Why do some people get frustrated when their ticket doesn't get checked when travelling by train?

[Krokodil]

Looking at the title thread, I should imagine the percentage of such frustrated travellers is very small indeed.

Believe it or not, we did actually have a complaint come in that a passenger hadn't yet seen the guard. On a busy four-car train out of a major city which was (at the time that the complaint was sent) still a long way from the passenger's destination. As it happened, the train had a trainee onboard doing revenue duties under the supervision of a manager. That trainee was working his socks off and simply hadn't got through to that carriage yet. Some people just have nothing better to do than moan.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Believe it or not, we did actually have a complaint come in that a passenger hadn't yet seen the guard. On a busy four-car train out of a major city which was (at the time that the complaint was sent) still a long way from the passenger's destination. As it happened, the train had a trainee onboard doing revenue duties under the supervision of a manager. That trainee was working his socks off and simply hadn't got through to that carriage yet. Some people just have nothing better to do than moan.

I can well imagine the indomitable harridan Hyacinth Bucket would be a typical frustrated rail passenger who would make such a complaint, having previously written to her local sorting office manager complaining she has received mail with second class stamps affixed to the envelopes....

 

[Krokodil]

They don't like that their Railcards are never checked

If I check an old lady's Senior Railcard, the response is often "do you know, you're the first person to ask in ten years..." in a tone of voice that sounded like she was pleased to be asked.

 

[PaulJ]

If I check an old lady's Senior Railcard, the response is often "do you know, you're the first person to ask in ten years..." in a tone of voice that sounded like she was pleased to be asked.

If I’m offered one to inspect, I sometimes say ‘I don’t believe you’ve got one, you’re far too young…’

 

[Skiddaw]

If I’m offered one to inspect, I sometimes say ‘I don’t believe you’ve got one, you’re far too young…’

Hope I get you if and when I'm asked to show my recently-purchased 'old lady' railcard!

 

[Adam Williams]

If I check an old lady's Senior Railcard, the response is often "do you know, you're the first person to ask in ten years..." in a tone of voice that sounded like she was pleased to be asked.

I was quite pleased yet slightly apprehensive to get my railcard scanned on a WMT service month or so ago.

It's the first time I'd ever gotten one of my own railcards scanned, and - given the amount of time I spent myself working on getting the damn barcodes generated in the first place (for them to be ignored 99% of the time!) - was quite satisfying to finally see them get checked in-person.

 

[jamiearmley]

I was quite pleased yet slightly apprehensive to get my railcard scanned on a WMT service month or so ago.

It's the first time I'd ever gotten one of my own railcards scanned, and - given the amount of time I spent myself working on getting the damn barcodes generated in the first place (for them to be ignored 99% of the time!) - was quite satisfying to finally see them get checked in-person.

I'm in two minds about scanning them. A scanned digital Railcard won't detect screenshots where the picture has been changed, but not the date or name.

For now, I'm standing firmly by the colour changing hologram on a live Railcard within the relevant app.

 

[PaulJ]

Hope I get you if and when I'm asked to show my recently-purchased 'old lady' railcard!

I’m sure it will be a pleasure to have you on board.

 

[al78]

It is about reference points.

Start from a position where Person A has £100 and Person B has £100.
Person A buys a train ticket for £50 and has £50 cash

In the event that a ticket check takes place person A is ok, but person B pays a fine of £100 (possibly unrealistic number wise, but the penalty fare could be that). In that situation person A has £50 cash (but has received their train journey at an enjoyment of £50) so we can say they still essentially have the £100. Person B has 0 and did not get the enjoyment of the train journey (if they valued the journey at £50 they would have bought a ticket).

In the event that a ticket check does not take place then A has their £50 plus £50 value from the fare. Person B has £100.

IF these numbers are correct then Person A would indeed have the same happiness irrespective of the outcome. Person B loses out because of the probability that there is a ticket check.

As soon as you change the numbers (e.g. say A pays begrudgingly and only actually values the journey at the equivalent of £30), the balance tips towards B doing better.

Likewise if you assume that the happiness of A depends on what happens to B, then being in the "non-check" state has a cost to A in terms of the disutility of seeing A escape punishment.

Although these numbers are made up, they hopefully illustrate why we may see A feeling annoyed when a check does not take place.

It depends on the probability of getting caught. If there is a 50/50 chance of getting caught and paying the fine using the numbers above there is no gain in the long term for person B dodging the fare, in fact there is a loss because the fare dodger is likely to get prosecuted sooner or later and a criminal record. If there is a 1% chance of getting caught it pays over the long term to take the chance and dodge the fare. The odds can be improved further by person B looking like someone who is dangerous when confronted which reduces the chance of the guard calling them out.

Person A's frustration, assuming they genuinely know person B is dodging the fare is understandable but irrational. Person A cannot do anything about person B's antics so they are best switching off from it, worrying over things beyond your control is a waste of mental energy. The same applies to getting caught in traffic congestion and other people's careless driving which affects you in some way, which is a common source of frustration when driving but where it is best to take a deep breath and calm down.

 

[Skiddaw]

I’m sure it will be a pleasure to have you on board.

Thank you!!

 

[riceuten]

I can't understand it. It's always a faff if ticket's are checked on the trains: take out phone, open app on phone, find ticket. "Railcard, please". Close ticket app. Find app with railcard. Open railcard app, etc.

I'm sure said individuals don't show the same level of frustration when, upon leaving a supermarket, they're not asked to produce their receipt. Make it make sense!

It only really bothers me when there's no checks whatsoever and then there's ASB on the train as a consequence. W had this on the line between Peterborough and Stevenage for ages.

 

[Adam Williams]

I'm in two minds about scanning them. A scanned digital Railcard won't detect screenshots where the picture has been changed, but not the date or name.

For now, I'm standing firmly by the colour changing hologram on a live Railcard within the relevant app.

You're quite right in identifying that limitation re the person's appearance. On a technical level, though, constructing a scannable barcode is much more challenging than displaying the "hologram" within something that looks like the right app, which should not be assumed to be impossible for a sufficiently motivated fraudster to do.

If you do decide to scan the barcode, you should tap on it first, which should open it in full screen. This should give you some confidence it's probably not a screen recording or screenshot.

 

[jamiearmley]

You're quite right in identifying that limitation re the person's appearance. On a technical level, though, constructing a scannable barcode is much more challenging than displaying the "hologram" within something that looks like the right app, which should not be assumed to be impossible for a sufficiently motivated fraudster to do.

If you do decide to scan the barcode, you should tap on it first, which should open it in full screen. This should give you some confidence it's probably not a screen recording or screenshot.

The tapping on it is something I didn't know! Good info, and thank you!

My TOC is not yet scanning barcodes.

Or if we are supposed to be, it's yet another brief which no one bothered to distribute

I know our equipment doesn't scan them, in any case.

 

[Topological]

It depends on the probability of getting caught. If there is a 50/50 chance of getting caught and paying the fine using the numbers above there is no gain in the long term for person B dodging the fare, in fact there is a loss because the fare dodger is likely to get prosecuted sooner or later and a criminal record. If there is a 1% chance of getting caught it pays over the long term to take the chance and dodge the fare. The odds can be improved further by person B looking like someone who is dangerous when confronted which reduces the chance of the guard calling them out.

Person A's frustration, assuming they genuinely know person B is dodging the fare is understandable but irrational. Person A cannot do anything about person B's antics so they are best switching off from it, worrying over things beyond your control is a waste of mental energy. The same applies to getting caught in traffic congestion and other people's careless driving which affects you in some way, which is a common source of frustration when driving but where it is best to take a deep breath and calm down.

Yes, one of the big things that people forget when talking about Economics is that the probabilities involved in individual decisions are individual perceptions of the probability (the expected probability) rather than the true unobserved probability. Previous incidents feed into the expectation, but because 50% of fare evaders got caught in historic data does not mean that the fare evader perceives the probability of them getting caught as 50%. Factors such as "looking dangerous when confronted" further influence those individual percentages.

Your second point identifies well the difference between "rational" in the happiness maximising sense, and "rational" in the monetary value maximising sense. It is entirely irrational to care about B, but IF A does base their happiness on the position of B then considering B is rational. Whether good, or bad, humans have an ability to include things that are irrational in our own happiness.

The numbers in my post were designed to provide a situation where the margins were tight. The more that we think about these two people, the more the story gets richer but the more we can motivate the way that different people act in position A (or B).

 

[Merle Haggard]

Some time ago, a rail enthusiasts' magazine arranged for the SO Virgin Birmingham - Ramsgate & return to have interesting traction on one particular Saturday. I decided to travel on it. partly because of its cross-London routing. It was a Cross Country loco-hauled set with a Buffet FO at the front, seemed the ideal coach to travel in. The team from the magazine were already in it, at the front, talking about railways in a way that people outside the industry do. I was dressed casually for a day at the seaside.

Somewhere around Pouparts Jct the group had a quiet conversation, then one walked back down the train saying 'it's about time for a ticket check' very loudly as he passed me. A few minutes later the conductor appeared, and I presented my first-class pass. He said 'all right, mate?' and spoke to the people at the front.

Nothing more was said, but I wonder if a little lesson was learned...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But would they pay for themselves? How many would be needed? At what cost? (£30k salary, £180 per day) to recoup how much money?

That works out about £20 an hour for an inspector's salary. Let's guess the company incurs another £10/hour cost in NI/admin/training expenses, so if our figures aren't too far out, employing an inspector costs £30/hour. You can easily recoup that cost by issuing 2 penalty fares an hour. Or if the presence of the inspector causes more people to buy tickets, you'd need 3 people each hour to buy a £10 ticket where they would've travelled ticketless before.

How likely is it to achieve that? When I've had tickets checked, it's typically taken a few seconds, but let's be conservative and say the inspector can check only 100 tickets in an hour on average. With those numbers, employing the inspector would pay for itself if - say - 3% of people currently travel ticketless and an average ticket on that line costs £10. Seeing as we're talking about lines with unbarriered stations I would imagine ticketless travel is likely to exceed 3%.

 

[PaulJ]

That works out about £20 an hour for an inspector's salary. Let's guess the company incurs another £10/hour cost in NI/admin/training expenses, so if our figures aren't too far out, employing an inspector costs £30/hour. You can easily recoup that cost by issuing 2 penalty fares an hour. Or if the presence of the inspector causes more people to buy tickets, you'd need 3 people each hour to buy a £10 ticket where they would've travelled ticketless before.

How likely is it to achieve that? When I've had tickets checked, it's typically taken a few seconds, but let's be conservative and say the inspector can check only 100 tickets in an hour on average. With those numbers, employing the inspector would pay for itself if - say - 3% of people currently travel ticketless and an average ticket on that line costs £10. Seeing as we're talking about lines with unbarriered stations I would imagine ticketless travel is likely to exceed 3%.

Yes, but how many would you need? Checking 100 tickets *properly* in an hour is slightly over-optimistic and I’d say 2 penalty hours in a hour is unrealistic. Would you expect an inspector on every train? Would this duty be separate to that of the conductor? What would be the overall cost to the passenger in terms of increased fares?

 

[jumble]

I can't understand it. It's always a faff if ticket's are checked on the trains: take out phone, open app on phone, find ticket. "Railcard, please". Close ticket app. Find app with railcard. Open railcard app, etc.

I'm sure said individuals don't show the same level of frustration when, upon leaving a supermarket, they're not asked to produce their receipt. Make it make sense!

In my view the only people who care if other people are paid are those who don't believe in paying for the services that they use and would get away with it if they thought they would get away with not paying
I personally don't care what standards others observe and I am am mindful that it is probably just a matter of time before they get caught

 

[D6975]

In my experience there appears to be different standards for ticket checking. On longer distance services there is usually an announcement warning that a check is about to take place so have tickets, passes and railcards ready. On suburban and shorter distances there is usually no announcement, the grippers just appear and start checking. This is probably a sensible approach, short leaps being much more likely to have dodgers on board.

ps The furthest I have gone from Bristol before a ticket check is between Dunbar and Edinburgh (route via London)

At the other extreme, when I was up in the North East last October, I had my record number of checks in a short time


1 Onto the platform at Saltaire

2 On the train to Shipley

3 Leaving the platform at Shipley

4 Accessing a different platform at Shipley

5 On the train to Bradford FS

6 Leaving BFS to go to Interchange.



6 checks in rapid succession (about 20 mins)

 

[al78]

Yes, one of the big things that people forget when talking about Economics is that the probabilities involved in individual decisions are individual perceptions of the probability (the expected probability) rather than the true unobserved probability. Previous incidents feed into the expectation, but because 50% of fare evaders got caught in historic data does not mean that the fare evader perceives the probability of them getting caught as 50%. Factors such as "looking dangerous when confronted" further influence those individual percentages.

Your second point identifies well the difference between "rational" in the happiness maximising sense, and "rational" in the monetary value maximising sense. It is entirely irrational to care about B, but IF A does base their happiness on the position of B then considering B is rational. Whether good, or bad, humans have an ability to include things that are irrational in our own happiness.

The numbers in my post were designed to provide a situation where the margins were tight. The more that we think about these two people, the more the story gets richer but the more we can motivate the way that different people act in position A (or B).

A lot depends on personal morals. The frustration from someone dudging a fare and getting away with it is probably not because they feel they could have done the same thing, but because of the sense of injustice that someone is not being held to account for a wrongdoing. Our society functions on the basis that everyone follows rules/regulations and there are consequences for not doing so, even if we sometimes disagree on those rules. I'm sure everyone on this forum is aware that this sort of thing is an unfortunate fact of life and is something that we learn as we develop through childhood, there is no such thing as a just world. Even people we might consider as bad/immoral will have their own sense of justice and will react to violations of boundaries. A good example is the sitcom Only Fools And Horses where Del is a man who will happily con people out of a few quid (sometimes using the excuse they would have done the same to him), even his own brother at times, yet at the same time he has huge love and loyalty to family and would defend them from external threats, physical or financial, even if it meant putting himself at risk.

 

[leedslad82]

For me it's the fare evasion. You often hear people on trains to leeds saying I will just buy one b4 barrier and say I got on at the last stop. It's why fares are so high

 

[The exile]

If I’m offered one to inspect, I sometimes say ‘I don’t believe you’ve got one, you’re far too young…’

In similar vein, when I had my first North West 55 day ticket (1 week after I became eligible), I was really quite depressed not to be asked once to prove I was old enough!!!!

 

[renegademaster]

I'm my experience with railcards, they always check on intercity services but rarely on Local. Even among the same toc , The greater anglia guard checked on my Norwich journey but not on the 2nd leg

 

[johntea]

It was very nice of Banksy himself to inspect my ticket earlier today!

Luckily I wasn't planning to break my return journey really

 

[Birkonian]

My frustration isn't lack of checks on trains but the lack of security at the lift at Liverpool Lime Street. Merseyrail must lose a lot of money from this well known dodge to avoid the gatelines. I get doubly annoyed when travelling with a heavy suitcase that requires use of the lift. The lift is tiny and slow. I often have to wait for some minutes because it is full of able bodied people without luggage. There would be no reason to use the lift if you are able to walk o.k. because it takes longer.

 

[12LDA28C]

My frustration isn't lack of checks on trains but the lack of security at the lift at Liverpool Lime Street. Merseyrail must lose a lot of money from this well known dodge to avoid the gatelines. I get doubly annoyed when travelling with a heavy suitcase that requires use of the lift. The lift is tiny and slow. I often have to wait for some minutes because it is full of able bodied people without luggage. There would be no reason to use the lift if you are able to walk o.k. because it takes longer.

Because people are lazy. I often see people waiting for the lift at my local station when they are clearly able-bodied and would be quicker taking the stairs.

 

[Kite159]

This thread reminds me of Mr Wolmar complaining on twitter in the last couple of days that he went from Manchester to London without a ticket check.

But I agree with @Birkonian merseyrail must be losing a lot of revenue due to that lift at Lime Street, similar with other stations which have an unbarriered exit (Stevenage?).

 

[Travelmonkey]

It is kind of frustrating, especially when you hear people brag, I was on a station om Saturday and a woman was bragging how she got 4 journeys out of her ticket before it was checked,

The only time I tend to get any check is on a intercity service (provided we aren't crush loaded) or on a little branch line I use where I buy my ticket from the guard onboard, I do think better RPI positioning could be utilised especially if there is known events going on,

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Every time I go on a Greater Anglia regional (as long as it's not full and standing) and on my first time on EMR yesterday from Ely to Norwich, I got ticket checked

 

[YorksLad12]

I just did Leeds-Horsforth and return, with no ticket check.

Outbound was a Northern class 170, stopping at Burley Park and Headingley on the way (neither is gated). Return was on the LNER (so wasn't expecting a check, to be honest, it's a long walk for the numbers who board).