Class 175 future speculation

[HamworthyGoods]

If these trains are just sitting around and available, why don’t they just get on with it and get them over to GWR for training? The situation of having some London trains running as 5 car IET’s is not good. I presume this is because 5 car IET’s are being used on Cardiff to south-west services?

Who is they?
If it was a private industry yes, however being pseudo nationalised this requires government sign off and this takes time.

 

[Pete_uk]

I've done a mockup of GWR full (left) and GWR lazy (right).

View attachment 162850

Credit for base image: @WestRail642fan via Wikipedia/Wikimedia Commons.

Inside there are red seat handles, TfW seat cushions and stickers. Stickers will almost certainly be replaced, and cushions would be changed when the existing ones are worn. I wouldn't be surprised if the red seat handles remained, blue panels still exist on the LNWR class 350/1s despite being refurbished. The TfW interior is in pretty good condition.

Green doors and a white body would be a pretty terrible temporary livery as the proper GWR livery would require the doors to be repainted. If we get a temporary livery I expect TfW with GWR stickers until a full vinyl wrap can be done.

Given the recent pinch on railway finance, I'd assume the least and hope for the best! EMR certainly got lucky that the refurbishment was signed off when it was.

The 'lazy' one on the right!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Inside there are red seat handles, TfW seat cushions and stickers. Stickers will almost certainly be replaced, and cushions would be changed when the existing ones are worn. I wouldn't be surprised if the red seat handles remained, blue panels still exist on the LNWR class 350/1s despite being refurbished. The TfW interior is in pretty good condition.

I think there was a metal strip/band along the inside of these units which remained in First Group Purple right through Arriva's lease and didn't get painted over until the TfW refurb (though I might be wrong on that). If so, keeping the red handles would be about par for the course for these units.

Green doors and a white body would be a pretty terrible temporary livery as the proper GWR livery would require the doors to be repainted. If we get a temporary livery I expect TfW with GWR stickers until a full vinyl wrap can be done.

Presumably the temporary green doors would be done in vinyl, to avoid the repaint into the full GWR livery being a second repaint. Unless of course they don't intend to ever do the full repaint but instead keep them white for another 10-20 years then send them for scrap, which of course highlights the question "who are 'they'" which somebody raised above. What does the new UK Labour government have in mind for the role of GBR? Unlike in the original Williams-Shapps plan, they are no longer expected to let franchise contracts out to private companies, but are the seperate Operator Of Last Resort enties (eg. LNER) expected to remain or will they all be merged under the GBR banner? If the later, keeping the white livery could turn out to be a very wise decision.

While I do like elements of the LNER and GWR brands (and isn't the latter still run by First Group?), taking a holistic view of UK rolling stock assets and infrustructure needs (electrification), I feel there would be considerable merit in combining at least the long-distance-high-speed elements of GWR, XC, Avanti, LNER and EMR into a single pool with a common INTERCITY brand to allow sharing of stock.

 

[Energy]

I think there was a metal strip/band along the inside of these units which remained in First Group Purple right through Arriva's lease and didn't get painted over until the TfW refurb (though I might be wrong on that). If so, keeping the red handles would be about par for the course for these units.

Arriva did quite a nice refurb of the 158s but otherwise ATW had far more problems than a metal band!

Presumably the temporary green doors would be done in vinyl, to avoid the repaint into the full GWR livery being a second repaint.

Im not sure what elements of the TfW livery are painted and what are vinyl. If the door is painted then I wouldn’t be surprised if they left it red temporarily if they intend to do a proper livery.

Unless of course they don't intend to ever do the full repaint but instead keep them white for another 10-20 years then send them for scrap

IIRC Project Churchward for new GWR units was intended to start delivering in 2028 so they’ll probably get ~7 years of service. Scrapped at 30 years old isn’t bad for a DMU.

"who are 'they'" which somebody raised above. What does the new UK Labour government have in mind for the role of GBR?

GWR is a strong brand and is unlikely to go away. GWR management will likely just be moved across, I wouldn’t be surprised if they ended up moving some XC staff across and had GWR drivers doing part of XC services.

 

[irish_rail]

GWR is a strong brand and is unlikely to go away. GWR management will likely just be moved across, I wouldn’t be surprised if they ended up moving some XC staff across and had GWR drivers doing part of XC services.

True, but "Intercity" would be stronger. If we are really serious about saving money then we need to do away with all these different brands and colour schemes. An 800 on the Western should look the same (livery and branding wise) as one on the East Coast.

 

[43096]

IIRC Project Churchill for new GWR units was intended to start delivering in 2028 so they’ll probably get ~7 years of service. Scrapped at 30 years old isn’t bad for a DMU.

It’s Churchward, not Churchill, as you have been told before.

 

[Wyrleybart]

GWR is a strong brand and is unlikely to go away. GWR management will likely just be moved across, I wouldn’t be surprised if they ended up moving some XC staff across and had GWR drivers doing part of XC services.

Would there be that much of a saving though ?
At the moment XC PL drivers sign Penzance-Birmingham via Westbury and via Bridgewater as well as Long Rock and Laira depots, but their only traction is VOY. Two XC DTMs look after their drivers at Plymouth. At the very least every XC PL Dvr would need to learn 8xx in diesel mode, as well as the DTMs. That isa huge number of training days to detach the drivers for, even if the XC drivers were trained by GWR trainers. Conversely GWR drivers (both HSS and GWR at Presumably Bristol, Exeter, Plymouth and Par) would need to learn VOY which I believe a number of PL drivers already do for shunting on Laira.

But when it comes to it, is it financially worth it ? I know it has been said that Exeter drivers have had to scratch off Taunton-Bristol route knowledge, but would the merging of work really be cost effective, particularly as workload for driver managers would increase to encompass the "new" tractions for each other. I am guessing there are about 60 XC drivers at Plymouth - how many GWR and HSS are there ?

 

[Clarence Yard]

You would keep them in separate links to start with and then slowly harmonise. The saving is in all the duplicated management and admin and eventually, of course, the number of diagrams and then the train crew establishment. But the latter two will take time.

If GBR adopts a regional structure, you could see this happening all over the network.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Would there be that much of a saving though ?
At the moment XC PL drivers sign Penzance-Birmingham via Westbury and via Bridgewater as well as Long Rock and Laira depots, but their only traction is VOY. Two XC DTMs look after their drivers at Plymouth. At the very least every XC PL Dvr would need to learn 8xx in diesel mode, as well as the DTMs. That isa huge number of training days to detach the drivers for, even if the XC drivers were trained by GWR trainers. Conversely GWR drivers (both HSS and GWR at Presumably Bristol, Exeter, Plymouth and Par) would need to learn VOY which I believe a number of PL drivers already do for shunting on Laira.

But when it comes to it, is it financially worth it ? I know it has been said that Exeter drivers have had to scratch off Taunton-Bristol route knowledge, but would the merging of work really be cost effective, particularly as workload for driver managers would increase to encompass the "new" tractions for each other. I am guessing there are about 60 XC drivers at Plymouth - how many GWR and HSS are there ?

The Voyagers are nearly 20 years older than the 80x... Perhaps XC crews could learn 80x but not the other way round, so that when the Voyagers are removed everyone already signs the newer traction that will (presumably) last quite a bit longer. Voyagers are also diesel-only units. Admittedly my suggestion is less useful for the relevant GWR routes in the short term, where we are still waiting for wires, but the ECML (LNER), MML (EMR), WCML (Avanti), MAN-BHM (XC) and York-BHM (XC) would all benefit from the InterCity bi-mode fleet (we already have (or are expecting shortly) eighty 800s, fourty-two 801s, sixty 802s, thirteen 805s, thirty-three 810s and ten Civities (for LNER, class number unknown) - we musn't order any more) being shared between them. This is getting off-topic for this thread, so I'll leave it there, but a shared fleet would impact on whether the GWR brand would/could be applied to the 175s.

 

[Energy]

True, but "Intercity" would be stronger. If we are really serious about saving money then we need to do away with all these different brands and colour schemes. An 800 on the Western should look the same (livery and branding wise) as one on the East Coast.

GBR will need to decide what Intercity is, as you know, west of Plymouth the GWR Intercity services stop quite a lot.

It’s Churchward, not Churchill, as you have been told before.

Apologies, fixed.

If GBR adopts a regional structure, you could see this happening all over the network.

Indeed, XC & TPE between York & Newcastle and WMR & TfW between Birmingham and Shrewsbury are obvious ones.

The Voyagers are nearly 20 years older than the 80x... Perhaps XC crews could learn 80x but not the other way round, so that when the Voyagers are removed everyone already signs the newer traction that will (presumably) last quite a bit longer.

Unless XC gets Hitachi units the voyagers are going to be around for a lot longer…

 

[Rhydgaled]

Unless XC gets Hitachi units the voyagers are going to be around for a lot longer…

Hence my suggestion for sharing the Hitachi (and CAF) bi-mode/tri-mode 125+mph stock between what are currently seperate TOCs. For example, EMR have 33 bi-modes on-order for what will eventually be only two diagrams operating away from the wires (no Melton Mowbray services anymore, just the two early Lincoln starts). All the rest could be EMUs, but it'd be a microfleet if GBR keep the 'franchise' silos. A common pool and brand would allow those bi-modes to be used on what is currently XC the rest of the time, while getting new EMUs for the Midland Main Line once it is finally wired. Similarly, Stoke Gifford depot is reasonably well-placed to provide 800s for use by XC on the Aberdeen-Penzance and Manchester-Bristol axes if and when Bristol, Oxford and Swansea are wired up to Paddington to provide a critical mass for what is currently GWR to get some InterCity EMUs. But all this unit sharing doesn't work all that well if the 'franchise' silos remain, which makes the case for painting the 175s in a new national GBR scheme a bit more compelling.

 

[Melancholia]

An update from ASLEF, that they've had their first meeting to discuss the introduction of 27 x 175 units, 11 x 2 car, 16 x 3 car, to be planned to operate between Exeter - Penzance/Barnstaple/Okehampton.

 

[Lurcheroo]

An update from ASLEF, that they've had their first meeting to discuss the introduction of 27 x 175 units, 11 x 2 car, 16 x 3 car, to be planned to operate between Exeter - Penzance/Barnstaple/Okehampton.

So that is every unit and puts some earlier discussion to bed!

Great stuff. Really nice units and will provide much needed capacity.

It seems like a lot of units just for those 3 routes ?
Just looking at RTT, there’s only 1 service a day starting at Exter to Penzance. I think it would be fair to say that they won’t go to London so will they also do Cardiff - Exeter (and then on to Penzance) ?

Also looking at the Cardiff - Penzance services they then form a service to Plymouth so perhaps so re-diagramming will be needed what ever they do !

 

[Xavi]

So that is every unit and puts some earlier discussion to bed!

Great stuff. Really nice units and will provide much needed capacity.

It seems like a lot of units just for those 3 routes ?
Just looking at RTT, there’s only 1 service a day starting at Exter to Penzance. I think it would be fair to say that they won’t go to London so will they also do Cardiff - Exeter (and then on to Penzance) ?

Also looking at the Cardiff - Penzance services they then form a service to Plymouth so perhaps so re-diagramming will be needed what ever they do !

I am sure it was mentioned elsewhere that Penzance, Plymouth, Exeter, Okehampton, Barnstaple diagrams would be the initial focus for crew training with Cardiff to follow later.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I am sure it was mentioned elsewhere that Penzance, Plymouth, Exeter, Okehampton, Barnstaple diagrams would be the initial focus for crew training with Cardiff to follow later.

Ahhh! That makes sense.
It probably has been but I look at so much I forget

 

[RPI]

Was chatting with someone today who is in the know, they seemed to think that the simulator(s) are definitely coming (they said there were two?)

 

[fgwrich]

Was chatting with someone today who is in the know, they seemed to think that the simulator(s) are definitely coming (they said there were two?)

Correct. I don't know why some are still doubting this until they see something written in the media, it's been known about for a few months now that they were coming!

 

[adc82140]

I'm sure there are many reasons why they've chosen those routes, but it's a bit of a shame that they won't be used for Cardiff-Portsmouth, with the 16x and remaing 158s from that route send to Devon/Cornwall.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I'm sure there are many reasons why they've chosen those routes, but it's a bit of a shame that they won't be used for Cardiff-Portsmouth, with re 16x and remaing 158s from that route send to Decon/Cornwall.

For starters the maintenance depot which has spare capacity following the withdrawal of the HSTs is in Plymouth (Laira), this is nowhere near the Cardiff to Portsmouth route…

 

[craigybagel]

Was chatting with someone today who is in the know, they seemed to think that the simulator(s) are definitely coming (they said there were two?)

Correct on there being two - one in Chester and one in Cardiff. Not sure on the current status of either of them mind.

 

[northernbelle]

Correct. I don't know why some are still doubting this until they see something written in the media, it's been known about for a few months now that they were coming!

To be fair it was (and still is) a plan. Nothing's been signed on the dotted line yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2024 ==

I'm sure there are many reasons why they've chosen those routes, but it's a bit of a shame that they won't be used for Cardiff-Portsmouth, with the 16x and remaing 158s from that route send to Devon/Cornwall.

But they will displace 158s, 16x and IETs from Devon & Cornwall to go back to various routes including the Cardiff-Portsmouth, so 175 introduction in the West Country will benefit that route alongside the rest of the network.

 

[REVUpminster]

The 158s will go from Exeter but the turbos will still be needed for Exmouth-Paignton. There are not enough 150s and the 175s are not suitable although it's inevitable the odd one will work the route as does the odd 158 now.

 

[CptCharlee]

Guessing Cardiff to Penzance and Penzance to Plymouth will all be 5 car operated. Can the 175s operate in a 3x3 6 car formation?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Can the 175s operate in a 3x3 6 car formation?

I'm guessing you mean 3+3=6 rather than 3x3 which would be a 9-car formation.

I have a feeling there were some 6-car workings to and from Fishguard Harbour during the period that the boat trains were strengthened due to a volcanic ash cloud disrupting airline traffic, but I can't find any pictures to be sure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Guessing Cardiff to Penzance and Penzance to Plymouth will all be 5 car operated. Can the 175s operate in a 3x3 6 car formation?

Yes, a pair of 3 car units working as a 6 car set is possible. Hasn't been very common in the past though. Platform lengths probably the main barrier as they don't have ASDO.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yes, a pair of 3 car units working as a 6 car set is possible. Hasn't been very common in the past though. Platform lengths probably the main barrier as they don't have ASDO.

They don’t have ASDO but have selective unit opening so can release doors on front set only etc.

 

[TheWalrus]

Guessing Cardiff to Penzance and Penzance to Plymouth will all be 5 car operated. Can the 175s operate in a 3x3 6 car formation?

Currently the Castles are 4 car and the IETs are 5 car (with a carriage and a half taken up by First Class anyway) so I would image 3 or 4 car (2x2) 175s would be sufficient?

 

[REVUpminster]

I would have thought 3+2 for Cardiff Penzance. 3 car for Barnstaple and a 2 car for Okehampton probably by an empty stock move from Laira stabling overnight at Exeter until time to go back.

 

[JonathanH]

Guessing Cardiff to Penzance and Penzance to Plymouth will all be 5 car operated.

That is a big assumption. You could see many being 3 car and coupling up to another unit for the busier parts of the route.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

They don’t have ASDO but have selective unit opening so can release doors on front set only etc.

But also aren’t gangwayed so still potentially a problem.