Should the HS2 train order be reconfigured.

[Brubulus]

While the 200M/400M train lengths were a good idea when the plan was for a significant number of trains to solely run on the HS network, it no longer appears a good idea when most services will use the classic network. Given that most WCML platforms are designed for 11 car Pendolinos, which are around 260M, it seems clear that the order should be varied in order to ensure the maximum capacity for services on the classic network, instead of focusing on the London-Birmingham shuttle

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just one of several gordian knots to be unravelled by the new DfT.
The immediate HS2 Ltd/DfT response is "no", because of the cost and delay to the programme.
It would also ditch a long-standing design principle of the rolling stock spec.
It all hinges on if/where 400m suitable platforms are planned/built on the WCML (currently none).

 

[HSTEd]

Personally, I believe they should be reconfigured into a handful of 400m sets and a fleet of ~275m sets.

However, (it seems that) the powers that be are opposed to such moves because it appears they still hope to ressurrect the programme.
As a result it appears likely that we will be stuck with a woefully inappropriate rolling stock fleet for the next 30 years.


EDIT: edited to make clear it is an opinion

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally, I believe they should be reconfigured into a handful of 400m sets and a fleet of ~275m sets.

However, the powers that be are opposed to such moves because it appears they still hope to ressurrect the programme.
As a result it appears likely that we will be stuck with a woefully inappropriate rolling stock fleet for the next 30 years.

I am inclined to agree with this. Though I'd look at what work would be necessary to use 300m single sets particularly on Manchester services, which would if feasible provide a very significant capacity increase on now.

Alternatively work could be done to give a limited set of stations (e.g. Crewe and Manchester Piccadilly*) 400m platforms to allow for a timetable based on splitting and joining. Maybe this would be better. You could do things like run Euston-Crewe 400m non stop then split with one calling at Preston, Carlisle, Motherwell and Glasgow and the other half Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle (maybe also onto Haymarket and Edinburgh to add capacity that way). Or if pathing is easier include the Liverpools.

It might be that these platforms are cheaper than reconfiguring the unit order and depot.

There are also other places 200m units might be handy, e.g. Manchester-Birmingham and Manchester-Scotland (the latter is rapidly outgrowing 5-car sets, with fake-"sold out" coming up far more often on these than Avanti services). Or TPE post wires?

* In that case it would mean 400m x 3 per hour - there is room on the car park for two 400m platforms. ASDO could be used at other stations, though it could require some points to be moved.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

However, (it seems that) the powers that be are opposed to such moves because it appears they still hope to resurrect the programme.

A week is a long time in politics, and we have a new government. I know money is tight at the moment, but resurrecting the programme in small increments could still happen - but maybe that is me with my rose-tinted glasses on!

 

[signed]

Hasn't the King Speech stated that they wished to put the burial of the later parts of HS2 into law?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hasn't the King Speech stated that they wished to put the burial of the later parts of HS2 into law?

Yes but the scope of that is very vague.
They will not reinstate HS2 Phase 2 as was in the pipeline when Sunak called a halt.
But almost everything else is down to the major capital project review (not just HS2) now in progress, to complete before the budget in late October.

 

[snowball]

They have not announced any intention to repeal the phase 2a Act, which is part of what I would take "burial" to mean. As far as I know they have not announced any intention either to proceed with selling off land, or to halt the process.

 

[HSTEd]

There isn't really any point in Reealing the Phase 2A act, given that the powers within will expire of their own accord on 11th February 2026.

By the time the bill could complete its legislative passage it wouldn't really save much time at all.

 

[Manutd1999]

Personally, I believe they should be reconfigured into a handful of 400m sets and a fleet of ~275m sets.

This seems like by far the most sensible way forward.

 

[philosopher]

If they were to stick to the order of 200m and 400m sets, how easy would it be in the future to remove 2 or 3 of the carriages from the 400m sets and add them to the 200m sets to make 250m or 275m sets?

 

[Trainbike46]

If they were to stick to the order of 200m and 400m sets, how easy would it be in the future to remove 2 or 3 of the carriages from the 400m sets and add them to the 200m sets to make 250m or 275m sets?

they haven't ordered any 400m sets at present, the 400m services where planned to consist of 2x200m trains, at least in the first batch of trains

 

[RailWonderer]

I'm not a lawyer but why does HS2's plans have to be inscribed in law? It's just an infrastructure project, it's a bulk of cash given to a contractor to make it work cheaply, efficiently, and with minimal interruption from big government as possible.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If they were to stick to the order of 200m and 400m sets, how easy would it be in the future to remove 2 or 3 of the carriages from the 400m sets and add them to the 200m sets to make 250m or 275m sets?

That would depend on how the critical equipment is distributed through the train, and whether it is feasible to reconfigure it into a reduced/extended train with similar performance.
For what it's worth, the Trenitalia Frecciarossa 1000 (Zefiro 300) on which the HS2 train is based, also operates as a single 8-car 200m unit or double 400m.
It proved impossible to add just one car to the 9-car Pendolinos, which is why the extension was to 11 cars.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

I'm not a lawyer but why does HS2's plans have to be inscribed in law? It's just an infrastructure project, it's a bulk of cash given to a contractor to make it work cheaply, efficiently, and with minimal interruption from big government as possible.

It's not just an infrastructure project.
HS2 Ltd is responsible for procuring the rolling stock and control systems as well as building the railway.
Their plans are not law, but when Bills have been passed in parliament, and major contracts signed for delivery, it pretty much amounts to the same thing.
Changes at that stage can be very expensive.

 

[snowball]

I'm not a lawyer but why does HS2's plans have to be inscribed in law? It's just an infrastructure project, it's a bulk of cash given to a contractor to make it work cheaply, efficiently, and with minimal interruption from big government as possible.

You need some form of legal authorisation to build anything, to buy land compulsorily, to interfere with existing roads, railways, canals, sewers, electricity lines, gas and water pipes, alter land drainage systems, etc. You may need authorisation to knock down listed buildings or build on protected landscapes.

Otherwise you would be in legal trouble. Hundreds of people would be threatening to sue you.

There is a hierarchy of methods for obtaining such authorisations. For a small project it's just planning consent from the local authority. For a bigger scheme it might be an order under the Transport and Works Act. For a bigger one still it would be a Development Consent Order. For the biggest ones, an Act of Parliament is the only practicable method.

 

[Manutd1999]

Building HS2 infrastructure needs law but I don't think that relates to the rolling stock order? That is something which HS2 Ltd (and indirectly the government) can control, subject to the terms of the contract already signed.

Re-arranging the units into ~275m must be possible, even it involves some re-design of emergency systems etc. The question is how much HS2 would be charged to amend the contract and whether it makes sense to do so.

I think changing the contract is likely to be cost effective compared to the costs of refurbishing/upgrading Pendalino's or building lots of 400m platforms, but it's hard to tell from the outside.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here's a question - how many 200m HS2 units are there to be, and how many units does TPE need post full electrification including Manchester-Scotland services?

Could an option be to send all or nearly all* the 200m units to TPE, and order an entirely new fleet of 275m/300m units for the HS2+classic services, also replacing the Pendolinos on the WCML classic services at the same time?

Sure, it'd be a bit of a waste running 400km/h units at 200km/h, but then there are plenty of units overspecced in speed terms all over the railway, and you could look at e.g. regearing to get absolutely blistering performance?

* You could keep some for the London-Brum services wholly on HS2 plus the Liverpools for which 400m an hour (2tph) is likely to be plenty for the foreseeable due to the limited catchment of Liverpool Lime St.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Could an option be to send all or nearly all* the 200m units to TPE, and order an entirely new fleet of 275m/300m units for the HS2+classic services, also replacing the Pendolinos on the WCML classic services at the same time?

That sounds like a really good idea!

 

[HSTEd]

Here's a question - how many 200m HS2 units are there to be, and how many units does TPE need post full electrification including Manchester-Scotland services?

Could an option be to send all or nearly all* the 200m units to TPE, and order an entirely new fleet of 275m/300m units for the HS2+classic services, also replacing the Pendolinos on the WCML classic services at the same time?

Sure, it'd be a bit of a waste running 400km/h units at 200km/h, but then there are plenty of units overspecced in speed terms all over the railway, and you could look at e.g. regearing to get absolutely blistering performance?

* You could keep some for the London-Brum services wholly on HS2 plus the Liverpools for which 400m an hour (2tph) is likely to be plenty for the foreseeable due to the limited catchment of Liverpool Lime St.

The HS2 order is apparently for 54 200m units.
That's an awful lot for TPE, especially considering a large part of its routes are not going to be electrified in time to use them.
A 200m unit may also have issues at Oxford Road, given that it's absolute longest platform is only ~162m.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So let's see.

TPE has 19 Class 802s and 12 Class 397s which these could replace. Total 31 units. Add in the 185s that presently work North TPE plus keeping some for Birmingham (400m) and Liverpool (200m) that would probably account for all of them.

If there's any spare, 200m would probably be enough for the residual WCML semifast Birminghams and Manchester too.

Just drop the Oxford Road calls if it's that much of a problem - but there is a plan to rebuild that with longer platforms and a central reversing line. The only relevant TPEs that call at Oxford Road are the Scotland ones anyway plus the one hourly Ordsall Chord service (which I think should really be replaced by a Northern Stalybridge-Airport EMU 2 or 4 times an hour anyway) - the South TPE onto the CLC is still going to be diesel (so move the released 802s onto that), everything else goes through Victoria or into the terminal platforms at Picc.

 

[philosopher]

The HS2 order is apparently for 54 200m units.
That's an awful lot for TPE, especially considering a large part of its routes are not going to be electrified in time to use them.
A 200m unit may also have issues at Oxford Road, given that it's absolute longest platform is only ~162m.

Could some of them go to LNER to replace the 5 car class 801 units. The 5 car class 801 units could then be cascaded elsewhere, perhaps to TPE.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Could some of them go to LNER to replace the 5 car class 801 units. The 5 car class 801 units could then be cascaded elsewhere, perhaps to TPE.

The 800/801 fleets (GWR/LNER) are on restrictive maintenance cycles at Hitachi-owned depots.
The same is likely to apply to HS2 rolling stock, to be maintained at Washwood Heath (depot yet to be built as part of Phase 1).
HS2 stock was also intended to be maintained at Crewe and near Gretna, but these two depots are now off the table with the cancellation of Phase 2.
It's not easy to switch rolling stock around these days, partly because of the specialist maintenance by the manufacturer at specific home depots.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The HS2 order is apparently for 54 200m units.
That's an awful lot for TPE, especially considering a large part of its routes are not going to be electrified in time to use them.
A 200m unit may also have issues at Oxford Road, given that it's absolute longest platform is only ~162m.

How many of these 54 trains have been built ?

 

[Crithylum]

How many of these 54 trains have been built ?

To my knowledge, construction starting is still some time away

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How many of these 54 trains have been built ?

None. The detailed design phase is not complete yet.
There is not yet a confirmed production/delivery schedule.
In many ways the procurement and contract award was done too early, given the delays and descoping of the HS2 construction project.

 

[Energy]

It makes more sense to order additional intermediate vehicles than change the existing order should they decide to change the length to 250m.

However, changing the order length assumes that 400m running to Manchester doesn’t arrive at some point. HS2, and everything else transport infrastructure, is under review until the October budget.

Aside from Manchester, everything else is fine with 200m since Liverpool is going 2tph.

 

[Snow1964]

I'm not a lawyer but why does HS2's plans have to be inscribed in law? It's just an infrastructure project, it's a bulk of cash given to a contractor to make it work cheaply, efficiently, and with minimal interruption from big government as possible.

It's to do with compulsory purchase of land, moving utilities, realigning rights of way (bridges to side etc). Infrastructure and capital works.

As far as I am aware there is nothing in law about the type of train or service level or timetable to be operated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It makes more sense to order additional intermediate vehicles than change the existing order should they decide to change the length to 250m.

However, changing the order length assumes that 400m running to Manchester doesn’t arrive at some point. HS2, and everything else transport infrastructure, is under review until the October budget.

Aside from Manchester, everything else is fine with 200m since Liverpool is going 2tph.

200m doesn't work very well for Scotland either.

 

[Sorcerer]

I think that given how much HS2 has been cutback and how unlikely it is in the foreseeable future for the lost phases to be revived, the order for units should be changed to either 250m of 275m units. If an eight coach train is 200m long then each coach is about 25m long, so in that case it's simply a matter of building one or two extra coaches. I feel like 250m is more realistic based on platform lengths and, despite being shorter than an eleven coach Pendolino, it can also be configured to have as many seats (and possibly more) with less coaches.

 

[Nottingham59]

200m doesn't work very well for Scotland either.

Not necessarily. Edinburgh can take 400m trains, and the London-Edinburgh market is three times that of Glasgow.

It would be far better to extend platforms at Crewe, Warrington and Preston to 400m, then just about every train on HS2 out of Euston could be 400m, maximising capacity through the 6tph bottleneck at Colwich.

Under HS2 phase 1, I'd run:

• 2tph x 200m premium-priced "Pullman" express service to Piccadilly via Stoke
• 1tph x 400m splitting at Crewe, to Liverpool and Piccadilly via Wilmslow
• 1tph x 400m splitting at Warrington BQ to Liverpool and Victoria via Chat Moss
• 1tph x 400m splitting at Preston for Scotland
• 1tph x 400m to Edinburgh limited stop, timed to be faster than the East Coast

Overall, that gives 4x200m per hour to Manchester and a great uplift in capacity to everywhere else.

If paths can be found, then Victoria might be able to take 2tph, reversing at Rochdale for the "Ryanair" market segment.