know if there are any experienced forum users who are located in this part of the country?

I will be a Defendant at the Magistrates Court.

I would have peace of mind, if an experienced forum user could observe the proceedings from the public gallery.

There have been a myriad of irregularities in the case, and I am sceptical about whether the powers that be would own up to them if the proceedings went unobserved.

Thanks for reading.

If you tell us something about your case and the perceived irregularities we can better advise on your situation. Whatever the situation though, an observer in the gallery will be of no help to you.

 

[Forumuser]

Hello everyone. Thanks for your preliminary responses.

@bcarmicle @skyhigh I feel like this thread would very quickly become an 'academic' chat, in the event that no one actually is in or around the Thames Valley area.

This is why I did not feel there was much point in writing a lengthy post until I had cleared that hurdle.

@John R @Haywain I understand completely that an independent observer is unable to actively influence the outcome of any trial.

It's just that, in the past, I have been involved in legal proceedings where only I, the Judge, and the opposing party were in the room.
There was a lot of lying and cheating, but because you are not allowed to make sound or audio recordings of court proceedings, it is impossible to prove allegations of this to the outside world!

In my jaundiced view, I only trust legal professionals when they are involved in highly scrutinised cases e.g. the Gina Miller Brexit, News International phone hacking etc.

As a workaround, I wanted to have a competent observer in the room.

I have seen a myriad of threads in here where you have been incredibly insightful, and helpful, to visitors to the forum.

Thus, even if the case did not go my way, just having the reassurance from them that there was nothing untoward that happened in the courtroom, would give me peace of mind.

@Titfield Legal @AlterEgo legal representation, is of course useful, but it is also very expensive.
I do not feel that the charge is serious enough - even if the prosecutor did end up succeeding - to justify instructing a solicitor.

Also, I do not feel like the issues that I need to address before the Court, are ones that are beyond my competency to explain.

I restate - my concern is about independent scrutiny of the case, and I feel like many of you are well placed to offer that.

I will reach out to law reporters that are situated in this neighbourhood, as I suppose that they spectate court cases anyhow.
I just had in mind that you have a specific understanding of this area of UK law - thus posted in here.

In any event, I will eventually elaborate on the specifics of the case, but I do want to try and cross the first hurdle.

Thanks again for participating in this thread.

 

[John R]

It's just that, in the past, I have been involved in legal proceedings where only I, the Judge, and the opposing party were in the room.
There was a lot of lying and cheating, but because you are not allowed to make sound or audio recordings of court proceedings, it is impossible to prove allegations of this to the outside world!

That sounds like it was a civil case, and assuming you are not accusing the Judge of lying and cheating (or admitting to it yourself), you mean the opposing party was doing it. So I'm not sure why you think this would be reflective of a criminal case, or colour your judgement on the behaviour of legal professionals (which I broadly disagree with, although like any profession, there will be some bad apples in there.)

 

[Titfield]

It's just that, in the past, I have been involved in legal proceedings where only I, the Judge, and the opposing party were in the room.
There was a lot of lying and cheating, but because you are not allowed to make sound or audio recordings of court proceedings, it is impossible to prove allegations of this to the outside world!

In some proceedings you can request (pay for) a transcript of the proceedings. You can also bring someone with you to make a contemporaneous record of what is said. You can ask for the proceedings to be temporarily halted while the note made.

If the opposing party states something that is not true then you should challenge it at the appropriate time in court.

Also, I do not feel like the issues that I need to address before the Court, are ones that are beyond my competency to explain.

It may not be about your competency to explain but your "court craft". A legal representative is usually better able to manage the proceedings and rebut the opposing party. Do not forget the old saying by Abraham Lincoln A man who represents himself, has a fool for a client.

I do not feel that the charge is serious enough - even if the prosecutor did end up succeeding - to justify instructing a solicitor.

Only you know the likely consequences of an adverse outcome but it may be advisable to take some advice to make sure you actually know what the worst possible outcome could be.

 

[Haywain]

In any event, I will eventually elaborate on the specifics of the case, but I do want to try and cross the first hurdle.

Are you charged with a railway ticketing offence and, if so, is it a byelaw offence or a Regulation of Railways Act offence? And are you intending to plead guilty or not guilty? If you are pleading guilty the basic evidence of the offence will be presented and you will be convicted and, most likely, fined. Only if you are pleading not guilty is there really any discussion of the matter and you will have your opportunity to present your defence. I can't see there's anything potentially unusual about your situation unless you are intending to try and defend yourself and if that is the case I suggest you will need to be very confident of the legal basis of your case before you do so, as a defence based on unfairness isn't likely to get far.

 

[Forumuser]

That sounds like it was a civil case, and assuming you are not accusing the Judge of lying and cheating (or admitting to it yourself), you mean the opposing party was doing it. So I'm not sure why you think this would be reflective of a criminal case, or colour your judgement on the behaviour of legal professionals (which I broadly disagree with, although like any profession, there will be some bad apples in there.)

Hi John, both cases were civil proceedings.

In one of those cases the Judge was simply not paying attention to the proceedings in front of him, and I suspect that he had already drafted a Judgment prior to even hearing the case.

The witness on the other side was giving evidence that completely contradicted the evidence the barrister led me to give during cross examination.

I feel like a reasonable Judge would have at least had some questions about that.

In the other case, I had made submissions at the Judge about a discrepancy in a witness statement from the other side. I was disregarded.

In her Judgement, the Judge stated that I had been unable to undermine the evidence of the other side.....

I am sorry to have to colour the legal profession in a way in which you do not like, but please respect my lived experiences.

 

[Haywain]

In her Judgement, the Judge stated that I had been unable to undermine the evidence of the other side.....

A civil case rests on the balance of probability, so the judge has to weigh up two sets of evidence and decide which they believe is most likely to be true. That means you were unsuccessful, not that your evidence was disregarded.

 

[Forumuser]

In some proceedings you can request (pay for) a transcript of the proceedings. You can also bring someone with you to make a contemporaneous record of what is said. You can ask for the proceedings to be temporarily halted while the note made.

If the opposing party states something that is not true then you should challenge it at the appropriate time in court.



It may not be about your competency to explain but your "court craft". A legal representative is usually better able to manage the proceedings and rebut the opposing party. Do not forget the old saying by Abraham Lincoln A man who represents himself, has a fool for a client.



Only you know the likely consequences of an adverse outcome but it may be advisable to take some advice to make sure you actually know what the worst possible outcome could be.

Please read the following article

Judicial behaviour: Bullying in the courtroom

New measures are needed to combat judicial bullying - existing safeguards are not enough.

www.lawgazette.co.uk

That may help explain why I am sceptical of court transcripts.

I completely accept your point about "court craft."

I lack daily experience of managing criminal court proceedings, and do not attempt to hide that.

I sincerely believe that if I was handling proceedings so badly - to date - I expect the court would have brought this to my attention.

I have read through your forums, and have looked at the relevant railway legislation. Of course, an adverse result is undesirable, but I am very aware of what the consequences could be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

Are you charged with a railway ticketing offence and, if so, is it a byelaw offence or a Regulation of Railways Act offence? And are you intending to plead guilty or not guilty? If you are pleading guilty the basic evidence of the offence will be presented and you will be convicted and, most likely, fined. Only if you are pleading not guilty is there really any discussion of the matter and you will have your opportunity to present your defence. I can't see there's anything potentially unusual about your situation unless you are intending to try and defend yourself and if that is the case I suggest you will need to be very confident of the legal basis of your case before you do so, as a defence based on unfairness isn't likely to get far.

I am being charged under Regulation of Railways Act.

If I explain much further beyond that, then we are embarking on the academic chat that I said that I wanted to avoid at the outset of this thread.

I am thankful of your advice though.

 

[BongoStar]

Which court would the presence be required in? If you share the post codes, it might help someone to plan a visit

 

[Forumuser]

A civil case rests on the balance of probability, so the judge has to weigh up two sets of evidence and decide which they believe is most likely to be true. That means you were unsuccessful, not that your evidence was disregarded.

I am listening to your point, but I would have wanted the Judge to address my submission in her Judgment, and then go onto explain why it failed.

I am of the view that court judgments should be fully reasoned?

Thus I am of the view that my submission was disregarded in order that the Judge could dismiss the case.

Please only respond to this point if you are of the view that I have a flawed thought process.

Else we will be going off on a tangent if this sub thread goes any further!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

Which court would the presence be required in? If you share the post codes, it might help someone to plan a visit

High Wycombe Magistrates Court
The Law Courts, Easton St, High Wycombe HP11 1LR

P.S. Thanks for the most constructive response yet!

 

[Haywain]

Please only respond to this point if you are of the view that I have a flawed thought process.

Thanks, that is exactly what I did.

 

[Pushpit]

The judiciary in England and Wales isn't perfect, no human institution can be. It's made worse by a frequent inability to admit to failure and lack of scrutiny. In the Horizon Public Inquiry multiple witnesses have had to squirm in the witness box about their personal failures, and yet not one member of the judiciary that sent innocent people to prison has been asked about their role. Given the legal establishment, that is considered a highly undesirable prospect, namely holding judges to account, and yet it was judges that disregarded defence evidence and instructed jurors not to read the Computer Weekly story online. CW was right, the PO was wrong.

I've had a bit of experience of this - as a witness - when I heard a judge make a terribly prejudicial comment about a disabled juror, based out of ignorance. I wrote to the court (in other words the judge) to explain my concerns, drawing on my clinical knowledge. The judge called me up to open court, I feared the worst, but she said "yes, I made a mistake, you did the right thing to let me know". The point being that I effectively sent in some evidence via my letter, which, with her professional headset on, allowed her to process my comments, and using her professional skills she judged the matter accordingly, rather than using off the cuff prejudice. Unfortunately it is true that the legal and judicial professions are drawn from an incredibly narrow spectrum of UK society. Over time they get daily exposure to real life in the courts, but it's a fine line between independence, asserting the supremacy of the court and sheer arrogance.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that yes you do need to keep your wits around you, but there are ways to communicate mistakes. It's rarely black and white. It's also not unusual for 2 people to go to court with a total conviction that their story is totally right and the other person totally wrong. If you are not as sure as yourself as I am (and I don't suffer from a lack of self confidence) then that is why you have a solicitor or counsel to advise you. They are also humans and mostly are determined that the right thing should happen. Final thought: something which may be painfully important to you may not be so to others. That's life.

 

[Forumuser]

The judiciary in England and Wales isn't perfect, no human institution can be. It's made worse by a frequent inability to admit to failure and lack of scrutiny. In the Horizon Public Inquiry multiple witnesses have had to squirm in the witness box about their personal failures, and yet not one member of the judiciary that sent innocent people to prison has been asked about their role. Given the legal establishment, that is considered a highly undesirable prospect, namely holding judges to account, and yet it was judges that disregarded defence evidence and instructed jurors not to read the Computer Weekly story online. CW was right, the PO was wrong.

I've had a bit of experience of this - as a witness - when I heard a judge make a terribly prejudicial comment about a disabled juror, based out of ignorance. I wrote to the court (in other words the judge) to explain my concerns, drawing on my clinical knowledge. The judge called me up to open court, I feared the worst, but she said "yes, I made a mistake, you did the right thing to let me know". The point being that I effectively sent in some evidence via my letter, which, with her professional headset on, allowed her to process my comments, and using her professional skills she judged the matter accordingly, rather than using off the cuff prejudice. Unfortunately it is true that the legal and judicial professions are drawn from an incredibly narrow spectrum of UK society. Over time they get daily exposure to real life in the courts, but it's a fine line between independence, asserting the supremacy of the court and sheer arrogance.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that yes you do need to keep your wits around you, but there are ways to communicate mistakes. It's rarely black and white. It's also not unusual for 2 people to go to court with a total conviction that their story is totally right and the other person totally wrong. If you are not as sure as yourself as I am (and I don't suffer from a lack of self confidence) then that is why you have a solicitor or counsel to advise you. They are also humans and mostly are determined that the right thing should happen. Final thought: something which may be painfully important to you may not be so to others. That's life.

Thank you for your response.

It was helpful reading.

I felt like the majority of the other respondents on the thread have been accusatory, so it made me reluctant to open up more broadly.

Given your response, I am more inclined to reveal some further information about the case.

HMCTS have accepted that my case was mishandled. The upcoming hearing is to explore all the issues around this.

Specifically, whether I should still be prosecuted.

The problem I have is that I am up against a belligerent prosecutor.

I am not letting it intimidate me, but would be eternally grateful to independent scrutiny, just so the court does not succumb to any further unscrupulous behaviour from the prosecutor

I would respectfully request that further thread contributors be mindful of your point.

inability to admit to failure and lack of scrutiny.

 

[Titfield]

I sincerely believe that if I was handling proceedings so badly - to date - I expect the court would have brought this to my attention.

If this is prior to the court hearing then the Judge may issue case management directions to enable a fair hearing to take place.

You would be extremely unlikely to get a judgement overturned or reviewed for inadequate representation when you were representing yourself.

Whilst a Judge should give full reasoning in a decision, the Judge is not required to address each and every point if it is considered that the reasoning given covers the points on which the case turns.

May I bring to your attention the Equal Treatment Bench Book and the Statement of Expected Behaviour.

Equal Treatment Bench Book: new 2024 edition - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

Read this revised and updated edition of the practical guide, which has been published online

www.judiciary.uk

Statement of Expected Behaviour - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

Read more about the standards of behaviour expected from all judicial office holders

www.judiciary.uk

EDIT

Of course, an adverse result is undesirable, but I am very aware of what the consequences could be.

I apologise if this is indeed the case, but in my experience of a certain jurisdiction as an outsider, consequences of being convicted can be far more reaching than some believe. For example a short driving ban (under totting up) can not only massively increase your insurance premium it can also act as a bar for entering certain transport related occupations for a number of years.

 

[John R]

P.S. Thanks for the most constructive response yet!

To be fair, you’re asking people who you don’t know to turn up for a court hearing without giving any indication as to what you are up for or why you think the hearing might be unfair. So it’s hardly surprising that you have received some less than positive responses.

 

[Jamiescott1]

High Wycombe Magistrates Court
The Law Courts, Easton St, High Wycombe HP11 1LR

P.S. Thanks for the most constructive response yet!

Have you contacted the bucks free press who report on the goings on in wycombe magistrates Court?

 

[AlterEgo]

To be fair, you’re asking people who you don’t know to turn up for a court hearing without giving any indication as to what you are up for or why you think the hearing might be unfair. So it’s hardly surprising that you have received some less than positive responses.

Quite. We don’t even know what has happened or why, or even if the OP intends to plead guilty or not.

And it would be helpful to get an overview of the case, to find out what, if any defence the OP may have. The “academic” discussion may be important.

 

[Pushpit]

HMCTS have accepted that my case was mishandled. The upcoming hearing is to explore all the issues around this.

Specifically, whether I should still be prosecuted.

I would guess you've seen the SJP thread relating to the incorrect use of SJP for some (ok a lot of) passengers? It's a bit of a mess, and the judiciary hasn't covered itself in much glory in failing to spot something that a non lawyer saw to be hiding in plain sight. But there is a determination to rectify this, without wasting too much breath on apologising to those affected.

Are you legally represented for this hearing or are you effectively a litigant in person?

Oh and the court system in this court is structurally adversarial. If the prosecutor seems lacking in balance, they may well be arguing the same point completely differently in their next case. They aren't, unfortunately, expecting to be neutral here, though there are some over-riding fundamentals of justice which are supposed to steer the process. Another interesting feature of Horizon was some very senior lawyers more-or-less admitted to paying lip service to these principles.

 

[Forumuser]

If this is prior to the court hearing then the Judge may issue case management directions to enable a fair hearing to take place.

You would be extremely unlikely to get a judgement overturned or reviewed for inadequate representation when you were representing yourself.

Whilst a Judge should give full reasoning in a decision, the Judge is not required to address each and every point if it is considered that the reasoning given covers the points on which the case turns.

May I bring to your attention the Equal Treatment Bench Book and the Statement of Expected Behaviour.

Equal Treatment Bench Book: new 2024 edition - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

Read this revised and updated edition of the practical guide, which has been published online

www.judiciary.uk

Statement of Expected Behaviour - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

Read more about the standards of behaviour expected from all judicial office holders

www.judiciary.uk

EDIT

Of course, an adverse result is undesirable, but I am very aware of what the consequences could be.

I apologise if this is indeed the case, but in my experience of a certain jurisdiction as an outsider, consequences of being convicted can be far more reaching than some believe. For example a short driving ban (under totting up) can not only massively increase your insurance premium it can also act as a bar for entering certain transport related occupations for a number of years.

The Judge has indeed issued case management directions to ensure that a fair trial can take place.

I am not trying to get a judgment overturned or reviewed for inadequate representation, when I was representing myself.

I reckon that someone trying to do the above would be engaging in an exercise of futility.

The Judgment was overturned under Section 142 of the Magistrates Court Act 1980

In one of the earlier court cases I was involved in, that caused me to be cynical of the judicial system, I do not feel that that Judge provided adequate reasoning on the point on which the case turned.

Though enough said about that case!

I fully accept your point that convictions can have further reaching consequences than one may initially believe.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

To be fair, you’re asking people who you don’t know to turn up for a court hearing without giving any indication as to what you are up for or why you think the hearing might be unfair. So it’s hardly surprising that you have received some less than positive responses.

I am not asking for a personal favour. I am fully aware that I have no friends / kudos in here.

It is just that the majority of you are of the view that British justice is so amazing, nothing goes wrong, blah blah blah.....

On this specific ground is why I was appealing for someone to turn up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

Have you contacted the bucks free press who report on the goings on in wycombe magistrates Court?

Point taken, and I will contact them tomorrow morning.

 

[John R]

It is just that the majority of you are of the view that British justice is so amazing, nothing goes wrong, blah blah blah.....

You've clearly not read quite a few of the threads here then.

And having watched live many of the PO Enquiry Evidence sessions (I'm retired), I'm certainly under no allusion that the British justice system is not perfect, and that private prosecutions in particular (which yours will be) are currently the subject of considerable scrutiny.

 

[Forumuser]

Quite. We don’t even know what has happened or why, or even if the OP intends to plead guilty or not.

And it would be helpful to get an overview of the case, to find out what, if any defence the OP may have. The “academic” discussion may be important.

The "academic" discussion is something I am only prepared to enter, once I had secured the presence of an independent observer.

I will eventually explain everything, as I do think that you provide a useful discussion / advice forum to UK rail users!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

I would guess you've seen the SJP thread relating to the incorrect use of SJP for some (ok a lot of) passengers? It's a bit of a mess, and the judiciary hasn't covered itself in much glory in failing to spot something that a non lawyer saw to be hiding in plain sight. But there is a determination to rectify this, without wasting too much breath on apologising to those affected.

Are you legally represented for this hearing or are you effectively a litigant in person?

Oh and the court system in this court is structurally adversarial. If the prosecutor seems lacking in balance, they may well be arguing the same point completely differently in their next case. They aren't, unfortunately, expecting to be neutral here, though there are some over-riding fundamentals of justice which are supposed to steer the process. Another interesting feature of Horizon was some very senior lawyers more-or-less admitted to paying lip service to these principles.

Hi.

Apologies, I have not read the SJP thread in depth. My basic knowledge of it does suggest that, yes, something is wrong there.

This is not such a case.

I am a Litigant In Person.

I do not know if the overriding fundamentals of justice you are referring to allude to the Code for Crown Prosecutors?

A principle concern of mine, is yes, lip service was paid to that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

You've clearly not read quite a few of the threads here then.

And having watched live many of the PO Enquiry Evidence sessions (I'm retired), I'm certainly under no allusion that the British justice system is not perfect, and that private prosecutions in particular (which yours will be) are currently the subject of considerable scrutiny.

Hi John, I have read many threads

Though the initial responders to my thread felt very dismissive of my grievance.

Thank you for your response!

 

[Haywain]

I am not asking for a personal favour.

It's difficult to see this in any other way.

once I had secured the presence of an independent observer.

An observer attending at your specific invitation cannot be regarded as independent.

 

[Forumuser]

It's difficult to see this in any other way.

An observer attending at your specific invitation cannot be regarded as independent.

The court list is viewable to anyone, it's just that they are unlikely to be informed of the specifics of the cases waiting to be heard, from having read the court list.

I have no plans to drag someone in there kicking and screaming.

I cannot see how I would impede their independence?

I suspect that part of the basis, on which your long serving forum users advise visitors, is having played a part in these prosecutions?

It would have been nice to have had someone attend the hearing - on that basis.

If you wish for me to grovel, then you are sadly mistaken.

In my own time, I will fill in the blanks.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is quite a small number of people here who have any experience of the *actual court process* - as in, having been there themselves, familiar enough with the process to see if there is any “abuse by the magistrates” however that may arise, and with the ability to tell you with any sort of confidence so that (presumably) you might do something about it if or when you lose. They would also need to give up a large part of their weekday - or the whole day - to simply attend, and you want them to agree to do this with no idea as to what they are letting themselves in for.

It’s a really odd request, but that’s just my point of view.