Old Style Level Crossing Questions

[zwk500]

It is not quite apparent why such cumbersome methods were long used to deliver water etc by train to crossing cottages where, by definition, there was ready road access at that point for a lorry or van to bring items in.

Presumably it was cheaper for the railway to put the churns in a brake van than to have to send an entire road vehicle out, especially if the crossing cottage was the only one in the vicinity needing a delivery.

 

[WestAnglian]

Would it have been the case in much less heavily (road) trafficked times that some level crossings would have been left closed to road traffic and opened “on demand” (when safe to do, of course) - or would that have fallen foul of various regulations by blocking the highway? Referring to public crossings rather than occupation ones.

Appleford, near Didcot, and Heatherbell, near Coatbridge, were both like this until recently. Don't know the current status.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==

IIRC, there used to be a gated level crossing at Warnham which was only opened for road traffic when the box was staffed. At weekends (as well as at other times) when the box was switched out the crossing didn't open either. I think the crossing is now permanently closed.

The busy Lincoln Road crossing south of Enfield Town was similar. The crossing remained down at various times. I think during the peaks orginally, then on weekends until it was finally abolished. High traffic levels on the line was the cause of the former, and I expect the cost of opening a gate box was the reason for its subsequent decline and closure.

 

[Belperpete]

It is not quite apparent why such cumbersome methods were long used to deliver water etc by train to crossing cottages where, by definition, there was ready road access at that point for a lorry or van to bring items in.

Because one train could bring in water to all the crossing cottages, signalboxes, stations and other places along the line that needed water, rather than arranging separate horse and cart deliveries to each individual place.

 

[Sun Chariot]

It is not quite apparent why such cumbersome methods were long used to deliver water etc by train to crossing cottages where, by definition, there was ready road access at that point for a lorry or van to bring items in.

Perhaps the railway accountants of the time, didn't warm to paying a road haulier to do it when the water could come via "already costed" booked train and crew.

Edit - oops, I missed zwk500's and BelperPete's replies....

 

[Andy873]

The interlocking means that once the signalman has cleared a signal leading across the level-crossing, i.e. one the train comes to just before it reaches the crossing itself, the lever locking the gates ‘closed to road traffic/open to rail traffic’ is locked in position and he can’t move it. Once the train has passed he can put the signal back to Danger, move the gate locking lever, which in its new position release the lock on the gates and allows them to be opened. The rule is very simple: you can’t clear a signal across a level-crossing unless the gates are locked shut to road traffic and as soon as you clear the signal the gates are locked closed until the signal is back at Danger.

Thanks for that explanation, it sums it up nicely.

One particular issue with remote crossing keeper cottages was a considerable lack of building services (apart of course from the block bells wired in to the adjacent lineside telegraph poles. No mains water or sewage, sometimes no electricity

I didn't realise (not coming across one knowingly) that some keeper cottages were so basic. I could understand deliveries of say food, milk, parcels etc but it never occurred to me water may have to be delivered as well. On the flip side, most of these would be out in open country which would give you some pleasant views and surroundings.

 

[Rescars]

Because one train could bring in water to all the crossing cottages, signalboxes, stations and other places along the line that needed water, rather than arranging separate horse and cart deliveries to each individual place.

And presumably similar arrangements for coal, lamp oil, and other similar supplies.

 

[John Webb]

And presumably similar arrangements for coal, lamp oil, and other similar supplies.

Adrian Vaughan, in his books about his signalling life, records how a 'stores van' was attached to a local passenger train from Swindon once a week and would drop off at stations and the like items from stores that had been requested. Coal was delivered from a wagon, the train being stopped by the signal box while coal was shovelled out into the signal box bunker. I can't recall him mentioning how drums of signalling oil were delivered.

 

[Gloster]

As was Largin box in Cornwall up to closure in 1992. Not a crossing box though so off topic.

Liskeard filled the containers gave them to the driver of the Down afternoon stopper, he would stop (cue lots of heads peering out, “Why have we stoppped in the middle of the woods?”) and would give us the containers, we would hand up the empties and the train would depart. The empties circulated via Bodmin Parkway. Stores of just about every type except ‘signed for’ items would come down in a cardboard box. Stores would get all sorts of stuff arriving. in boxes and hang on to the boxes rather than crushing them. I had one from the early 1980s that I annexed and used at home for years until the damp got into it. Just a fairly standard box that originally contained two dozen bottles of cleaning fluid, but with a green On Company Service label on the top.

 

[Eyersey468]

Were any crossing cottages demolished after a line closed rather than being sold off?

 

[Gloster]

Were any crossing cottages demolished after a line closed rather than being sold off?

Plenty. BR generally offered them to the redundant crossing-keepers first, but if they didn’t want it they tried to sell them. However, many were located in lonely locations, were small, in poor condition or lacking the most basic amenities and so there no takers. BR often demolished them to avoid ongoing liabilities.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Were any crossing cottages demolished after a line closed rather than being sold off?

Many were also demolished when crossings were upgraded or closed.

 

[DelW]

The interlocking means that once the signalman has cleared a signal leading across the level-crossing, i.e. one the train comes to just before it reaches the crossing itself, the lever locking the gates ‘closed to road traffic/open to rail traffic’ is locked in position and he can’t move it. Once the train has passed he can put the signal back to Danger, move the gate locking lever, which in its new position release the lock on the gates and allows them to be opened. The rule is very simple: you can’t clear a signal across a level-crossing unless the gates are locked shut to road traffic and as soon as you clear the signal the gates are locked closed until the signal is back at Danger.

Thanks for that explanation, it sums it up nicely.

You can watch the sequence in action several times a day* by looking at the Railcam webcam at Blue Anchor on the West Somerset railway. The crossing has four wheel-operated gates and the camera view includes lower quadrant semaphore signals either side of the crossing.

*(Not Monday or Friday on the current timetable.)

WSR Blue Anchor

The web camera gives you an excellent view of the station buildings and wheel operated level crossing. You'll see trains arriving from and departing to Mine...

www.youtube.com

(Link to that camera on YouTube)

 

[Eyersey468]

Plenty. BR generally offered them to the redundant crossing-keepers first, but if they didn’t want it they tried to sell them. However, many were located in lonely locations, were small, in poor condition or lacking the most basic amenities and so there no takers. BR often demolished them to avoid ongoing liabilities.

Many were also demolished when crossings were upgraded or closed.

Thanks

 

[Andy873]

You can watch the sequence in action several times a day* by looking at the Railcam webcam at Blue Anchor on the West Somerset railway.

Thank you for sharing the webcam link. I did watch a steamer come into the station yesterday, the gates closed about 1 minute before it arrived and the home stater signal was set to clear.

The train stayed at the station for I think around 3 or 4 minutes then moved off. The gates re-opened after the stater signal was set back to danger.

A lovely watch! but you'll need to pull up their timetable first as I did.

 

[Ken H]

1. Is the cottage by Staveley crossing on the Oxenholme-Windermere branch an ex keepers cottage?

2. Is the level crossing at Hetton on the Skipton - Rylstone freight branch the most basic crossing in use on Network Rail.
Think procedure is: train stops short of crossing and a railway person gets out and closes the gates. El cheapo metal farm gates. Train moves forward over crossing with person left at the crossing. When the train has passes slowly, the air brake cock at the back of the train is opened to stop the train. Person openes gates then closes brake cock and walks to the cab so the train can carry on. Its single track.

 

[Krokodil]

. Is the level crossing at Hetton on the Skipton - Rylstone freight branch the most basic crossing in use on Network Rail.
Think procedure is: train stops short of crossing and a railway person gets out and closes the gates.

No, the most basic crossings are those seen on the Pembroke Dock and Looe branches. Train stops, blows horn, continues across at slow speed. Not so much as a light, let alone a gate or barrier.

 

[Gloster]

1. Is the cottage by Staveley crossing on the Oxenholme-Windermere branch an ex keepers cottage?

If you mean the one across Kendal Road to the south of the village, I would say very probably. It seems to be too close to the track to have been built for any other purpose later on, but you would have to study old maps and histories to be sure. The railway did use existing buildings if they were convenient, but that wasn’t often.

 

[Rescars]

No, the most basic crossings are those seen on the Pembroke Dock and Looe branches. Train stops, blows horn, continues across at slow speed. Not so much as a light, let alone a gate or barrier.

When it comes to unusual level crossing practices, we should remember the Vinegar Works branch, where the road traffic was halted using railway semaphore signals.

 

[D6130]

When it comes to unusual level crossing practices, we should remember the Vinegar Works branch, where the road traffic was halted using railway semaphore signals.

Was that the one in Worcester?

 

[Rescars]

Was that the one in Worcester?

Yes!

 

[John Luxton]

Tal-y-Cafn still retains a crossing keeper on the Conwy Valley line. I have often wondered why it hasn't been automated. Wikpedia states "The station is officially an unstaffed halt (tickets must be purchased on the train or prior to travel), but the level crossing at the south end is still staffed (due to its location next to the river bridge) and retains its manually-operated metal gates; the crossing keeper works out of an office in the main building."

Why does the position next to the river bridge mean that the crossing has to be staffed?

 

[Gloster]

Tal-y-Cafn still retains a crossing keeper on the Conwy Valley line. I have often wondered why it hasn't been automated. Wikpedia states "The station is officially an unstaffed halt (tickets must be purchased on the train or prior to travel), but the level crossing at the south end is still staffed (due to its location next to the river bridge) and retains its manually-operated metal gates; the crossing keeper works out of an office in the main building."

Why does the position next to the river bridge mean that the crossing has to be staffed?

Frankly, I can’t see why the crossing wasn’t converted to one of the simplest types long ago. The bridge seems too far away and even the A470 looks like it is at a sufficient distance for there to be no risk of traffic backing up from the T-Junction. Or perhaps there is a weight limit on the bridge and they don’t want traffic backing up onto that, but… It is not as if the line sees any fast trains or heavy goods, just a DMU and very occasional specials.

 

[edwin_m]

For a really tricky crossing take a look at Kiveton Park. The barriers on one side are straight onto a T-junction and the other leads almost immediately onto a single-lane bridge. Unsurprisingly this is controlled from an adjacent signal box.

 

[Krokodil]

Frankly, I can’t see why the crossing wasn’t converted to one of the simplest types long ago.

You wouldn't want an open crossing there, but I could see barriers operated by a plunger on the platform being suitable, as used on the HoWL

 

[plugwash]

Particularly in these impatient days, but even in the olden days, I wonder how the crossing keeper/signaller actually got the traffic to stop so they could shut the gates (I am thinking more of the manual ones).
I'm surprised these are still allowed as it puts the operator in a very vulnerable position, both from vehicles hitting them and angry drivers, and modern litigiousness presumably means they can't be too aggressive with thrusting gates at moving vehicles (too much risk of getting sued).

At ramsbottom on the ELR traffic lights were added to make it easier to close the crossing gates. I don't know exactly when this happened or who added them, but I'm pretty sure they were not there when I first visited the line.

 

[John Webb]

At ramsbottom on the ELR traffic lights were added to make it easier to close the crossing gates. I don't know exactly when this happened or who added them, but I'm pretty sure they were not there when I first visited the line.

Photographs of the crossing on the Geograph website indicate they were installed around 2008, so presumably by or on behalf of the ELR.

 

[Andy873]

Photographs of the crossing on the Geograph website indicate they were installed around 2008, so presumably by or on behalf of the ELR.

I was about to jump in on this one. I remember reading (but can't think where) that there was a minor incident involving a car being hit with one of their trains, if that's correct then this was probably when these traffic lights were installed but not sure if I'm correct on this.

 

[Belperpete]

Frankly, I can’t see why the crossing wasn’t converted to one of the simplest types long ago. The bridge seems too far away and even the A470 looks like it is at a sufficient distance for there to be no risk of traffic backing up from the T-Junction. Or perhaps there is a weight limit on the bridge and they don’t want traffic backing up onto that, but… It is not as if the line sees any fast trains or heavy goods, just a DMU and very occasional specials.

There doesn't appear to be any weight restriction. I suspect that it might be down to it seeing very heavy traffic, e.g. when the bridge at Llanrwst is closed by flooding? Leading to a risk of blocking back from the A470 junction which is reasonably close, or if traffic is waiting for a wide load to cross the bridge?

There are a couple of gated accommodation crossings on the Cambrian that are now manned, due to the volume of pedestrian traffic. All the chap seems to do is stand in the doorway of his portacabin and watch the trains go past, usually with cup of tea in hand.

 

[zwk500]

There doesn't appear to be any weight restriction. I suspect that it might be down to it seeing very heavy traffic, e.g. when the bridge at Llanrwst is closed by flooding? Leading to a risk of blocking back from the A470 junction which is reasonably close, or if traffic is waiting for a wide load to cross the bridge?

If anything, higher traffic would be a better justification for automation, as the safety benefits are multiplied across more traffic. The risk to the keeper would also be much bigger. I think Wikipedia may be repeating a local legend about the bridge, IMHO, which it has at various other station articles.

A lightly trafficked road, on a lightly trafficked line, adjacent to a station where all trains stop, with a keeper's office in the station building, would not be a good case for investing. The risk to the keeper is minimal, there isn't much road traffic to benefit from shorter closures, few trains to benefit from faster/easier approaches to the station (if achieved at all), no saving on maintenance or buildings to sell off and very little saving on staff requirements to allow redeployment/retiring.

 

[D6130]

There are a couple of gated accommodation crossings on the Cambrian that are now manned, due to the volume of pedestrian traffic. All the chap seems to do is stand in the doorway of his portacabin and watch the trains go past, usually with cup of tea in hand.

Sounds like the ideal job for a lazy retired railwayman like me! I wonder whether there are any similar vacancies elsewhere?