Fined for sitting in First Class

[norfenden]

My employer pays for my season ticket (circa £4.5k per year) as part of a Salary Sacrifice scheme and I was under the impression I could sit in any part of the train, given it is a Gold Ticket. However, my ticket was checked at Farringdon station on 6th August (after traveling from Haywards Heath on the Thameslink 0831) and it's only a standard ticket. I pay little attention to these sort of details, of course, maybe I should!

I thought there very little point explaining this to the issuing officer on the Farringdon platform - so just sucked up the usual waffle / procedures. He issued me with a fine of £141.60 and said - and I quote - "I've managed to get this down to £91.60 for you today" - thus making it some sort of an incentive for me to pay this reduced fare before 21st August.

I've submitted my case to the website https://www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/

I was just wondering a few things;

1. How long on average does it take for them to respond to the submission? Do they give you a chance to counter?

2. I'm not holding my breath they'll understand or accept my explanation - but surely having paid for an annual season ticket ( / actually traveling with a ticket, unlike some!) they would look on this case lightly - especially at an initial fine total of £141.60.

and, speaking of which

3. How did they get to a figure of £141.60? And is it common for them to miraculously take £50 off of this total?! Seems an absolute crock to me. Pulling figures out the air.

Thanks in advance! I am a train novice - clearly!

 

[LowLevel]

The fare is £41.60 for a first class single from Haywards Heath with a £100 penalty fare added on top, with a £50 discount for prompt payment.

These are standard figures for a Penalty Fare scheme.

I think it's most unlikely they'd give you any leeway and you're probably advised just to pay it to get the early payment discount once they reject the appeal (as I expect they will) as you don't appear to have what they would consider reasonable grounds for sitting in a first class carriage.

A Gold Card is simply a season ticket in the Network Area that gives you other discounts and bonuses, it makes no reference to whether the ticket is first class or standard class - it's been there for decades.

Annual Gold Card | National Rail

Get great discounts on your leisure travel in the south of England with an Annual Gold Card

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[transportphoto]

Were you at the very front, or the rear, of the train?

 

[norfenden]

The fare is £41.60 for a first class single from Haywards Heath with a £100 penalty fare added on top, with a £50 discount for prompt payment.

These are standard figures for a Penalty Fare scheme.

I think it's most unlikely they'd give you any leeway and you're probably advised just to pay it to get the early payment discount once they reject the appeal (as I expect they will) as you don't appear to have what they would consider reasonable grounds for sitting in a first class carriage.

A Gold Card is simply a season ticket in the Network Area that gives you other discounts and bonuses, it makes no reference to whether the ticket is first class or standard class - it's been there for decades.

Annual Gold Card | National Rail

Get great discounts on your leisure travel in the south of England with an Annual Gold Card

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Alas, this is what I fear, but thanks for clearing a lot of things up.

Would they not take into account that I have a valid annual Season Ticket? Thus to take this off the cost of £41.60? Or do they just want more of your money? Plain and simple?

 

[Vexed]

you're probably advised just to pay it to get the early payment discount once they reject the appeal (as I expect they will)

The time to pay the reduced £50 penalty is paused while the appeal is looked at.

 

[norfenden]

Were you at the very front, or the rear, of the train?

I was in the front, and I am now aware the rear is decommissioned - which is a good life hack!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

The time to pay the reduced £50 penalty is paused while the appeal is looked at.

Good to know - cheers!

 

[Vexed]

Would they not take into account that I have a valid annual Season Ticket? Thus to take this off the cost of £41.60? Or do they just want more of your money? Plain and simple?

No. You've got off lightly here - you could have been reported for prosecution and if you couldn't negotiate an out of court settlement then you would have to pay hundreds and have a criminal record.

 

[skyhigh]

Would they not take into account that I have a valid annual Season Ticket?

No.

Or do they just want more of your money? Plain and simple?

To be blunt, you broke the rules by sitting in a class of travel you weren't entitled to. If the penalty on being caught was just to pay the difference, nobody would bother paying the first class fare.

If you upload the penalty fare in full (with personal details obscured) there may be valid grounds for an appeal based on it being incorrectly issued, but otherwise appealing on the basis of simply being unaware is unlikely to succeed.

 

[Tester]

Alas, this is what I fear, but thanks for clearing a lot of things up.

Would they not take into account that I have a valid annual Season Ticket? Thus to take this off the cost of £41.60? Or do they just want more of your money? Plain and simple?

A very long time ago (well before penalty fares were a thing), you could just pay the excess on board.

Due to inevitable abuse, it changed such that you had to do the excess before travel, otherwise you were considered to be without a ticket.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@norfenden. If the cost of the annual season ticket in question (from Haywards Heath to London Thameslink?) happens to be £4568, then it's certainly standard class only, will say as much (i.e. "STD"), and was likely issued before the March 2024 fare increase.

An equivalent one valid in first class would have cost you £7308.

 

[norfenden]

Thanks all for the feedback. Makes me feel better for just paying the fine, learning from it and moving on with life.

 

[notmyrealname]

Good for you. That's a positive attitude.

 

[Spaceship323]

OP You state that the inspector stopped you on the platform, so what proof do they have that you were actually sitting in 1st?

 

[WesternLancer]

Unless you have a 1st class season ticket you can’t sit in a first class seat. Seems pretty obvious to me. Unsure why anyone would think otherwise really.
Best to pay the penalty issued and chalk it up to a learning experience as it sounds like you have done.

Unusually you can enjoy the luxury of thameslink 1st class for std class prices in the rear compartment, bizarrely. But don’t try that on Southern trains on the route or another penalty beckons….

 

[norfenden]

OP You state that the inspector stopped you on the platform, so what proof do they have that you were actually sitting in 1st?

I was accosted on the train between City Thameslink and Farringdon - and then brandished with a fine on the platform, along with another gentleman.

Genuinely thought my ticket was for all parts. That’s why I just sat there patiently and waited for my ticket to be checked. It now makes sense the carriage was emptying quicker than usual! And anyway, doesn’t STD stand for Special Ticket Department?!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

Unless you have a 1st class season ticket you can’t sit in a first class seat. Seems pretty obvious to me. Unsure why anyone would think otherwise really.
Best to pay the penalty issued and chalk it up to a learning experience as it sounds like you have done.

Unusually you can enjoy the luxury of thameslink 1st class for std class prices in the rear compartment, bizarrely. But don’t try that on Southern trains on the route or another penalty beckons….

Noted!

 

[miklcct]

I was accosted on the train between City Thameslink and Farringdon - and then brandished with a fine on the platform, along with another gentleman.

Genuinely thought my ticket was for all parts. That’s why I just sat there patiently and waited for my ticket to be checked. It now makes sense the carriage was emptying quicker than usual! And anyway, doesn’t STD stand for Special Ticket Department?!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==


Noted!

Also note that both the front and the back compartments are declassified on the Thameslink suburban routes, i.e. Luton - Rainham / Orpington, St Alban's - Sutton and Welwyn - Sevenoaks. Only the regional routes (Bedford / Peterborough / Cambridge - Brighton / Three Bridges / Horsham / East Grinstead) have First Class at the front only.

I usually travel on the front compartment without a First Class ticket on my journey between Farringdon and Kentish Town, because it is always declassified.

 

[norfenden]

Interesting…. So had I said to the inspector that I’d travelled from, say, London Bridge in First (and getting off at Farringdon) then I would have got away with it?

They will obviously have seen I’d scanned in from Haywards Heath from my travel card records - but I could have said I’d moved to First Class at LB? Then the only way to prove this to be the case at that time they would have to refer to CCTV? i.e. not worth their time?

So does a regional TL train become declassified as it moves through suburban areas?

Just interested.

 

[John R]

So does a regional TL train become declassified as it moves through suburban areas?

Just interested.

No, it doesn't.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Also note that both the front and the back compartments are declassified on the Thameslink suburban routes, i.e. Luton - Rainham / Orpington, St Alban's - Sutton and Welwyn - Sevenoaks. Only the regional routes (Bedford / Peterborough / Cambridge - Brighton / Three Bridges / Horsham / East Grinstead) have First Class at the front only.

I usually travel on the front compartment without a First Class ticket on my journey between Farringdon and Kentish Town, because it is always declassified.

This information is at best unhelpful, and is at worst actively liable to cause misunderstanding as demonstrated above for someone who is very obviously commuting between Haywards Heath and London where it is only the back that is of relevance.

 

[WesternLancer]

Interesting…. So had I said to the inspector that I’d travelled from, say, London Bridge in First (and getting off at Farringdon) then I would have got away with it?

They will obviously have seen I’d scanned in from Haywards Heath from my travel card records - but I could have said I’d moved to First Class at LB? Then the only way to prove this to be the case at that time they would have to refer to CCTV? i.e. not worth their time?

So does a regional TL train become declassified as it moves through suburban areas?

Just interested.

No - it's only the services that are mentioned that are declassified in the front section as well. As you travel form Haywards heath IIRC I assume you are unlikely to be on those services very often

Admittedly it is highly confusing to the casual observer!

If in doubt stick to the rear 1st class area. the scrolling info board in that compartment, when it is declassified, confirms that it is available to standard class ticket holders.

I think fwiw the reason for this is hat the DfT want to get rid of 1st class completely on non 'inter city' trains but the same DfT had specified the Thameslink trains and their layout with two 1st class sections (complete with no charging points etc in standard class) before getting the idea of getting rid of 1st class - which was all about peak hours commuting overcrowding in the pre covid era which is now no longer an issue anyway....so I suspect allowing standard class passengers in the rear 1st class area was some sort of compromise over the issue, even though it just leads to confusion!

 

[Hadders]

Just to clarify the position regarding 1st Class on Thameslink trains.

The 1st class compartment at the rear of Thameslink branded trains is always declassified and can be used by a anyone holding a standard class ticket.

In addition the 1st class compartment at the front of Thameslink branded trains is also declassified on certain routes. These routes are normally:
St Albans to Sutton
Luton to Rainham
There might be others - a check of the timetable is needed to check exactly which trains convey 1st class passengers.

Thameslink trains serving Haywards Heath has 1st class in operation at the front.

 

[Steven Taylor]

Just to clarify the position regarding 1st Class on Thameslink trains.

The 1st class compartment at the rear of Thameslink branded trains is always declassified and can be used by a anyone holding a standard class ticket.

In addition the 1st class compartment at the front of Thameslink branded trains is also declassified on certain routes. These routes are normally:
St Albans to Sutton
Luton to Rainham
There might be others - a check of the timetable is needed to check exactly which trains convey 1st class passengers.

Thameslink trains serving Haywards Heath has 1st class in operation at the front.

That is my understanding as well. I use Thameslink at least once a week to Stevenage and Elstree and Borehamwood.

Frankly, it is all very confusing. For example, last Monday I travelled on the 10.12 Kings Cross train - Ely train which was using Thameslink stock despite being a Great Northern service).As usual, I checked whether I can sit in the rear with a Second Class ticket, and was told it was OK (as usual). During the journey, a notice came up on the display to this effect-despite the train being a Great Northern Service (Thameslink does not serve Ely).

 

[Hadders]

Frankly, it is all very confusing.

It could be simplified by removing the declassification altogether. Be careful what you wish for…

 

[Steven Taylor]

It could be simplified by removing the declassification altogether. Be careful what you wish for…

Oops! Point taken.