Doncaster Sheffield Airport to reopen?

[GRALISTAIR]

I doubt Teeside as they have a presence at Newcastle.
Ironic that a Secretary of State for Net Zero wants to reopen an airport.

Indeed.

I suppose if you have the same number of flights but less miles needed for passengers to get to the airport then that means a little less pollution.

That is stretching the logic a bit thin!

 

[mpthomson]

I suppose if you have the same number of flights but less miles needed for passengers to get to the airport then that means a little less pollution.

The problem is that the entire catchment area is already covered by other airports so these would be additional flights not instead of and there just aren’t enough people to make it worthwhile.

 

[pug1]

Now the three Doncaster MPs have taken up the case. One is the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero. I do not know if they seriously believe that this airport can be reopened or that it is good policy to reopen this airport or if they are just doing this because they think it will win them votes in future.

There’s also the added issue of pressuring an Aviation Minister into influencing an arms length body designed to look after the safety of all airspace users and NOT to be swayed by political pressure. I can assure you there are ACP applications waiting several years, this one will have to be put to the back of the queue. A review of the ACP by the CAA in 2017 found that, had DSA applied for airspace in 2017 rather than a decade prior it would not have been granted the airspace because the movements it handled in actuality fell well short of the requirements to satisfy approval.

Anyway, TUI may be holding out to see whether they can return. They liked it before as they had the run of the place with no competition. However, they do have a handful of flights from Humberside and Teesside and I’m sure Humberside would welcome more flights with open arms. It was the best selling/highest yielding U.K. airport for Thomson prior to 2005 based on revenue per seat sold. They moved a lot across to DSA when it opened but had it not opened the first time around Humberside would be a lot busier now, it’s also profitable with only a handful of movements.

DSA is still a vanity project with absolutely no longevity or financial viability and will prove to be a financial burden to the rate payers of South Yorkshire. It’s ok though, long as Mavis from Bawtry doesn’t have to travel 40 minutes down the road to EMA for her yearly trip to Benidorm..

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

I suppose if you have the same number of flights but less miles needed for passengers to get to the airport then that means a little less pollution.

Talk about mental gymnastics. Surely with an immediate catchment area of something like 300,000 people, many of low economic activity, you would need people from outside of that core catchment area to drive TO the airport?

We aren’t talking about New York, LA or London here, not even Nottingham/Leicester/Derby. We’re talking about Doncaster. It is not an economic powerhouse, it doesn’t have international visitors coming and going in huge numbers every day. Its sole purpose was and would be a place where people in the region have the option to use to go on holiday. The price sensitive ones will still use the airports with more choice.

 

[Titfield]

This is absolute madness - the beneficiaries will be airlines who negotiate ultra low fees with the airport operator. The losers will be the council tax payers of South Yorkshire.

 

[pug1]

This is absolute madness - the beneficiaries will be airlines who negotiate ultra low fees with the airport operator. The losers will be the council tax payers of South Yorkshire.

The ultra low fees the previous operator offered couldn’t even entice them. So either Peels name was dirt (unlikely given the calibre of the people they had running the place) or the demand wasn’t there and it wasn’t a good investment for the airlines, regardless of how cheap they were.

I’m going for the latter. The council may be taken for a ride here, they’re effectively offering £100m for someone to run it. Think they’ll struggle to get any reciprocal commitment.

 

[westv]

When do we find out who the operator is?

 

[AlastairFraser]

The ultra low fees the previous operator offered couldn’t even entice them. So either Peels name was dirt (unlikely given the calibre of the people they had running the place) or the demand wasn’t there and it wasn’t a good investment for the airlines, regardless of how cheap they were.

I’m going for the latter. The council may be taken for a ride here, they’re effectively offering £100m for someone to run it. Think they’ll struggle to get any reciprocal commitment.

Can they pull Ryanair away from LBA with much lower fees, perhaps?

 

[pug1]

Can they pull Ryanair away from LBA with much lower fees, perhaps?

No. Don’t forget Ryanair chose to open a base at LBS after DSA opened. They also have one of the largest U.K. bases down the road at EMA.

 

[westv]

No. Don’t forget Ryanair chose to open a base at LBS after DSA opened. They also have one of the largest U.K. bases down the road at EMA.

When I have looked (out of curiosity) at Ryanair flight times to/from LBA they were pants.

 

[pug1]

When I have looked (out of curiosity) at Ryanair flight times to/from LBA they were pants.

.. so the flight times from DSA would somehow be different?

 

[westv]

.. so the flight times from DSA would somehow be different?

Did I say that?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Did I say that?

Then why bother moving to DSA from LBA?

 

[pug1]

Did I say that?

No but you implied that. Much like it’s often implied that if only airlines would be ‘allowed’ to fly from DSA then we’d have flights to all corners of the world.

Ryanair fill their flights day in day out from LBA. They didn’t when they had a few routes out of DSA. In fact interestingly when they ran ALC from both HUY and DSA concurrently, the HUY load factors were stronger.

 

[westv]

Then why bother moving to DSA from LBA?

Obviously because the post I was replying to was about LBA.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

No but you implied that. Much like it’s often implied that if only airlines would be ‘allowed’ to fly from DSA then we’d have flights to all corners of the world.

Refer to my post above.

 

[pug1]

Obviously because the post I was replying to was about LBA.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==


Refer to my post above.

Well in that case what you said had no real relevance to the thread. They fly from LBA because they fill their flights from it. You said you don’t like the flight times with Ryanair at LBA - this in itself is a sweeping statement as they have flights going out to a wide range of destinations at all times of day. So unless you’re suggesting that the flight times would be somehow different from DSA, how is it relevant? Hence why it was interpreted that is what you were suggesting.

Anyway, there are rumours of another airline soon to announce a base at another Yorkshire airport. If this comes off, it might put any operator crazy enough to consider involving themselves in this venture to reconsider. As yet we don’t know who (if anyone) the Council are talking to. The FOBC was supposed to be submitted to SYMCA in September, the clock is ticking and by all accounts there are significant delays because the bidders ‘needed more time’. Make of that what you will.

 

[thejuggler]

Local news covering LBAs 5 year expansion plan. Terminal improvements (underway), 10 more stands for overnight parking, routes to US and Middle East, eminently possible with the new aircraft coming to the market. Not sure how DSA will counter the ambition.

 

[mpthomson]

Local news covering LBAs 5 year expansion plan. Terminal improvements (underway), 10 more stands for overnight parking, routes to US and Middle East, eminently possible with the new aircraft coming to the market. Not sure how DSA will counter the ambition.

DSA can't, and thats the problem, it has nothing to offer. 737 MAX is now routinely flying 3500 mile routes taking up to 8hrs, which means that the Middle East is easily in reach of LBA if an airline wanted to do it and 321NEOs are routinely flying transatlantic.

 

[Nym]

DSA can't, and thats the problem, it has nothing to offer. 737 MAX is now routinely flying 3500 mile routes taking up to 8hrs, which means that the Middle East is easily in reach of LBA if an airline wanted to do it and 321NEOs are routinely flying transatlantic.

757s have been doing trans Atlantic for years…
Delta have been flying MAN to ATL for at least 15 years.
New aircraft have nothing to do with these long thin routes being viable.

 

[cactustwirly]

Local news covering LBAs 5 year expansion plan. Terminal improvements (underway), 10 more stands for overnight parking, routes to US and Middle East, eminently possible with the new aircraft coming to the market. Not sure how DSA will counter the ambition.

Doesn't mean they are viable.
If anything the new aircraft will mean more LH routes from MAN

 

[pug1]

For what it’s worth I don’t believe long haul has any significant future from LBA, even less so from a reopened DSA. Where LBA may pick up is routes to the like of KEF and IST with Play and Turkish respectively. Play offer one stop connection to various destinations in North America and Turkish offer links on to Asia and beyond. I absolutely can see those coming to fruition in the next couple of years. Emirates, Qatar, United etc is just a pipe dream and even when they do attract such traffic, it rarely lasts longer than the next downturn. BHX for instance has lost all of its scheduled trans Atlantic destinations and only retains the token IT offering by TUI. There is no way Leeds will be able to compete with MAN on that, DSA with its sparse catchment area even less so!

What might work for LBA is successfully attracting Lufthansa once passenger numbers surpass 5mppa. LH do not tend to operate from airports with less than that figure. The critical mass is building, it may get a significant bump too if rumours are to be believed. TBC soon I understand.

This is relevant to DSA, because of its proximity to Leeds and the requirement to be able to pull in passengers from West Yorkshire, what happens at LBA has an absolute direct impact on DSA.

 

[mpthomson]

757s have been doing trans Atlantic for years…
Delta have been flying MAN to ATL for at least 15 years.
New aircraft have nothing to do with these long thin routes being viable.

Indeed, but rarely from LBA other than the slack handful of Jet2 Christmas NY flights that they did for a few years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2024 ==

For what it’s worth I don’t believe long haul has any significant future from LBA, even less so from a reopened DSA. Where LBA may pick up is routes to the like of KEF and IST with Play and Turkish respectively. Play offer one stop connection to various destinations in North America and Turkish offer links on to Asia and beyond. I absolutely can see those coming to fruition in the next couple of years. Emirates, Qatar, United etc is just a pipe dream and even when they do attract such traffic, it rarely lasts longer than the next downturn. BHX for instance has lost all of its scheduled trans Atlantic destinations and only retains the token IT offering by TUI. There is no way Leeds will be able to compete with MAN on that, DSA with its sparse catchment area even less so!

What might work for LBA is successfully attracting Lufthansa once passenger numbers surpass 5mppa. LH do not tend to operate from airports with less than that figure. The critical mass is building, it may get a significant bump too if rumours are to be believed. TBC soon I understand.

This is relevant to DSA, because of its proximity to Leeds and the requirement to be able to pull in passengers from West Yorkshire, what happens at LBA has an absolute direct impact on DSA.

Completely agree

 

[pug1]

Leeds Bradford Airport unveils major plan to mark 'new era of travel'

Leeds Bradford Airport (LBA) has unveiled an ambitious strategy to create thousands of new jobs and contribute up to nearly £1bn to the local…

www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk

As part of the Vision 2030 plans, LBA will be increasing terminal floorspace by 38 per cent, as well as making investments in the existing airfield to create up to 10 new aircraft stands for overnight LBA-based aircraft.

Again, directly relevant to DSA as this level of growth will have direct impact on potential of DSA. Buyer beware.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Leeds Bradford Airport unveils major plan to mark 'new era of travel'

Leeds Bradford Airport (LBA) has unveiled an ambitious strategy to create thousands of new jobs and contribute up to nearly £1bn to the local…

www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk

News released today regarding the private sector investment program to bring LBA up to standard and significantly increase capacity.

Again, directly relevant to DSA as this level of growth will have direct impact on potential of DSA. Buyer beware.

Issue is that LBA need West Yorks Combined Authority to get transport links up to standard, or sort out LBA Parkway station and a shuttle to the terminal themselves (let's remind ourselves that historically the pace of the development of West Yorks rapid transit schemes has been glacial), otherwise the A658 will turn into a car park.

 

[pug1]

Issue is that LBA need West Yorks Combined Authority to get transport links up to standard, or sort out LBA Parkway station and a shuttle to the terminal themselves (let's remind ourselves that historically the pace of the development of West Yorks rapid transit schemes has been glacial), otherwise the A658 will turn into a car park.

Think the Parkway Station is up for planning at the moment? However, whichever way you look at it the vast majority of journeys will still be made by road and I do think they should be doing whatever it is they can do to improve flow to the airport. My preference would be to somehow link it up with the outer ring road. I think this was proposed a few years ago but canned.

Connecting Leeds Bradford Airport: Link Route (road)

Please note that this engagement is closed. Much of the information on this page is now outdated but has been left available for public viewing as a record of the engagement process. For updates and outcomes please click on the link below: ______________________________

www.yourvoice.westyorks-ca.gov.uk

Building a new road and footway/cycleway from the A65, running along the eastern edge of the airport before joining the A658 to the north.

Still wouldn’t provide the crucial motorway access, but it would create a better flow away from pinch points. One thing DSA has is reasonably good road links, it’s just too far away from a lot of people that airlines don’t want to risk investing. DSA was often cited as the reason not to build the link road, because it was ‘more central’. Yet another case of the public sector tail trying to wag the dog.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Think the Parkway Station is up for planning at the moment? However, whichever way you look at it the vast majority of journeys will still be made by road and I do think they should be doing whatever it is they can do to improve flow to the airport. My preference would be to somehow link it up with the outer ring road. I think this was proposed a few years ago but canned.

Connecting Leeds Bradford Airport: Link Route (road)

Please note that this engagement is closed. Much of the information on this page is now outdated but has been left available for public viewing as a record of the engagement process. For updates and outcomes please click on the link below: ______________________________

www.yourvoice.westyorks-ca.gov.uk

Still wouldn’t provide the crucial motorway access, but it would create a better flow away from pinch points. One thing DSA has is reasonably good road links, it’s just too far away from a lot of people that airlines don’t want to risk investing. DSA was often cited as the reason not to build the link road, because it was ‘more central’. Yet another case of the public sector tail trying to wag the dog.

It is a reasonable plan to increase road links, but both that and the public transport links need to be in place before they start. I'm not convinced they have the capability to do that.

 

[pug1]

It is a reasonable plan to increase road links, but both that and the public transport links need to be in place before they start. I'm not convinced they have the capability to do that.

Not to the airport itself, just not feasible unfortunately. They do mention an H24 coach to the city centre but that’s not really going to cut it I don’t think. The best and most viable solution is the proposed parkway station down the hill with presumably a shuttle service. They could maybe have some long stay parking down there making the shuttle service viable as I can’t imagine many passengers would use it, but it would make it more attractive if there is a regular shuttle.

The road access is dreadful, but when people argue that DSA is better connected therefore should be the focal point is like trying to move the mountain to Mohammed. Maybe if you moved the WY conurbation south east that would solve the lack of passengers issue. Since there will be no new airport in West Yorkshire we have to make the best out of a less than ideal situation as that’s where the market has dictated growth should be. I think LBA is an awful place, but it is what it is.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Not to the airport itself, just not feasible unfortunately. They do mention an H24 coach to the city centre but that’s not really going to cut it I don’t think. The best and most viable solution is the proposed parkway station down the hill with presumably a shuttle service. They could maybe have some long stay parking down there making the shuttle service viable as I can’t imagine many passengers would use it, but it would make it more attractive if there is a regular shuttle.

The road access is dreadful, but when people argue that DSA is better connected therefore should be the focal point is like trying to move the mountain to Mohammed. Maybe if you moved the WY conurbation south east that would solve the lack of passengers issue. Since there will be no new airport in West Yorkshire we have to make the best out of a less than ideal situation as that’s where the market has dictated growth should be. I think LBA is an awful place, but it is what it is.

Maybe Humberside will get the growth instead - I know it's further from the population, but Ryanair could be tempted by fees and building a station on a line with intercity connections and close enough for a 5 min bus shuttle to the terminal could help the case.

DSA - we'll have to wait and see. I think it is unviable long-term as a purely passenger airport, but they may find something to make it work.

 

[Killingworth]

Maybe Humberside will get the growth instead - I know it's further from the population, but Ryanair could be tempted by fees and building a station on a line with intercity connections and close enough for a 5 min bus shuttle to the terminal could help the case.

DSA - we'll have to wait and see. I think it is unviable long-term as a purely passenger airport, but they may find something to make it work.

I have used Barnetby station several times and seen taxis connecting with Humberside Airport, about 3.5 miles. (Iv'e walked it.) Hourly TPE trains to Cleethorpes, Grimsby, Scunthorpe, Doncaster, Sheffield and Manchester. East Midlands to Nottingham and Leicester.

 

[pug1]

Maybe Humberside will get the growth instead - I know it's further from the population, but Ryanair could be tempted by fees and building a station on a line with intercity connections and close enough for a 5 min bus shuttle to the terminal could help the case.

DSA - we'll have to wait and see. I think it is unviable long-term as a purely passenger airport, but they may find something to make it work.

Unfortunately HUY is a bit stuck at the moment. The majority share holder is a US based helicopter operator with a turnover that makes HUY a rounding error. Apparently the U.K. director isn’t even based in the U.K.! And by all accounts North Lincolnshire Council (who own a minority share) aren’t all that interested in asking questions on the board. Also the MD isn’t a particularly well liked person. Since Covid they have just slashed costs to the point where ATC core hours are pretty much 9-5 with extended hours to allow for the KLM flights (currently operated by Eastern Airways) and therefore not much scope at the moment for any growth from TUI or indeed Ryanair.

The current airport management have clearly stated numerous times that low cost airlines aren’t something they’re interested in pursuing because they want a lot for nothing. It used to be the case that HUY could recoup costs from car parking revenue but it’s got more expensive to handle flights in the last 20 years, and there has been a significant decline in the number of IT Charter operators that used to be the bread and butter of HUY passenger ops.

I do know that has DSA not opened, Thomsonfly would have opened a base at HUY under MAG ownership. There were also other airlines interested that didn’t really materialise. Sadly DSA was opened instead and strangled the market. KLM could not be enticed away because I understand HUY served a vital function in the offshore, shipping and petro-chemical industry that provides KLM with a lot of high yielding regular custom. It’s also relatively remote so people will pay a premium to use a local airport.

 

[deltic]

A bidder for the airport has been found according to City of Doncaster website. Yet more public money being spent to allow the people of Yorkshire to boost the economies of Mediterranean countries!

Details of the bidder will remain confidential until further into the process as commercial negotiations are ongoing. Legal and contract confirmation stages are now underway and are expected to be completed before Christmas this year.

Getting the airport reopened and ready for business also requires financial support and next week, City of Doncaster Council is asking South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority for the immediate release of a £3m financial package to continue commercial negotiations and help prepare timely activity on site.