Far-right protests

[Gloster]

I am of the option that a lot of what Farage has been saying recently is aimed at his fans in the USA. More popularity, more grift.

 

[Bluejays]

I am of the option that a lot of what Farage has been saying recently is aimed at his fans in the USA. More popularity, more grift.

Surely you're not suggesting that the honourable Mr Farage is more motivated by fame and money than helping the regular working people of Britain that he cares so deeply and passionately about. Shocking



*I think there's a very strong possibility that you are 100% correct

 

[RT4038]

Surely you're not suggesting that the honourable Mr Farage is more motivated by fame and money than helping the regular working people of Britain that he cares so deeply and passionately about. Shocking



*I think there's a very strong possibility that you are 100% correct

He wouldn't be the first politician with at least some of that motivation, and surely not the last either.

 

[nw1]

Sure, but it's important to keep the context and numbers in mind. Illegal immigration garners headlines and is often used to whip-up fear and hate (see, er, the last week and the initial spark for the violence) but in reality even if Starmer finally found that famous magic wand and waved it to bring an end to all irregular migration so the only people coming to the UK either had visas issued by the Home Office or were not required to have a visa (such as an Canadian citizen) the numbers would still, I suspect, be rather higher than most would expect and like.

For the year ending in December 2023 net migration to the UK was 685,000. Irregular arrivals (majority of which are small boats) for the year ending December 2023 were 36,700 (with the caveat that not all of this has been detected of course by virtue of it being, well, irregular!). So if you stopped all of the irregular immigration to the UK for 2023 the net migration figure would be, er, 648,000. Does anyone think that's really a significant reduction that's likely to placate anyone?

The reality is as I laid out some posts ago. It has been convenient for the Tories and various other right wingers to use high levels of migration which they link to irregular migration to whip up fear and hatred which they then use to paint themselves as being the people who will "take back control of our borders". But they then fail miserably because the high levels of net migration isn't due irregular migration it's the people that they allow into the country legally. But if you stop them then you end up with painful policy choices to make having promised the electorate that you will fix their problems with immigration pain free. So then you double down on the irregular migration and, because you're fundamentally incompetent, also manage to utterly break the asylum system in the process causing tens of thousands to be stuck in limbo who then all require housing and support at great expense. Further angering the people who you promised you would take control of our borders. It's proper "don't look behind the curtain!" level politics to pretend that irregular migration in the cause of all our ills and if we could only get it under control immigration would be resolved.

To add to that I'd also like to see more of a balanced approach and recognition of the plus points of immigration, some of which you mentioned yesterday in another post, including providing a workforce for health and social care, providing a healthy-sized workforce in general, and supporting the HE sector and in turn supporting the economies of many of our small and medium-sized cities. In addition, more controversially, some of us believe in relatively easy immigration on libertarian grounds.

Immigration isn't fundamentally "bad" any more than it's fundamentally "good". It's a divisive issue, some of us think it's good on balance, others think it's bad. But from the rhetoric in recent years, both from politicians and from the media, online and traditional, the impression given is that it's wholly bad. The good points, while oft-mentioned in the more tolerant times of the 90s and 00s, have been barely mentioned of late.

 

[ainsworth74]

Now I think a lot of people did actually have those same questions. How the police could so quickly rule out terrorism in cases where people travelled a distance in order to stab a soldier in uniform or young girls.

I think there is a confusion between a generic "terrorist" act and the specific criminal act of terrorism. That definition is given by the Terrorism Act 2000 where Section 1(1) provides:

(1) In this Act “terrorism” means the use or threat of action where—

(a) the action falls within subsection (2),

(b) the use or threat is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public or a section of the public, and

(c) the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.

Subsection (2) is:

(2) Action falls within this subsection if it—

(a) involves serious violence against a person,

(b) involves serious damage to property,

(c) endangers a person’s life, other than that of the person committing the action,

(d) creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public, or

(e) is designed seriously to interfere with or seriously to disrupt an electronic system.

There is a further modification whereby if you use or threaten any of the above whilst using firearms or explosives its terrorism whether or not (1)(b) is satisfied.

So clearly things like the attack on the soldier in Kent or the attack on the girls in Southport obviously meet the requirement of part (a) of the three part test provided in Section 1(1) as to whether it's terrorism but I suspect both then run into difficulty with parts (b) and (c). I suspect that the problem the police have is that both attacks were likely carried out by mentally ill people who got it into their head that their eventual victims were somehow an enemy that had to be destroyed but they weren't acting out of a sense to influence the Government or intimidate the public (though obviously the public would be intimidated but that wasn't the motivation) they also weren't trying to advance any particularly cause other than whatever twisted logic was operating in their own head.

We don't know this for certain of course. But that would be my guess as to why the police have said it isn't terrorism. Which feels unsatisfactory considering the nature of the crimes committed and the people who were targeted but I can well believe that the statutory definition, which is what the police have to use, hasn't been met.

Also worth noting that neither case really involved considerable travel. The attack in Kent was carried out by someone who lived in Rochester and the barracks was in Chatham (next door), whilst the Southport offender lived in a village next to Southport.

 

[Tester]

Thanks for that. I admit I made a mistake re the LDs, but stand by my comment (and already provided a newspaper article) re the second.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==



I don't want to go OT but given you commented, Australia is one of the most tolerant societies on earth. You may have been reading 'The Guardian' too much, or the woke BBC.

Migrating to Oz is very popular.

We have a much higher percentage of people born overseas than most if not all Western democracies.

Have you been to Oz?

You certainly did make a mistake re the LDs, but it is noted that you didn't acknowledge that at the time, despite invitation.

However if you are standing by Kamala Harris as a communist (and indeed have found someone else to agree with you), your credibility remains on the low side.

Whilst I am not the poster your remaining comments were directed to, I can sadly agree that Australia does indeed have a significant racism problem, which tends not to be openly acknowledged.

Rather ironic considering Australia's history. In summary.....

First Australians - bad people
Second Australians - good people
Third Australians - bad people

Strangely it is consistently Second Australians who tell me this

And yes, I have lived and worked in Australia, on and off, from 1987 to 2012, and visited regularly since, and (for my sins) follow Australian politics.

However I do agree with you that this risks drifting OT. The point as always is that things are not as clear cut as you suggest.

 

[D1537]

There is also the Terrorism Act 2006 s2 which states

A person commits an offence if—
(a) he publishes a statement to which this section applies or causes another to publish such a statement; and
(b) at the time he publishes it or causes it to be published, he—

• intends members of the public to be directly or indirectly encouraged or otherwise induced by the statement to commit, prepare or instigate acts of terrorism; or
• is reckless as to whether members of the public will be directly or indirectly encouraged or otherwise induced by the statement to commit, prepare or instigate such offences.

Given that 1c of the 2000 Act states "...the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause." you can see how anyone suggesting online that, for example, someone should burn down an hotel full of asylum seekers would be very close to this definition.

 

[nw1]

Apart from your last sentence that's hard to assess as I am from overseas, you are completely on the ball.

One survey I recall reading (but cannot now find) found that about half of all individuals from a particular background supported terrorism.

Which background is that, I wonder: supporters of Stephen Yaxley-Lennon a.k.a "Tommy Robinson"?

The real danger in Western societies is the extremist Left: communists and the more radical socialists, who seek to destroy society from within.

Dystopian.

Can you expand on that argument by describing instances in which the far-left have caused widespread and severe disorder of late, and showing that these have been greater in severity and/or number than equivalent far-right protests?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

Meanwhile, Lee Anderson doesn't want any of the protestors being jailed because it was mostly a bunch of lads who had one too many and didn't do anything too bad - heck, he claims we all did similar when we were young. Funny how he wanted Just Stop Oil protestors jailed for ten years and fined £10k each. He thinks we just need to sit down and talk to them to hear their concerns.

The same Lee Anderson who, in an unrelated incident, wishes to give a medal to a police officer stamping on a man's head?

Lee Anderson: I’d give medal to police officer filmed stamping on man’s head

The Reform UK MP issues robust response to widely shared video that shows firearms team tackling man in Manchester Airport

www.telegraph.co.uk

Lee Anderson has said an armed officer who was filmed appearing to kick and stamp on a man’s head at Manchester Airport should be given a medal.

Greater Manchester Police confirmed that an officer had been suspended from all duties after the incident on Wednesday, footage of which was widely shared online.


The Reform UK MP for Ashfield said that the officers involved in the incident “should be commended”.

He told BBC Politics Live: “The message I’m getting loud and clear from my constituents is that they’re fed up with seeing police dancing around rainbows and being nice to people and running off from rioters.

Oh, the irony. Rioters are OK, as long as they are from the hard-right or far-right, it seems.

It just lends more weight to my opinion that Anderson is nothing more than a hard-right waste of space.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

Reading newspapers is for boomers.

Is this a wind-up in the same way that @railfan99 appears to be maybe winding people up? I hope so!

 

[najaB]

I notice a load of “protesters” were eventually moved on yesterday after blocking a road in Portsmouth.

If they moved on when told to then no, it's not even remotely comparable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

Apart from your last sentence that's hard to assess as I am from overseas, you are completely on the ball.

One survey I recall reading (but cannot now find) found that about half of all individuals from a particular background supported terrorism.

One can't support violence on the streets but unfortunately in the main Westminster-based English speaking Western democracies, there's been excessive emigration of people who completely lack Judaeo-Christian values.

The real danger in Western societies is the extremist Left: communists and the more radical socialists, who seek to destroy society from within.

Dystopian.

I support your right to be as completely wrong as you are.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Appreciated, but the illegal immigration is the most visible, talked about bit isn't it.

Bit in bold - is it? Perhaps if you walk around wearing blinkers and spend all your time at home watching GB News or similar. I'd argue that the most visible immigration is people who have arrived and settled here legally and form part of everyday society. It's probably most talked about by those who are unable to differentiate between legal immigrants, illegal immigrants and asylum seekers (or indeed that all of the above terms can also apply to people of all races, skin colours and religions).

 

[DarloRich]

2 more sentenced to 32 months for violent disorder in Southport

John O'Malley, 43, is jailed for 32 months for violent disorder over the riot outside a Southport mosque on 30 July - the day after the stabbing.

The judge says O'Malley was at the front of "what was essentially a baying mob" throwing bricks and wheelie bins.

"You were at the front and participating enthusiastically."

The second to be sentenced is 69-year-old William Nelson Morgan, of Linton Street, Walton.

He was convicted on Monday of violent disorder and possessing of a wooden baton as an offensive weapon as a mob rampaged through Liverpool on Saturday. He has no previous convictions.

Nelson Morgan joined a 100-strong mob that attacked police and property in Walton. During this incident, the Spellow Lane Library was destroyed.

Chris Taylor, prosecuting, says that when officers saw Nelson Morgan holding a cosh, they advanced – but he resisted arrest.

Three officers had to use their combined strength to wrestle him to the ground.

"I’m English, I’m English, leave me alone," Nelson Morgan can be heard shouting on police video.

"Why are you here?" asks an officer. "Because I live here," he replies.

After his arrest, Nelson Morgan said the cosh had been for his own protection, stressing that he was almost 70-years-old and what else would they have expected him to do.

Paul Lewis, speaking for both defendants [Nelson Morgan and O’Malley], tells the court that after a period of reflection they had realised that there was no grievance that can be righted by mob rule.

Nelson Morgan, looks down as his lawyer tells the court that he is a widower and retired welder.

“He has no experience of the custodial sentence that will follow. He accepts that he acted in drink and was disinhibited by the presence of a large crowd.”

Lewis says O’Malley has no record of public disorder criminality.

“Both defendants are aware that they will receive sentences that are intended to provide punishment to them and act as a deterrence.

“Both men want to profoundly apologise not only to the families of those killed in Southport but also to the police... and to the public.”

Stay on high alert, Starmer tells emergency meeting on riots

Sir Keir Starmer is understood to have told Cobra that there is "no doubt" rapid sentencing has acted as a deterrent to further disorder.

www.bbc.co.uk

idiotic. 2+ years in jail and for what? It is good that cameras have been allowed into court to record all of this. Those involved clearly thought they would get away with such behaviour.

FAFO.

 

[nlogax]

Interesting to watch live coverage of the sentencing. Not sure how much of a deterrent it'll be for similar events in the future but fingers crossed it has at least some effect.

 

[DarloRich]

Interesting to watch live coverage of the sentencing. Not sure how much of a deterrent it'll be for similar events in the future but fingers crossed it has at least some effect.

justice must be seen to be done and all that!

 

[Howardh]

Brighton has ended up with a huge street party of locals to protect their city, and a tiny group of far right protestors that I'm assuming gave and went home.

Think there were 5 *protesters*, saw a snap of one who appeared to wear Geri Halliwell's dress. Note to him, that dress is mine and I own the rights (and probably have better legs...).

Did the Drag Queens show up to meet the *protesters* at the station?? Ah, Brighton


Interesting that the police "surrounded" the protesters and led them to a police van for their own safety no doubt - but even surrounded by 100's of anti-protesters I doubt they would have been physically harmed, but I wonder if the riots had "kicked-off" whether those five protesters would have attacked the very same police that protected them?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I don't want to go OT but given you commented, Australia is one of the most tolerant societies on earth. You may have been reading 'The Guardian' too much, or the woke BBC.

Migrating to Oz is very popular.

We have a much higher percentage of people born overseas than most if not all Western democracies.

Have you been to Oz?

I have family in Australia and have visited a number of times. Over the years I have been asked many times if I was interested in emigrating there (though by now I am too old to qualify for a suitable visa!). My answer to that is Absolutely No Chance.

Australian society is riddled with a strong undercurrent of racism (not to mention misogyny) despite a more recent policy of encouraging immigration from the Pacific Rim rather than Europe. Living there would make me feel embarrassed to be a fellow citizen with far too many backward looking people, far more so than here in the UK. The comment upthread about First, Second and Third Australians is all too true.

As for foreign born residents Australia's numbers are very similar to Switzerland's. And plenty of Swiss immigrants have come from different backgrounds and cultures. Yet it is a country where national harmony is more evident than in most democracies. Perhaps being a Confederation of Cantons encompassing multiple languages is actually an advantage.

 

[nw1]

Think there were 5 *protesters*, saw a snap of one who appeared to wear Geri Halliwell's dress.

Reminds me a bit of Farage calling his MPs the "new kids on the block". Five MPs, five-piece boy band.

You can almost imagine Farage, Anderson, Tice and the "other two" doing a cover of "Hangin' Tough".
Another one for the "Now That's What I Call Right Wing" compilation album.

 

[Cross City]

Another one for the "Now That's What I Call Right Wing" compilation album.

Featuring such hits as "Yes Sir, I Can Firebomb An Asylum Hotel", "I Will Always Hate You" and who could forget " We Will Deport You", and the all time classic "Men Just Want To Loot Greggs"!

 

[Howardh]

Featuring such hits as "Yes Sir, I Can Firebomb An Asylum Hotel", "I Will Always Hate You" and who could forget " We Will Deport You", and the all time classic "Men Just Want To Loot Greggs"!

Great Wheelie Bins Of Fire?

 

[DarloRich]

this shows some of the problems:

Heavy police presence in Barnsley as two opposing demonstrations stand off

There is a heavy police presence with more than half a dozen police vans. The number of officers almost outnumbering the demonstrators.


We spoke to some of those who had come to protest against immigration. They insisted they weren’t racist or far right.

“I’m just right about it,” said one woman on her views that there shouldn’t be any more immigration.

They spoke of the pressure of immigration on housing and GPs, saying politicians had to stop the boats.

Debbie spoke about relatives who came from India and her mixed-race extended family but insisted she would continue to speak out on immigration. “This island is sinking,” she says.

She condemned the violence at the protests but claimed she had seen police brutality towards those demonstrating on her side at the weekend.

This shows how effective the narrative pumped out by Farage (and his ilk) along with the Daily Mail and right wing "influencers" has been. People think they know what is happening because elite people tell them it is so. They are unable to grade and sort information to recognise reality.

Stay on high alert, Starmer tells emergency meeting on riots

Sir Keir Starmer is understood to have told Cobra that there is "no doubt" rapid sentencing has acted as a deterrent to further disorder.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

Great Wheelie Bins Of Fire?

Another Brick in the Balls?

 

[Vinnym]

They know the reason: the people convicted this week have pleaded guilty and been dealt with at the magistrates. Murder is a Crown Court trial

They may have pleaded guilty at the Magistrates court but they will then have been sent to the Crown Court for sentence. Magistrates can only impose short sentences And if they deem their powers to be insufficient, sentencing will be referred to Crown Court

 

[Howardh]

That Labour Councillor has been suspended from the party and is of police interest it seems, which is absolutely the correct thing to do.

Suspended Labour councillor arrested after video emerges urging crowd to cut throats

Party says speech in Walthamstow ‘completely unacceptable’ as a man in his 50s is arrested for incitement

www.independent.co.uk

Labour has suspended a councillor over a speech at a counter demonstration calling for the throats of anti-immigration protesters to be cut.

Dartford councillor Ricky Jones has been suspended by the party over the video, which shows him in the middle of a cheering crowd at a protest in Walthamstow, east London, organised to stop the far-right from targeting asylum centres and the offices of lawyers helping asylum seekers.


In the speech on Wednesday evening, he said: “We need to cut all their throats and get rid of them.”

 

[ainsworth74]

More sentences coming down now, this time on Teesside for the disorder in Hartlepool:

A couple have become the first to be jailed on Teesside for their part in riots.

Former postmaster and school governor Steven Mailen, 54, and his partner Ryan Sheers, 29, were captured dancing and gesticulating at a line of police officers on Murray Street in Hartlepool as the crowd behind them roared on the evening of July 31. Mailen shouted abuse at an officer, who repeatedly warned him to "get back."



Mailen refused, and was hit by a police baton on his leg. His partner, Sheers, shouted abuse as he tried to push through the line of five police officers. He was bitten on the hip and the right buttock by a police dog, which prompted the crowd to disperse.

Mailen tried to free his partner from the dog, and he grabbed a police officer's radio, which had fallen to the ground. A scuffle broke out as it took three police officers to arrest Mailen and get him into a police van.

On Thursday, he wept in the dock at Teesside Crown Court as the judge was told that the couple had spent the day "at the bingo" and that they had happened upon the riot by chance when they went out later in the evening to buy alcohol.

[...]

The defence barrister handed the judge a letter written by a neighbour who has recently come to live in the UK. The neighbour said that both Mailen and Sheers had been warm and welcoming.

But Judge Francis Laird said that their "disgraceful behaviour" could only mean a custodial sentence.

Steven Mailen, PC Morrison arrived to see a disturbance underway. He described you Mailen, as one of the main instigators of the violence. You, along with your partner Sheers were at the forefront of the mob. You taunted police officers, clearly intended to encourage others to use violence towards the police."

He added: "Ryan Sheers you too were involved in that disorder. PC Whitehouse, who wasn’t dressed in protected equipment, was shielded behind other officers to protect himself from injury. He knew the crowd was hostile. Bottles, bricks and beer cans were thrown.

“You were trying to push past the cordon of police officers. You were told to move back but you did not. You were gesticulating and taunting the police. A police dog bit you to the hip and buttock area - which caused the crowd to disperse and permitted the police to arrest you.

"Your behaviour was truly disgraceful."

Both men were jailed for 26 months.

Couple at 'forefront of mob' first to be jailed on Teesside for part in riots

Steven Mailen kicked a police officer while his partner, Ryan Sheers, refused to move back and was bitten by a police dog

www.gazettelive.co.uk

Both jailed for 26 months, probably released on licence after 13 months. So a year and a month in prison for what? Absolutely nothing. Must be feeling absolutely wretched right now for that stupidity last week. But play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

[Howardh]

More sentences coming down now, this time on Teesside for the disorder in Hartlepool:

Couple at 'forefront of mob' first to be jailed on Teesside for part in riots

Steven Mailen kicked a police officer while his partner, Ryan Sheers, refused to move back and was bitten by a police dog

www.gazettelive.co.uk

Both jailed for 26 months, probably released on licence after 13 months. So a year and a month in prison for what? Absolutely nothing. Must be feeling absolutely wretched right now for that stupidity last week. But play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

If they had spent the day "at the bingo" I assume they will now feel at home in a "full house"?

 

[AlterEgo]

Like I said, that hundreds of the worst idiots are going to be in jail and the fact the football starts this weekend means that's the end if that for now.

Come back in 5-10 years and maybe it'll start again, but as with 2011, all it is really is just flypaper for idiots to do things which end up in them being removed from society for a length of time.

 

[Bluejays]

I think there is a confusion between a generic "terrorist" act and the specific criminal act of terrorism. That definition is given by the Terrorism Act 2000 where Section 1(1) provides:



Subsection (2) is:



There is a further modification whereby if you use or threaten any of the above whilst using firearms or explosives its terrorism whether or not (1)(b) is satisfied.

So clearly things like the attack on the soldier in Kent or the attack on the girls in Southport obviously meet the requirement of part (a) of the three part test provided in Section 1(1) as to whether it's terrorism but I suspect both then run into difficulty with parts (b) and (c). I suspect that the problem the police have is that both attacks were likely carried out by mentally ill people who got it into their head that their eventual victims were somehow an enemy that had to be destroyed but they weren't acting out of a sense to influence the Government or intimidate the public (though obviously the public would be intimidated but that wasn't the motivation) they also weren't trying to advance any particularly cause other than whatever twisted logic was operating in their own head.

We don't know this for certain of course. But that would be my guess as to why the police have said it isn't terrorism. Which feels unsatisfactory considering the nature of the crimes committed and the people who were targeted but I can well believe that the statutory definition, which is what the police have to use, hasn't been met.

Also worth noting that neither case really involved considerable travel. The attack in Kent was carried out by someone who lived in Rochester and the barracks was in Chatham (next door), whilst the Southport offender lived in a village next to Southport.

Just saw this. Very interesting, I hadn't realised both lived so close to the areas of their attacks.

I get the feeling the police were trying to reassure the public, but the statement maybe could have been worded a bit better. Then again, in the current climate I suppose they wouldn't be able to win with certain sections whatever they said.

 

[Haywain]

Like I said, that hundreds of the worst idiots are going to be in jail and the fact the football starts this weekend means that's the end if that for now.

I'm getting a bit fed up with this correlation with football. There will be vastly more peace loving and tolerant people at football this weekend than racist rioting thugs, and there will be vast numbers of rioting thugs going nowhere near football grounds all season. There may be a crossover but it isn't anywhere near as big as you and others are making out.

 

[Bluejays]

That Labour Councillor has been suspended from the party and is of police interest it seems, which is absolutely the correct thing to do.

Suspended Labour councillor arrested after video emerges urging crowd to cut throats

Party says speech in Walthamstow ‘completely unacceptable’ as a man in his 50s is arrested for incitement

www.independent.co.uk

Stick him in a cell with mr throat slitty gesture from outside the migrant hotel. They may realise that despite their differences, deep down they are very similar scumbags.



I do also have another idea of how to deal with them. But if I voice it I think I'd be the one locked up

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

I'm getting a bit fed up with this correlation with football. There will be vastly more peace loving and tolerant people at football this weekend than racist rioting thugs, and there will be vast numbers of rioting thugs going nowhere near football grounds all season. There may be a crossover but it isn't anywhere near as big as you and others are making out.

Good point. Also a lot of people affiliated with football clubs who'd have been organised and out in numbers to counter violence.

 

[yorkie]

It's true that many of these thugs will also look to cause bother at football games. But the correlation is very much one-way in my opinion; the vast majority of football supporters are not like this.

No doubt there is more of a correlation within certain 'groups'/'firms' at certain clubs, who have a reputation for poor behaviour, but even then such groups are a minority within yhe overall supporter based of the clubs in question.

And they aren't really interested in football itself; if another sport was our national sport then they would be following teams of that sport instead!

 

[Trackman]

I'm getting a bit fed up with this correlation with football. There will be vastly more peace loving and tolerant people at football this weekend than racist rioting thugs, and there will be vast numbers of rioting thugs going nowhere near football grounds all season. There may be a crossover but it isn't anywhere near as big as you and others are making out.

I'm with you on that, it's a very small percentage.