"Man entered train drivers cabin, switched off breaks and 'began moving controls'"

[OscarH]

ideally be "security keys" (e.g. Master Lock) to be hard to copy.

I hope you mean Master Lock in some other context than the company known for their joke quality

 

[357]

Just proper cab (“Kaba”) keys which are a lot more secure. T-key and Master keys are not secure at all considering how they are used so widely on the railway and how you could use common household items that could be used as a makeshift.

Can confirm that my thoughts would be Kaba keys per TOC or per class.

One traction I sign uses a T key, the other uses Kaba. Drivers have only been issued one and it's caused problems as most drivers carry a spare set of keys with them too.

Locksmiths have been unable to reproduce unofficial copies too.

 

[Horizon22]

Very much depends on location. If there’s a local instruction allowing you to leave the train unlocked and unattended, you absolutely will do so.

What I mean is the cab would be secured. It obviously sounds like this wasn't here, although we don't have the full facts and of course sometimes only a T-key is required (which is why perhaps a opportunist, maybe slightly drunk enthusiast was involved)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2024 ==

Electronic locks is a very bad idea.

Why? It could use your staff ID, as an example.

 

[75A]

How times change, Brighton in the early 80's, one of my very regular turns was the Eastbourne 'Paper's'. Signed on around 23:00 & worked the 23:18 vans to Victoria via Redhill.
This was always headed by a 73/1. In the Winter the first job on arrival - before signing on, was to go into the lead cab, prep it, leaving the master key in and both heaters on full.

 

[signed]

Why? It could use your staff ID, as an example.

That would be ideal, when it works. I am all in for the use of technology to be more flexible

The issue with that is that electronics break a lot more easily than a metal key. A metal key doesn't require any electricity or wiring.

If you are in the middle of nowhere with a loco that lost power (unlikely, but see my point), had to leave the cab for investigation through the door with no outside door handle (so you can't open it from the outside), unless you have a backup battery or a emergency key cylinder (which kida defeats the purpose of installing electronics in the 1st place if you need protection against lockout), you're simply stuck out.

That wouldn't happen with a key (discounting the unlikely event of a key cylinder seizing or a key breaking), and you would still be able to open the door in most conditions without needing electricity.

 

[CBlue]

If you look at the picture. I really doubt this is an enthusiast. Although you mustn't judge a book by its cover

Obviously not an enthusiast. Where's his anorak and flask of weak lemon drink?

 

[Horizon22]

That would be ideal, when it works. I am all in for the use of technology to be more flexible

The issue with that is that electronics break a lot more easily than a metal key. A metal key doesn't require any electricity or wiring.

If you are in the middle of nowhere with a loco that lost power (unlikely, but see my point), had to leave the cab for investigation through the door with no outside door handle (so you can't open it from the outside), unless you have a backup battery or a emergency key cylinder (which kida defeats the purpose of installing electronics in the 1st place if you need protection against lockout), you're simply stuck out.

That wouldn't happen with a key (discounting the unlikely event of a key cylinder seizing or a key breaking), and you would still be able to open the door in most conditions without needing electricity.

You've never heard of broken, lost or stiff keys then!

NFC technology and access control cards have been around for decades, your approach sounds a bit old-fashioned.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a short-term solution but you're finding a lot of flaws that won't be realistic problems.

 

[Ediswan]

Absolutely. Same with airplane cockpits after 9/11 where they are locked shut every time (that has caused GermanWings 9525 being such a disaster)

A different scenario. Airplane cockpits are locked from the inside, when occupied. As far as I am aware, no keys are involved.

 

[43066]

Sure, but that would be theft then, with the consequences that go with it. Especially if still in employment. A T-Key is easily reproducible, a security key isn't easily reproducible.

Hmm. I can see a few issues with it!

I’m more concerned about active driving cabs being secured - that could be achieved with something similar to what’s being introduced on LU. Essentially an entry system where the driver can prevent someone entering, but will allow entry if the driver is unresponsive.

In reality there won’t be the money for any of the above, of course, so we will simply carry on as we are!

 

[signed]

NFC technology and access control cards have been around for decades, your approach sounds a bit old-fashioned.

Granted, yes. But do you really want to depend on electricity for that?

 

[Dai Corner]

Granted, yes. But do you really want to depend on electricity for that?

Make it fail-safe, unlocking in the event of a loss of power. If there's no power our hypothetical intruder won't be able to get up to too much mischief.

 

[Railworker101]

There was a similar incident a few years ago in Nottingham, excuse the daily mail link, it's all I could find...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2756117/amp/The-11-40-Secret-Service-Nottingham-Passenger-train-hijacked-man-claiming-CIA.html

 

[JamesT]

Make it fail-safe, unlocking in the event of a loss of power. If there's no power our hypothetical intruder won't be able to get up to too much mischief.

The electronic locks I’m familiar with have a battery inside them and have terminals on the outside where you can feed power if the internal battery is flat. So it remains secure in a failure but there is a way in.

 

[Bill57p9]

A friend of mine knew someone who, having missed his last bus home, 'borrowed' one from another route and drove off, only to belly it on a hump-back bridge; he legged it and wasn't caught. This would have been sometime in the 1960s. To return to the original subject, have there been instances when an unauthorised person has driven off a train either from a station or a depot? If there were, what were the consequences?

Wasn't there someone a few years ago who went joyriding in an 08?

 

[43066]

There was a similar incident a few years ago in Nottingham, excuse the daily mail link, it's all I could find...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2756117/amp/The-11-40-Secret-Service-Nottingham-Passenger-train-hijacked-man-claiming-CIA.html

Even more insidious are enthusiasts who pretend to be staff members.

Recently on my patch there was a character who pretended to be a freight driver looking for a cab ride over part of the route. He was only caught when someone smelt a rat and asked for an ID. There was also a (rumoured) guy at my previous TOC who supposedly offered to take drivers off and drove the last part of their duty despite not being a driver at all. I’m not entirely sure I believe that one, mind!

 

[75A]

Wasn't there someone a few years ago who went joyriding in an 08?

Joyriding on a 350, more like torture, once a month we had a Sunday night turn with an 09.
Brighton to Newhaven, swap locos, Newhaven to Three Bridges, swap loco, Three Bridges to Brighton. Complete purgatory, especially heading down the Falmer bank towards Lewes, when the overspeed would trip @ 27mph and bring you to a halt.

 

[Dai Corner]

The electronic locks I’m familiar with have a battery inside them and have terminals on the outside where you can feed power if the internal battery is flat. So it remains secure in a failure but there is a way in.

Even better!

 

[Bill57p9]

Wasn't there someone a few years ago who went joyriding in an 08?

Found it: 2006 at Tinsley: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/5151370.stm

A 19-year-old train buff from Rawmarsh has been sentenced to 200 hours community service after going joyriding in a 49-tonne locomotive.
Daniel Matthews sneaked into sidings at Sheffield's Tinsley marshalling yard in May. He started the engine and drove it up and down for 40 minutes.

Rotherham Magistrates heard he was such an expert he knew how to change points so the train could switch tracks.

Matthews even left it switched off and safely parked before cycling away.

'Act of stupidity'

He was identified after police released CCTV footage of him and another man on BMX bikes in the area.

Inspector David Boldison of British Transport Police said it was an act of stupidity.

"Potentially it was very dangerous," he said.

"If he'd managed to get himself on to the main line, where there were passenger trains, then potentially that could have had bad consequences".

The article does not specify what he was actually charged with.

 

[Elwyn]

Found it: 2006 at Tinsley: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/5151370.stm


The article does not specify what he was actually charged with.

I have a vague recollection that he was charged with the theft of the diesel fuel he used. I don’t think he did any damage and they struggled to find an appropriate “taking and driving away” type of offence under railway legislation.

 

[signed]

I don’t think he did any damage and they struggled to find an appropriate “taking and driving away” type of offence under railway legislation.

Wouldn't that just be plain vehicular theft (or like Northern Americans like to call it, Operating without consent)?

Pilots that steal an aircraft have been charged with theft in the past, on top of operating without a license, though that was in the US

 

[Towers]

I have a vague recollection that he was charged with the theft of the diesel fuel he used. I don’t think he did any damage and they struggled to find an appropriate “taking and driving away” type of offence under railway legislation.

Plain old ‘endangering the safety…’ ought to have fitted the bill, surely?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2024 ==

A different scenario. Airplane cockpits are locked from the inside, when occupied. As far as I am aware, no keys are involved.

Not completely different, regardless the door still requires to be accessible from the outside only be a secure means. I believe they use a numeric keypad, which essentially serves the same purpose as a key?

 

[signed]

Pilots that steal an aircraft have been charged with theft in the past, on top of operating without a license, though that was in the US

Or even 83 counts of attempted murder

Off-duty pilot charged with 83 counts of attempted murder after trying to turn off plane’s engine mid-flight

Flight 2059 from Everett, Washington, was bound for San Francisco when it was diverted to Portland, where Joseph David Emerson was booked on 83 counts of attempted murder.

www.today.com

An off-duty Alaska Airlines pilot has been charged with over 80 counts of attempted murder after he allegedly attempted to shut off a plane’s engines midflight on Sunday, causing the flight to divert to Portland.

 

[Elwyn]

Wouldn't that just be plain vehicular theft (or like Northern Americans like to call it, Operating without consent)?

Pilots that steal an aircraft have been charged with theft in the past, on top of operating without a license, though that was in the US

Theft involves an intention to permanently deprive the owner of the item. Joyriders don’t usually intend to do that. They just drive about for a while and then abandon the vehicle. So theft doesn’t fit. Hence the separate “taking and driving away” offence instead which does cover it. The lad who drove the train without authority for a while surely had no intention of keeping it permanently either. So no theft of a train. But theft of diesel fuel, daft as it sounds, does fit.

But I am surprised there isn’t a more appropriate offence somewhere in the extensive legislation that covers railways.

 

[JamesT]

Theft involves an intention to permanently deprive the owner of the item. Joyriders don’t usually intend to do that. They just drive about for a while and then abandon the vehicle. So theft doesn’t fit. Hence the separate “taking and driving away” offence instead which does cover it. The lad who drove the train without authority for a while surely had no intention of keeping it permanently either. So no theft of a train. But theft of diesel fuel, daft as it sounds, does fit.

But I am surprised there isn’t a more appropriate offence somewhere in the extensive legislation that covers railways.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/12 is the section of the Theft Act which defines the offence of “Taking Without Owner’s Consent”.

(7)For purposes of this section—

(a)“conveyance” means any conveyance constructed or adapted for the carriage of a person or persons whether by land, water or air, except that it does not include a conveyance constructed or adapted for use only under the control of a person not carried in or on it, and “drive” shall be construed accordingly;

I think it could be argued that a locomotive does fit that definition, so they could have been charged with that offence. It’s certainly wider than just road-going motor vehicles.

 

[island]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/12 is the section of the Theft Act which defines the offence of “Taking Without Owner’s Consent”.

I think it could be argued that a locomotive does fit that definition, so they could have been charged with that offence. It’s certainly wider than just road-going motor vehicles.

Agreed.

Taking and driving away is the equivalent Scots law offence.

 

[aar0]

The electronic locks I’m familiar with have a battery inside them and have terminals on the outside where you can feed power if the internal battery is flat. So it remains secure in a failure but there is a way in.

My office (shared with 6) has this sort of lock. I’ve been in it since 2018 and we’ve had the battery run out once.

 

[Signal_Box]

Oh don't be ridiculous. There's a difference between going to the loo for five minutes and disappearing for long enough for someone to break in and starting meddling. Of course they're not expected to have no access to facilities, that's what breaks are for! For the record I'm a driver for a mainline company so I actual do know what I'm talking about.

He's not joking. It's certainly possible and very easy to do if you know how.

Some kids stole a 08 loco in Sheffield, drove it round a yard in the late 90s.

Moving a train isn’t rocket science, keeping it moving requires some knowledge which isn’t hard to come by.

You have to really want to steal the train and do some research prior as to what train to take and from where. You’re not going far if you just rock up and jump on the first 150 you see at your local station.

 

[43096]

Make it fail-safe, unlocking in the event of a loss of power. If there's no power our hypothetical intruder won't be able to get up to too much mischief.

Unit stabled away from depot, completely shut down. No power, so you're leaving the doors unlocked and train unattended in your scenario. Not very wise...

 

[GordonT]

On a similar theme of improper access to cabs, at one time there appeared to be a greater concern of management directed towards "unauthorised persons" travelling in cabs. This concern was partly down to instances of this sort coming to light in the wake of mishaps where possible distraction of the driver may have been a contributory factor. I wonder if this continues to be a concern?

 

[Towers]

On a similar theme of improper access to cabs, at one time there appeared to be a greater concern of management directed towards "unauthorised persons" travelling in cabs. This concern was partly down to instances of this sort coming to light in the wake of mishaps where possible distraction of the driver may have been a contributory factor. I wonder if this continues to be a concern?

It absolutely does, access to the cab from which a train is being driven is very tightly restricted at most if not all TOCs. Along with strict mobile phone policies etc etc.