Cross Country Cancellations - Emergency Timetable

[LowLevel]

I think the XC driver training school at Derby might disagree with you. They are now on cohort No 18 of trainee drivers with courses either consecutive or even overlapping. I am pleased that new-to-grade drivers are in practically every driver depot

And how many years has that been ongoing?

As someone who couldn't give a monkeys about driving trains I've not paid too much attention to detail but 10 years ago XC were only poaching drivers and didn't train their own full stop.

The drivers poached since millennium drivers finished are inevitably retiring and cohort 18 or not they don't appear to have trained enough to resolve however many prior years of policy causing shortages. I know plenty more are waiting for an ASLEF pay deal to sling their notices in.

 

[WAB]

The back office functions will have the same issues as frontline staff in harmonising pay/T&Cs after nearly 30 years of each operator going their own way as there will be very little common ground.

Which functions are you thinking of in particular? For many of them, the union representation is unlikely to be so strong, and many will also have enough churn within the grade that leaving it to happen organically has a minimal impact.

 

[Towers]

The back office functions will have the same issues as frontline staff in harmonising pay/T&Cs after nearly 30 years of each operator going their own way as there will be very little common ground.

Except of course that their unions and any industrial action are far less effectual and mostly out of the public eye. Control office staff could have a significant impact of course, but it won’t be gracing the cover of the Daily Mail if the delays team or the projects department decide to go on strike. These are the obvious sort of places to seek opportunities to remove duplication.

 

[cslusarc]

Is cohort #18 the 18th training class since 2007, the 18th training class since COVID or the 18th training class this calender year?

 

[ajp999]

Already during the first two days of the temporary timetable, we have seen additional services being cancelled above those pre-planned and others part-cancelled. Also no evidence of services being strengthened, two consecutive services cancelled between Nottingham and Coleshill Parkway this morning, the following service formed of one single three-carriage Turbostar.

 

[GordonT]

Already during the first two days of the temporary timetable, we have seen additional services being cancelled above those pre-planned and others part-cancelled. Also no evidence of services being strengthened, two consecutive services cancelled between Nottingham and Coleshill Parkway this morning, the following service formed of one single three-carriage Turbostar.

Perhaps they've been using ScotRail as a role model.

 

[Buffer stop]

Do they not need additional staff if they add another set?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Which functions are you thinking of in particular? For many of them, the union representation is unlikely to be so strong, and many will also have enough churn within the grade that leaving it to happen organically has a minimal impact.

Planning and control functions could cause some major impact.

 

[Peterthegreat]

The first northbound train out of Sheffield today which is more than one set is the.....
17.52!

 

[Jimini]

I’m on the 1114 from Reading to Brum at the moment, which I specifically aimed for as it’s a ten-coach set.

Of course, the front five are locked out of use and carting around fresh air, whilst the back half is packed to the rafters! Just another day in XC paradise

 

[Starmill]

. I know plenty more are waiting for an ASLEF pay deal to sling their notices in.

I think this is going to become very awkward at quite a large number of operators. Resignations and retirements will no doubt come flooding in not long after the back pay is received.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

I think the XC driver training school at Derby might disagree with you. They are now on cohort No 18 of trainee drivers with courses either consecutive or even overlapping. I am pleased that new-to-grade drivers are in practically every driver depot

Obviously this is a big improvement, but the issue was that this didn't start earlier. The problems were built up in the early 2000s really.

 

[irish_rail]

I think this is going to become very awkward at quite a large number of operators. Resignations and retirements will no doubt come flooding in not long after the back pay is received.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==


Obviously this is a big improvement, but the issue was that this didn't start earlier. The problems were built up in the early 2000s really.

I think a lot overplay this. Loads of drivers talk about finishing , almost as if it's the cool thing to say, but how many will actually hand in their notice?, I'm not convinced it'll be as many as predicted. Seeing how GBR is going to turn out and how that will affect travel concessions etc will be another factor keeping drivers from going in next 2 or 3 years. I hope for the sake of the industry and travelling public that I am right.

 

[PupCuff]

Deeply frustrating yesterday. Both my trains Derby to Birmingham and back were strengthened to 8 coaches.

...but both had the front four locked out of use due to no available crew, so the other four full and standing.

Bearing in mind that double voyagers can run with one TM and one member of catering staff, that therefore means no catering available on the train either.

It's a really poor show so soon after the assurances they've made in regards to introducing the emergency timetable.

 

[GordonT]

Deeply frustrating yesterday. Both my trains Derby to Birmingham and back were strengthened to 8 coaches.

...but both had the front four locked out of use due to no available crew, so the other four full and standing.

Bearing in mind that double voyagers can run with one TM and one member of catering staff, that therefore means no catering available on the train either.

It's a really poor show so soon after the assurances they've made in regards to introducing the emergency timetable.

Even worse than ScotRail then. At least ScotRail don't normally tantalise passengers by running an additional but locked set whilst the set in use is rammed.

 

[Starmill]

I think a lot overplay this. Loads of drivers talk about finishing , almost as if it's the cool thing to say, but how many will actually hand in their notice?, I'm not convinced it'll be as many as predicted. Seeing how GBR is going to turn out and how that will affect travel concessions etc will be another factor keeping drivers from going in next 2 or 3 years. I hope for the sake of the industry and travelling public that I am right.

The problem is that even a relatively small number of drivers who are at, or close to, minimum pension age, as agreed in their scheme, can unbalance a driver depot for months, or years, if they all go at once. Obviously the terms of the deal may dictate back pay and that may influence matters so fewer choose to go. Obviously there's always a certain amount of "mess room talk" about going, but usually that can be safely ignored.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

Even worse than ScotRail then. At least ScotRail don't normally tantalise passengers by running an additional but locked set whilst the set in use is rammed.

Indeed. Perfectly commonplace for ScotRail to run a double 170 with the guard in the rear and the driver in the front, and no issues.

 

[RadiationVibe]

Is cohort #18 the 18th training class since 2007, the 18th training class since COVID or the 18th training class this calender year?

18th since 2019

 

[Kite159]

...

Indeed. Perfectly commonplace for ScotRail to run a double 170 with the guard in the rear and the driver in the front, and no issues.

And on plenty of other operators which run around with multiple trains combined which have no gangways where the only member of staff in the front unit is the driver.

I've had it a couple of times as the 06:47 (odd) service from Basingstoke towards Manchester on a Saturday is quite routinely a double set for it to roll into Basingstoke with the front set locked out of use with no prior announcements, causing delays with passengers move along the platform to board. Quite annoying, especially after Oxford when it's usually crush loaded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. Perfectly commonplace for ScotRail to run a double 170 with the guard in the rear and the driver in the front, and no issues.

Chiltern, and probably other DOO TOCs, operate completely unstaffed non-gangwayed units. The only member of staff is in the front unit (the driver).

 

[55002]

Deeply frustrating yesterday. Both my trains Derby to Birmingham and back were strengthened to 8 coaches.

...but both had the front four locked out of use due to no available crew, so the other four full and standing.

Bearing in mind that double voyagers can run with one TM and one member of catering staff, that therefore means no catering available on the train either.

It's a really poor show so soon after the assurances they've made in regards to introducing the emergency timetable.

To be fair the SoS did say they must be strengthened, which they have, she didn’t specifically say the extra carriages have to be available to the travelling public. Hahahaha.. this is clearly XC game.

 

[ratbag]

Crosscountry are utterly useless. Their driver recruitment is possibly the worse in the country, and that includes qualified. Peter principle in effect. Beyond useless. Some of the recruiting stories I've heard personally, and reading this forum were quite horrific. Given recruitment was run by incompetents, nobody should be surprised with how the company was run over-all. After my own experience with Cross-country despite having passed the psychometrics in 2020, their recruitment team left a lot to be desired. I had to move from Stevenage, back into London to become a driver. To be frank I would sack 95% of Crosscountry recruitment staff. They didn't even bother with generic bog-standard dear John letters of job rejection sent out via mass group email.

 

[irish_rail]

Crosscountry are utterly useless. Their driver recruitment is possibly the worse in the country, and that includes qualified. Peter principle in effect. Beyond useless. Some of the recruiting stories I've heard personally, and reading this forum were quite horrific. Given recruitment was run by incompetents, nobody should be surprised with how the company was run over-all. After my own experience with Cross-country despite having passed the psychometrics in 2020, their recruitment team left a lot to be desired. I had to move from Stevenage, back into London to become a driver. To be frank I would sack 95% of Crosscountry recruitment staff. They didn't even bother with generic bog-standard dear John letters of job rejection sent out via mass group email.

It always struck me that a Plymouth GWR driver with excellent route knowledge and experience, transferred to Plymouth XC, and was made to relearn ALL routes again. So nearly a year of being completely unproductive just to tick boxes. Hopefully GBR can eliminate this kind of nonsense.

 

[class 9]

It always struck me that a Plymouth GWR driver with excellent route knowledge and experience, transferred to Plymouth XC, and was made to relearn ALL routes again. So nearly a year of being completely unproductive just to tick boxes. Hopefully GBR can eliminate this kind of nonsense.

This was my experience too, I understand the situation arose some years back when a Driver from one of the small 'cowboy' FOCs was recruited by XC, they had an extensive route card, but after some SOL incidents it was discovered their actual route knowledge was somewhat lacking!
This led to a knee jerk reaction by the safety section leading to everyone having the prescribed number of days of route learning.

 

[irish_rail]

This was my experience too, I understand the situation arose some years back when a Driver from one of the small 'cowboy' FOCs was recruited by XC, they had an extensive route card, but after some SOL incidents it was discovered their actual route knowledge was somewhat lacking!
This led to a knee jerk reaction by the safety section leading to everyone having the prescribed number of days of route learning.

Interesting. But really XC shouldn't lump GWR (or other proper TOCs) in with the cowboys who do seem to have absurd route cards in some cases.... "oh yeah I sign that mate, I drove it in 2009 once".

 

[Starmill]

Chiltern, and probably other DOO TOCs, operate completely unstaffed non-gangwayed units. The only member of staff is in the front unit (the driver).

Not a provision I'd personally argue for in any interregional / intercity express service, which is why I didn't use it as an example, however, yes.

 

[GoneSouth]

Not a provision I'd personally argue for in any interregional / intercity express service, which is why I didn't use it as an example, however, yes.

I find it unbelievable that we’ve reached a low in this country where there are potentially hundreds of people on board a train with no other staff than the driver who is hardly in a position to assist with anything if things go wrong. Shameful. And heaven forbid if several people need assistance at any given station

 

[Watershed]

I find it unbelievable that we’ve reached a low in this country where there are potentially hundreds of people on board a train with no other staff than the driver who is hardly in a position to assist with anything if things go wrong. Shameful. And heaven forbid if several people need assistance at any given station

It's been the case for well over 30 years - and has been on several other TOCs too. Hardly "a low in this country"!

 

[Starmill]

I find it unbelievable that we’ve reached a low in this country where there are potentially hundreds of people on board a train with no other staff than the driver who is hardly in a position to assist with anything if things go wrong. Shameful. And heaven forbid if several people need assistance at any given station

It's a long-standing thing but really that's a question for another thread.

 

[Bikeman78]

I think the XC driver training school at Derby might disagree with you. They are now on cohort No 18 of trainee drivers with courses either consecutive or even overlapping. I am pleased that new-to-grade drivers are in practically every driver depot

So why are they in such a mess? Several cuts on Cardiff to Birmingham. Meanwhile, TfW has gone hourly to Cheltenham.

 

[GoneSouth]

It's been the case for well over 30 years - and has been on several other TOCs too. Hardly "a low in this country"!

Just because it’s been going on for 30 years doesn’t make it right, I’ll rephrase, it’s a low we hit 30 years ago and nobody has done anything to fix it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2024 ==

So why are they in such a mess? Several cuts on Cardiff to Birmingham. Meanwhile, TfW has gone hourly to Cheltenham.

Shhhh don’t tell them that, they’ll terminate the Nottinghams at Cheltenham and let somebody else clear up their mess

 

[Bikeman78]

I find it unbelievable that we’ve reached a low in this country where there are potentially hundreds of people on board a train with no other staff than the driver who is hardly in a position to assist with anything if things go wrong. Shameful. And heaven forbid if several people need assistance at any given station

I'd be perfectly happy with a driver in one unit and a guard in the other. Vastly preferable to having one set locked out and having to stand.