How could a SE - NW XC service work?

[paul1609]

Is there much point? St Pancras - Euston is a 10 minute walk and going via London is going to be far more frequent.

The issue I find is that the walk is ok if you are connecting on to a high frequency service from Euston (or kings Cross) with a walk up ticket its not much of a deterent. However if you are travelling on an advance ticket having to allow the best part of an hour in London to satisfy the minimum connection time it makes cross-London rail travel unattractive. As a consequence I tend to do most shorter cross london journeys by car and the Longer journeys to Scotland Ill fly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue I find is that the walk is ok if you are connecting on to a high frequency service from Euston (or kings Cross) with a walk up ticket its not much of a deterent. However if you are travelling on an advance ticket having to allow the best part of an hour in London to satisfy the minimum connection time it makes cross-London rail travel unattractive. As a consequence I tend to do most shorter cross london journeys by car and the Longer journeys to Scotland Ill fly.

Often splitting at London is good value anyway, and in that case you can use a walk up for the last bit.

 

[paul1609]

Often splitting at London is good value anyway, and in that case you can use a walk up for the last bit.

I occasionally do but living in Kent or basically any where south of the river a walk up north of the river is prohibitively expensive once you get out of the ex-nse area.

 

[telstarbox]

And most of Kent has good road links so it can be quicker to drive to say Reading or Cambridge than to change trains / tubes in London.

 

[AlastairFraser]

And most of Kent has good road links so it can be quicker to drive to say Reading or Cambridge than to change trains / tubes in London.

Kent to Essex/Cambs, sure. But the perpetual congestion on the southern M25 and M4 makes things very difficult travelling Kent/Surrey to anywhere on the M4/M40 corridors.

 

[Magdalia]

And most of Kent has good road links so it can be quicker to drive to say Reading or Cambridge than to change trains / tubes in London.

It is a very short walk from the Javelin platforms at St Pancras to the suburban platforms at King Cross, and no concerns about advance tickets.

 

[paul1609]

Kent to Essex/Cambs, sure. But the perpetual congestion on the southern M25 and M4 makes things very difficult travelling Kent/Surrey to anywhere on the M4/M40 corridors.

Kent to the M4 (Reading & Beyond) isnt too bad you go down the M3 to Bracknell and rejoin the M4 from the A329(M). If i need to go to Oxford Id also go that way. The M40 is the sticky route really but Birmingham and beyond you go up the M11 and then A14 to the M1/6 junction, surprisingly from the Dartford Crossing that route is only 7 miles further than staying on the M25 and then going up the M1 via Milton Keynes. The A14 does suffer a bit from 56 mph truck over taking 55 1/2 mph truck but it doesnt seem to have much impact on journeytimes.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Kent to the M4 (Reading & Beyond) isnt too bad you go down the M3 to Bracknell and rejoin the M4 from the A329(M). If i need to go to Oxford Id also go that way. The M40 is the sticky route really but Birmingham and beyond you go up the M11 and then A14 to the M1/6 junction, surprisingly from the Dartford Crossing that route is only 7 miles further than staying on the M25 and then going up the M1 via Milton Keynes. The A14 does suffer a bit from 56 mph truck over taking 55 1/2 mph truck but it doesnt seem to have much impact on journeytimes.

The A322 through Brackers can be a crawl though, and to get to the M3, you still have to suffer one of the worst bits of the M25 (not quite the absolute worst, that'll be around Heathrow).

On the other hand, if you are within 30 mins drive of a Southeastern High Speed-serviced station (which over 50 percent of Kent's population is), you have a high speed service to London, plus 20 mins on the tube to either Waterloo or Paddington and a train out of there, it's an attractive proposition.

The only option where the car will beat the train decisively is places like Sevenoaks, where it's only around 45 to the M3 junction (when the M25 is behaving).

 

[Mgameing123]

Completely avoiding London would be the wrong strategy. We should look at different routing options for this service because train paths are limited these days. But an extension of trains from Reading to Brighton again or Ashford could do then let GWR do the slow services on the North Downs Line.

Heading via Kensington Olympia could work but that depends on TFL’s strategy for the Overground.

 

[paul1609]

The A322 through Brackers can be a crawl though, and to get to the M3, you still have to suffer one of the worst bits of the M25 (not quite the absolute worst, that'll be around Heathrow).

On the other hand, if you are within 30 mins drive of a Southeastern High Speed-serviced station (which over 50 percent of Kent's population is), you have a high speed service to London, plus 20 mins on the tube to either Waterloo or Paddington and a train out of there, it's an attractive proposition.

The only option where the car will beat the train decisively is places like Sevenoaks, where it's only around 45 to the M3 junction (when the M25 is behaving).

Sorry but i dont think thats right, Youre right that the M25 up to Junction 11 isnt 70 mph and that its very slow throught Bracknell but its generally except a couple of hours at peak not stop start either. Im just 30 mins (in the wrong direction from HS1) but Reading Town Centre is most definately quicker on average by road than rail. Once you get to the outskirts next to the M4 (green park, Reading fc). it really is a no brainer.
Dont forget that if its quicker to Sevenoaks junction 5 via the A21 it will be quicker to all of Kent southof the M20.

 

[JonathanH]

But an extension of trains from Reading to Brighton again or Ashford could do then let GWR do the slow services on the North Downs Line.

The GWR trains basically prevent any faster service running on the North Downs Line as it is a two track railway with long signal sections.

While Reading to Brighton via Redhill might restore a number of different links, it isn't viable to run short trains on the Brighton line south of Gatwick.

 

[Tayway]

If journey times from the North and Midlands to Brighton and Gatwick Airport via Reading are uncompetitive with changing in London, could you instead have a service linking one or both to Bristol and/or Cardiff?

There previously was a daily GWR service from Cardiff to Brighton via Bristol and the south coast, and GWR already operate the North Downs line. 1tp2h with 5 car 802s, utilising the Bristol super fast paths that never materialised?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Sorry but i dont think thats right, Youre right that the M25 up to Junction 11 isnt 70 mph and that its very slow throught Bracknell but its generally except a couple of hours at peak not stop start either. Im just 30 mins (in the wrong direction from HS1) but Reading Town Centre is most definately quicker on average by road than rail. Once you get to the outskirts next to the M4 (green park, Reading fc). it really is a no brainer.
Dont forget that if its quicker to Sevenoaks junction 5 via the A21 it will be quicker to all of Kent southof the M20.

Well, I don't know where you live in Kent (I assume it must be rural), but it's 15 mins just from the end of the A3290 at Thames Valley Park into central Reading sometimes; if you're going in the A33 way, you hit the IDR tailbacks from Rose Kiln Lane lights onwards.

 

[A S Leib]

1tp2h with 5 car 802s, utilising the Bristol super fast paths that never materialised?

There's two Swansea superfasts; would they prevent extra services in those hours?

 

[JonathanH]

There's two Swansea superfasts; would they prevent extra services in those hours?

There is plenty else which would prevent through services from Bristol to Gatwick before having to worry about the timing of two trains from Swansea.

Running through services onto the North Downs Line failed during the Operation Princess era, when the trains missed their path in front of the local trains on the line. Given the number of stops made by the slower trains and the signal headways, a faster service will soon be held up by the train in front.

 

[The exile]

There previously was a daily GWR service from Cardiff to Brighton via Bristol and the south coast, and GWR already operate the North Downs line. 1tp2h with 5 car 802s, utilising the Bristol super fast paths that never materialised?

Ie Bristol TM - Parkway - Swindon - Reading - Redhill - Brighton?
If you were going to do something like that using all those spare IETs that GWR haven’t got (at present, at least), I would suggest trying to tap a few more intermediate markets by running the Bristol- Reading bit via Trowbridge and Newbury, thus closing one of the gaps that it is currently almost impossible to bridge by local train.

 

[YorkRailFan]

What about a Manchester-Crewe-Birmingham-Bristol-Westbury-Salisbury-Southampton-Brighton service? OK, not completely South East and XC doesn't have the stock for it but would it be competitive with changing in London and would there be capacity on the line?

 

[A S Leib]

What about a Manchester-Crewe-Birmingham-Bristol-Westbury-Salisbury-Southampton-Brighton service? OK, not completely South East and XC doesn't have the stock for it but would it be competitive with changing in London and would there be capacity on the line?

Manchester to Bristol is 3:10; if you can get from Euston to St. Pancras in 19 minutes or Waterloo in 25 minutes, you can get from Manchester to Gatwick or Basingstoke via London in more or less the same time. Bristol to Salisbury is 53 miles, Southampton is 77 miles and Brighton is 140 miles by rail via the Wessex Main and West Coastway lines, so not competitive time wise from Manchester unless it can average ~75 mph between Bristol and Salisbury, 120 mph between Bristol and Southampton, or 280 mph between Bristol and Brighton.

Overall, that route from Manchester to Brighton is 314 miles vs 243 miles for Manchester – Crewe – Euston + St. Pancras – Brighton, so I doubt it would ever be competitive time wise.

 

[Mgameing123]

Manchester to Bristol is 3:10; if you can get from Euston to St. Pancras in 19 minutes or Waterloo in 25 minutes, you can get from Manchester to Gatwick or Basingstoke via London in more or less the same time. Bristol to Salisbury is 53 miles, Southampton is 77 miles and Brighton is 140 miles by rail via the Wessex Main and West Coastway lines, so not competitive time wise from Manchester unless it can average ~75 mph between Bristol and Salisbury, 120 mph between Bristol and Southampton, or 280 mph between Bristol and Brighton.

Overall, that route from Manchester to Brighton is 314 miles vs 243 miles for Manchester – Crewe – Euston + St. Pancras – Brighton, so I doubt it would ever be competitive time wise.

To be honest services like these isn't really about speed. Its more about convience. Cross Country should provide a few limited services a day heading this route then maybe some limited services heading via the North Downs Line perhaps taking GWR's paths when they run. (realistically it would only run 3 - 5 times a day)

East West Rail would also provide a good link for Cross Country trains to use maybe running some trains from Sheffield to Reading.

 

[dk1]

Loadings were never great and would be even less so now with HS1.

 

[A S Leib]

(realistically it would only run 3 - 5 times a day)

Apart from services at the edges of the network (e.g. LNER's Aberdeen services and GWR's Carmarthen ones), I think they should run at least once every two hours or not at all.

East West Rail would also provide a good link for Cross Country trains to use maybe running some trains from Sheffield to Reading.

I'd imagine timing on the Marston Vale line would be an issue, and I'd be surprised if demand from Kettering to Reading and Oxford or Bicester to Derby's high enough to justify frequent direct services.

 

[Mgameing123]

Apart from services at the edges of the network (e.g. LNER's Aberdeen services and GWR's Carmarthen ones), I think they should run at least once every two hours or not at all.

I'd imagine timing on the Marston Vale line would be an issue, and I'd be surprised if demand from Kettering to Reading and Oxford or Bicester to Derby's high enough to justify frequent direct services.

Doesn't have to be frequent maybe just handful of trains per day should do.

 

[JonathanH]

Doesn't have to be frequent maybe just handful of trains per day should do.

Does a sufficient market exist for the expense of these kind of 'everywhere to everywhere' services?

Through services from Manchester to Brighton haven't run for 16 years now. Is the railway genuinely missing out on significant custom because it doesn't offer such a service? Are people who need to get from Manchester to Brighton really not travelling just because of the need to change trains?

 

[Mgameing123]

Does a sufficient market exist for the expense of these kind of 'everywhere to everywhere' services?

Through services from Manchester to Brighton haven't run for 16 years now. Is the railway genuinely missing out on significant custom because it doesn't offer such a service? Are people who need to get from Manchester to Brighton really not travelling just because of the need to change trains?

No they most likely are just travelling by car because they want to avoid the chaos that is the tube.

 

[A S Leib]

No they most likely are just travelling by car because they want to avoid the chaos that is the tube.

Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria, Oxford Road, Piccadilly, Airport, Bolton and Wigan comes to ~600 passengers per day. If there's a fifth of the demand between Manchester and Brighton as there is with Blackpool, that would fill around two-thirds of a Super Voyager each day.

 

[JamesT]

I’m slightly confused by the talk of whether there’s demand for direct Oxford to Derby etc. trains, as they exist already. The existing XC Newcastle to Reading do that when they actually run.
Rather than strange routes that wiggle their way across the country, I’d much rather have back a reliable 2tph service going through Birmingham where connections can be made.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

No they most likely are just travelling by car because they want to avoid the chaos that is the tube.

What chaos is that?

 

[Topological]

I’m slightly confused by the talk of whether there’s demand for direct Oxford to Derby etc. trains, as they exist already. The existing XC Newcastle to Reading do that when they actually run.
Rather than strange routes that wiggle their way across the country, I’d much rather have back a reliable 2tph service going through Birmingham where connections can be made.

Exactly

Most people want to know that there will be a train soon (30 minutes is not bad for a long journey) and that the train will actually turn up. Cross Country moved to that model with Operation Princess and, whilst the trains are too short, the X works well. There is no need to regress to having CrossCountry trains going north up the WCML, or going to other destinations in the south.

If someone in the South East really hates the tube then there are (albeit many are very slow) options to avoid using the tube. For example Brighton to Gatwick and then Gatwick to Reading. All a direct train would do is remove those two connections, but time-wise would be very similar (being the exact same route*)

* Noting past CrossCountry routed via Kensington Olympia, but that the route that way is more congested than it used to be.

 

[Highview]

I used to love travelling on these cross country trains in the eighties. One aspect to add is that was some crazy late running, at least on several of the trains I took!

 

[dk1]

No they most likely are just travelling by car because they want to avoid the chaos that is the tube.

Is the tube that chaotic though? Never find it much of an issue and certainly not enough to put me off the journey.