December 2024 timetable change

[Scotrail88]

With this announcement, I thought timely to start this discussion

Is there any other TOCs announced intentions.

I would imagine only 5 weeks away before full release.

Four fast trains an hour between Leeds and Manchester will return

Rail operator scaled back its services due to the massive backlog of driver training it needed to tackle

www.examinerlive.co.uk

The boss of TransPennine Express has promised to restore its four fast trains an hour between Leeds and Manchester, a year after the service was scaled back to tackle its chronic reliability issues.

Services taken out of the state-run rail operator's timetable eight months ago are set to be reinstated this December, promises Managing Director Chris Jackson, after successful work to reduce its massive backlog of driver training.

 

[Stephen42]

The long distance east coast mainline operators LNER, Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo were published recently and are available on RealTimeTrains etc. No idea whether it's the final version and haven't looked to see if there are any notable differences to the current timetable.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Probably still no hourly Sunday service Northern Manchester to Stoke-on-Trent or Manchester to Chester via Altrincham.

Had I a pound for each thread in which I've written that so far, I could probably take a day's extra leave!

 

[Johnny Lewis]

The long distance east coast mainline operators LNER, Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo were published recently and are available on RealTimeTrains etc. No idea whether it's the final version and haven't looked to see if there are any notable differences to the current timetable.

The token LNER extensions to / from Glasgow Central, Stirling and Sunderland have, as predicted, disappeared - the trains still run between either Edinburgh or Newcastle and London. I haven't, as yet, spotted anything else.

 

[A S Leib]

The token LNER extensions to / from Glasgow Central, Stirling and Sunderland have, as predicted, disappeared - the trains still run between either Edinburgh or Newcastle and London. I haven't, as yet, spotted anything else.

- Including nothing showing up for Grimsby; a test train ran last June (2023), but I don't know if there's any updates since. No sign of Grand Central services at Seaham either.

- CrossCountry's in RTT as well. The only change I've noticed so far is the 06:03 Birmingham New Street to Bournemouth going.

- Nothing for Eurostar in RTT yet; is the target still January for restoring direct services from Amsterdam?

- Will the current placeholder paths (~xx:15 and xx:45 departures from Newcastle) be the same for Northumberland line services?

 

[OliverH68]

Looks like stuff is being progressively uploaded over the next few days. From what I can see, the following are available:

LNER, Hull Trains, Lumo, GC, XC, TPE, London Overground, Elizabeth Line & Caledonian Sleeper.

 

[louis97]

- CrossCountry's in RTT as well. The only change I've noticed so far is the 06:03 Birmingham New Street to Bournemouth going.

I would not read into anything this early, the empty at Bournemouth for that train has been uploaded, so likely the train has just not been published yet.

 

[Thomas6187]

Saltburn gone down the 3 TPE departures a day toward York and only 2 back

 

[htafc]

Saltburn gone down the 3 TPE departures a day toward York and only 2 back

Are the rest going to/from Middlesbrough?

 

[JonathanH]

Are the rest going to/from Middlesbrough?

Redcar.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...9/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TP

 

[Johnny Lewis]

So it looks as if they are saving a unit or two by only having quite short turnarounds at Redcar Central. Meanwhile, the York - Castleford - Wakefield Kirkgate - Huddersfield - Manchester Piccadilly service ramps up to hourly, and until quite late into the evening.

 

[Phillipimo]

For Transpennine Express it looks like the return of 4 fast tph between Manchester and Leeds all day:

Liverpool Lime Street to Hull
Manchester Victoria to Scarborough
Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle
Manchester Airport to Redcar Central via Ordsall chord. (Cut back from Saltburn).

1 stopping tp2h from Huddersfield to Leeds. (Hourly service jointly provided by Northern)
1 stopping tph from Manchester Piccadilly to York via Castleford. (Extension of Manchester - Huddersfield stopper)

I can't see any changes to Liverpool/Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh services.
South route remains hourly Liverpool to Cleethorpes.

 

[CptCharlee]

Was just about to say No sign of Cardiff to Edinburgh Crosscountry service. Until I saw it's due to start Dec 2025, not Dec 2024. Honestly, I thought was this timetable change.

 

[ainsworth74]

So it looks as if they are saving a unit or two by only having quite short turnarounds at Redcar Central.

Yes, not surprising really as they can save probably a pair of units and a driver/conductor from sitting around for 50 minutes at Saltburn. Ever since it proved impossible (to my understanding) to get union agreement to allow breaks to be taken at Saltburn using the cabin that TPE had built for the purpose it seemed a little bonkers for TPE to spend so long at Saltburn even though it was excellent from a service reliability point of view. Of course now that they've got what appears to be around nine or ten minute turnarounds at Redcar Central it'll be interesting to see what that does to reliability. The residents of Redcar will be pleased however as it will reduce the number of times the level crossing over West Dyke road has to close as TPE will neither be shunting into the sidings nor carrying onto Saltburn!

That being said, overall, I do think it's a shame to lose the service to Saltburn for TPE. Whilst it was never doing gangbusters numbers even the last TPE of the day would have a few people on-board. I suspect if the time could have been used productively (i.e. by the crew taking their break at Saltburn) it probably wouldn't be on the chopping block, but as is, it's hard to justify a unit and crew sat doing nowt for 50 odd minutes every hour. It also kills off my dream of Marske gaining an hourly TPE service

Though I wonder if there will be some finessing of Northern's Darlington to Saltburn service required? The TPEs generally are now scheduled to depart from platform 2 at xx58 whilst the Northern services are due to arrive at platform 2 at xx03 which shouldn't be impossible but might be quite tight as the protecting signal for platform 2 not far shy of a mile away (around .85 of a mile) and in my experience it is not unusual for the signal not to clear until a departing TPE has drawn level with the Northern waiting at that signal! I'm not sure a bang on xx58 departure allows enough time for Northern to then call at Redcar Central at xx03.

On the plus side at least the stupid decision to have one train per day divert and terminate at Darlington has been reversed. No longer will the 2039 from York go to Darlington and instead it'll go to Redcar like it always should have done, that was a very frustrating development considering I often use that train to get back from York Forum meals!

 

[hux385]

Looks like XC are starting and finishing all their Aberdeen services at Dundee with corresponding earlier workings to get the unit back to Craigentinny. However, Saturdays seem to stay as present.

Didn't realise this was due to happen but I'm not surprised given they really struggle to get traincrew at the moment.

Also the temporary timetable coming in for XC might become more permanent (my bets are that it will) so that might see Aberdeen scrapped all together?!

 

[dodecahedron67]

1 stopping tp2h from Huddersfield to Leeds. (Are Northern providing the other half of the services? Currently hourly)
1 stopping tph from Manchester Piccadilly to York via Castleford. (Extension of Manchester - Huddersfield stopper)

Northern are providing the other 1tp2h on the Leeds-Hudds stopper

 

[A S Leib]

Also the temporary timetable coming in for XC might become more permanent (my bets are that it will) so that might see Aberdeen scrapped all together?!

Dundee – Newcastle, Darlington, York and Leeds is ~17,000 journeys per year; for Aberdeen, ~38,000. Of course there's LNER and changing at Edinburgh as well, but I'd be surprised if Dundee stays if Aberdeen goes.

When were the Guildford, Bath (Newquay, Bristol – Cardiff, bihourly Glasgow?) XC services scrapped? I know it was post-lockdown, but I can't remember exactly when.

 

[moonarrow458]

Was just about to say No sign of Cardiff to Edinburgh Crosscountry service. Until I saw it's due to start Dec 2025, not Dec 2024. Honestly, I thought was this timetable change.

Having a look on RTT for January 2025 there does appear to be a direct Cardiff to Edinburgh service but the way RTT displays the data this does not show as a through service. From December the 0600 Nottingham to Cardiff (1G03) will only run Nottingham to Birmingham New Street. As part of this the 0945 Cardiff to Nottingham will no longer run to Nottingham

There will then be a new 0649 Derby to Cardiff service (1V03) booked as a voyager which then forms an 0945 Cardiff to Birmingham service instead, but this 0945 departure off Cardiff (1M63) is actually the through train to Edinburgh as this attaches at Birmingham New Street to 1S43 the 0628 from Penzance to Edinburgh arrivimg at 1708.

In reverse the 1307 XC from Edinburgh to Plymouth 1V64 will run as a double voyager set to Gloucester (arriving 1900) where it splits with one set continuing to Plymouth as normal whilst the other set forms 1B64 the 1912 Gloucester to Cardiff Central service arriving at 2007.
So there is a direct service from December, its just not advertised as such on RTT.

As a consequence of the above 1V14 the 1707 Nottingham to Cardiff will only run Nottingham to Gloucester with the 170 then running ECS to Tyseley Depot

Looks like XC are starting and finishing all their Aberdeen services at Dundee with corresponding earlier workings to get the unit back to Craigentinny. However, Saturdays seem to stay as present.

Didn't realise this was due to happen but I'm not surprised given they really struggle to get traincrew at the moment.

Also the temporary timetable coming in for XC might become more permanent (my bets are that it will) so that might see Aberdeen scrapped all together?!

The CrossCountry services to Aberdeen have not been scrapped. Monday to Fridays RTT is still showing 1V60 the 0820 Aberdeen to Penzance (britains longest train service) which is formed from 2A01 the 0642 from Dundee non-stop to Aberdeen which comes ECS from Edinburgh.

Then on Monday to Thursdays the 0927 from Plymouth (1S45) terminates at Dundee at 1941 before running back to Edinburgh in service as 1B62 at 1952 calling only at Haymarket and Edinburgh.

But on Fridays the 0927 from Plymouth (1S45) runs through to Aberdeen arriving at 2041 where it forms the 2135 Aberdeen to Edinburgh (1B61).

Saturdays there is no morning service from Aberdeen instead starting at Dundee at 0933 as 1V60 to Penzance with the stock coming ECS from Edinburgh. But on Saturday evening there is still a SW England to Aberdeen (1S45) and corresponding Aberdeen to Edinburgh (1B61) service.

Sundays no CrossCountry services to or from Aberdeen instead a 1222 Dundee to Plymouth service (1V66) with the stock coming ECS from Edinburgh, and in the evening 1S45 terminates at Dundee forming the 1951 Dundee to Edinburgh (1B61).

Dundee – Newcastle, Darlington, York and Leeds is ~17,000 journeys per year; for Aberdeen, ~38,000. Of course there's LNER and changing at Edinburgh as well, but I'd be surprised if Dundee stays if Aberdeen goes.

When were the Guildford, Bath (Newquay, Bristol – Cardiff, bihourly Glasgow?) XC services scrapped? I know it was post-lockdown, but I can't remember exactly when.

There is still a Bristol to Cardiff CrossCountry service each weekday 1P00 at 0520 from Bristol Temple Meads to Cardiff C calling at Bristol Parkway and Newport. This is to form the first Cardiff to Nottingham at 0640 as the stock stables at Bristol Barton Hill. On Saturdays the train runs ECS from Barton Hill in the morning.

But from December XC will actually be enhancing their very limited Bristol to Cardiff offering. It appears they will no longer stable at Cardiff Canton depot on Saturday nights so instead the last 2 arrivals from Nottingham will go to Barton Hill. One of the those will run in passenger service as 1C35 at 2135 from Cardiff C to Bristol Temple Meads calling at Newport. The other one runs ECS.

And on Sunday morning the first two Cardiff to Nottingham departures will form from stock off Bristol so there will be a new service at 1022 from Bristol Temple Meads to Cardiff (1B64) calling at Newport. The other service runs ECS from Bristol.

 

[swt_passenger]

When were the Guildford, Bath (Newquay, Bristol – Cardiff, bihourly Glasgow?) XC services scrapped? I know it was post-lockdown, but I can't remember exactly when.

Guildford and Bath services were already absent in the May 2023 timetable, it was discussed in the general timetable thread at that time. I don’t remember any sort of formal announcement though.

The Guildford to Reading paths were converted to ECS, and they still run empty from Eastleigh to Reading MWFO via Fareham, Havant and Guildford, presumably for driver knowledge for diversions; morning northbound trains are still in the Dec 24 timetable, but there are no southbound equivalents AFAICS.

 

[marsker]

Redcar.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...9/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TP

Some residents in Saltburn have been giving TPE earache about noise from the trains, which may have a bearing on this. Sad if this is the cause.
What's the betting that trains get turned back at Middlesbrough if there's the slightest bit of late running.

 

[Shaun_92]

For Transpennine Express it looks like the return of 4 fast tph between Manchester and Leeds all day:

Liverpool Lime Street to Hull
Manchester Victoria to Scarborough
Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle
Manchester Airport to Redcar Central via Ordsall chord. (Cut back from Saltburn).

1 stopping tp2h from Huddersfield to Leeds. (Hourly service jointly provided by Northern)
1 stopping tph from Manchester Piccadilly to York via Castleford. (Extension of Manchester - Huddersfield stopper)

I can't see any changes to Liverpool/Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh services.
South route remains hourly Liverpool to Cleethorpes.

The South route was supposed to be calling additional at Althorpe, Crowle & Thorne South every other hour, but this does not seem to happening (only trains that are calling are the ones that currently call at these station - 1B65 & 1B94)

 

[OliverH68]

SWR, SE, TfW & Eurostar are all available.

 

[A S Leib]

SWR, SE, TfW & Eurostar are all available.

No Amsterdam departures showing for Eurostar, even going into February; only 11:15, 16:15 and 23:15 arrivals.

 

[Scotrail88]

Does anyone know if and when the timetable comparison link will become live (https://live-departures.info/rail/timetable-comparison/) was old link

 

[animationmilo]

SWR, SE, TfW & Eurostar are all available.

Where do you find it please

 

[CapabilityB]

Some residents in Saltburn have been giving TPE earache about noise from the trains, which may have a bearing on this. Sad if this is the cause.
What's the betting that trains get turned back at Middlesbrough if there's the slightest bit of late running.

All of them stopping at Eaglescliffe now too which is new

 

[A S Leib]

Where do you find it please

realtimetrains.co.uk, amongst other places.

 

[nw1]

Yes, not surprising really as they can save probably a pair of units and a driver/conductor from sitting around for 50 minutes at Saltburn. Ever since it proved impossible (to my understanding) to get union agreement to allow breaks to be taken at Saltburn using the cabin that TPE had built for the purpose it seemed a little bonkers for TPE to spend so long at Saltburn even though it was excellent from a service reliability point of view. Of course now that they've got what appears to be around nine or ten minute turnarounds at Redcar Central it'll be interesting to see what that does to reliability. The residents of Redcar will be pleased however as it will reduce the number of times the level crossing over West Dyke road has to close as TPE will neither be shunting into the sidings nor carrying onto Saltburn!

Nine or ten minutes does seem incredibly tight for a middle-distance regional express type service such as this one!
I'd have expected at least 20 mins, ideally around 30 (more if necessary) for that kind of service.

 

[Galaxy]

The South route was supposed to be calling additional at Althorpe, Crowle & Thorne South every other hour, but this does not seem to happening (only trains that are calling are the ones that currently call at these station - 1B65 & 1B94)

Northern stopper continues.

 

[Starmill]

Having a look on RTT for January 2025 there does appear to be a direct Cardiff to Edinburgh service but the way RTT displays the data this does not show as a through service. From December the 0600 Nottingham to Cardiff (1G03) will only run Nottingham to Birmingham New Street. As part of this the 0945 Cardiff to Nottingham will no longer run to Nottingham

There will then be a new 0649 Derby to Cardiff service (1V03) booked as a voyager which then forms an 0945 Cardiff to Birmingham service instead, but this 0945 departure off Cardiff (1M63) is actually the through train to Edinburgh as this attaches at Birmingham New Street to 1S43 the 0628 from Penzance to Edinburgh arrivimg at 1708.

In reverse the 1307 XC from Edinburgh to Plymouth 1V64 will run as a double voyager set to Gloucester (arriving 1900) where it splits with one set continuing to Plymouth as normal whilst the other set forms 1B64 the 1912 Gloucester to Cardiff Central service arriving at 2007.
So there is a direct service from December, its just not advertised as such on RTT.

As a consequence of the above 1V14 the 1707 Nottingham to Cardiff will only run Nottingham to Gloucester with the 170 then running ECS to Tyseley Depot

The CrossCountry services to Aberdeen have not been scrapped. Monday to Fridays RTT is still showing 1V60 the 0820 Aberdeen to Penzance (britains longest train service) which is formed from 2A01 the 0642 from Dundee non-stop to Aberdeen which comes ECS from Edinburgh.

Then on Monday to Thursdays the 0927 from Plymouth (1S45) terminates at Dundee at 1941 before running back to Edinburgh in service as 1B62 at 1952 calling only at Haymarket and Edinburgh.

But on Fridays the 0927 from Plymouth (1S45) runs through to Aberdeen arriving at 2041 where it forms the 2135 Aberdeen to Edinburgh (1B61).

Saturdays there is no morning service from Aberdeen instead starting at Dundee at 0933 as 1V60 to Penzance with the stock coming ECS from Edinburgh. But on Saturday evening there is still a SW England to Aberdeen (1S45) and corresponding Aberdeen to Edinburgh (1B61) service.

Sundays no CrossCountry services to or from Aberdeen instead a 1222 Dundee to Plymouth service (1V66) with the stock coming ECS from Edinburgh, and in the evening 1S45 terminates at Dundee forming the 1951 Dundee to Edinburgh (1B61).

There is still a Bristol to Cardiff CrossCountry service each weekday 1P00 at 0520 from Bristol Temple Meads to Cardiff C calling at Bristol Parkway and Newport. This is to form the first Cardiff to Nottingham at 0640 as the stock stables at Bristol Barton Hill. On Saturdays the train runs ECS from Barton Hill in the morning.

But from December XC will actually be enhancing their very limited Bristol to Cardiff offering. It appears they will no longer stable at Cardiff Canton depot on Saturday nights so instead the last 2 arrivals from Nottingham will go to Barton Hill. One of the those will run in passenger service as 1C35 at 2135 from Cardiff C to Bristol Temple Meads calling at Newport. The other one runs ECS.

And on Sunday morning the first two Cardiff to Nottingham departures will form from stock off Bristol so there will be a new service at 1022 from Bristol Temple Meads to Cardiff (1B64) calling at Newport. The other service runs ECS from Bristol.

Not exactly ideal for anyone travelling from Worcestershire Parkway to Newport or Cardiff Central of course. But let's just hope there isn't anyone who actually wants to use the new station at that time.