Diesels "pushing" on steam railtours

[31160]

I can’t recall a single steam loco taking a train up there but I have seen double headed steam (one of which stalled spectacularly under Queen St bridge and had to reverse back to St David’s before being cancelled) as well as steam banked by steam.


Yes 33s are extremely capable little locos and they used to be thrashed fit to bursting point up there. I don’t recall one ever failing though!

I had 33202 fail on me at chard junc on a up service 47710 eventually arrived after the 33 was persuaded to restart,then it was double ended power till I bailed at Tisbury

 

[BlueLeanie]

It’s also three vehicles (rather than just one of a diesel loco) that are non-revenue earning, which means fewer seats and pushes seat prices up even further.

Why would it be non-revenue earning? Lots of lovely space that can be dressed as faux-historic. We were on the "Harry Potter" train at Universal a month ago. With the dressing of the carriages with fake bits, you'd think you were on a 100 year old train, not something that was built new 10 years ago.

How are you charging those batteries?

The same Diesel generator that you'd be using for hotel supply.

 

[Egg Centric]

I have been a very keen patron of main line steam specials for nearly 40 years, but my enthusiasm has significantly waned due to the issue of 'shoveage' i.e. diesel assisting at the rear.

Not sure about faceache, but it has been a hot topic on the NatPres (National Preservation) website for some time!

My principal interest is train timing / loco performance. I want to appreciate what the loco at the front is doing, not having to work out how much help is coming from the rear.

In my experience, the addition of a diesel makes it highly likely that assistance will be given as the load is increased and it's more difficult to maintain adhesion and/or keep time.

I did the Clun Castle tour in May 2024 because of the specifically advertised unassisted steam sections viz Bristol - Plymouth on the Friday and Plymouth - Bristol - Paddington on the Saturday.

But claims (including from the organisers) that Clun wasn't being assisted on the opening Birmingham - Bristol section were not just disingenuous but downright fanciful, especially given the running between Swindon and Bristol Parkway. Castle + 9 + 47 diesel topping Fosse Road in the mid 60s mph (mid 50s mph would be excellent for a Castle on 12!) was one thing, but sustaining 75+ mph on the 1:300 up to Badminton was quite another!

The arguments for and against a diesel on the back were brough into sharp focus on the South Devon banks. On the outward run, a 30 mph platform slack at Newton Abbot meant Dainton wasn't approached as quickly as it might and there wasn't the roar I've heard from other engines, speed falling to a minimum to 9 mph. The climb of Tigley / Rattery was a bit better.

But on the Saturday, despite a good speed at Plympton, the Castle stalled on Hemerdon, in ideal rail conditions. Again, other locos have been worked audibly harder. So the support 47 diesel running a block behind coupled up to give a shove. But in this instance, the suggestion the diesel gave no further assistance once we got up Hemerdon was more plausible and the Castle audibly worked very hard to regain the time lost waiting for the 47 to couple up.

Some railtour operatours (e.g. Vintage Trains) are more transparent than others (don't push me!) re whether a diesel will be attached. Also some loco support groups (Tornado and Clan Line spring to mind) don't like/want diesel assistance unless absolutely necessary, and so you have more chance of a proper steam run.

As a result of the shoveage I'm spending more time - and money - visiting our heritage railways, maybe not such a bad thing. I'd rather have unassisted steam at 25 mph on a heritage railway than 75mph shoved steam on the main line, and there's a vast range of locos to travel behind on heritage railways that will never be sampled on the main line.

I guess the issue is that you and I will notice this - for me there's limited "additional" attraction to mainline steam over either heritage steam or mainline diesel charters other than the engine being properly worked but most of those onboard are wealthy pensioners enjoying an overly expensive dinner who simply will not notice. If anything the vibrations cause by (sorry dunno steam equivalent of "hellfire") will put them off. I dunno what the solution is cause we need them to pay for it.

Longer term we will be moving away from rural railways again as a practical transport solution I think as self driving cars come about and hopefully then we get them back for proper heritage operations.

 

[43096]

Why would it be non-revenue earning? Lots of lovely space that can be dressed as faux-historic. We were on the "Harry Potter" train at Universal a month ago. With the dressing of the carriages with fake bits, you'd think you were on a 100 year old train, not something that was built new 10 years ago.


The same Diesel generator that you'd be using for hotel supply.

I note you haven’t addressed any of the cost issues and the impact that has on fares.

 

[pitdiver]

I think the use of Sarah Siddons and the pair of class 20s, was because the trains ran between Harrow O-T-H and Watford / Rickmansworth with no turning facilities.

Coincidentally, the other weeek, I was looking at my 35mm photos of the mid '90s events. The morning parallel run, with both trains steam hauled north, were the highlight each year for me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2024 ==


@Cowley Have you ever seen a steam loco take the Exeter St David's to Central incline unassisted?
It's a sharp curve - I don't know whether, in steam days, Light Pacifics could manage it without banking.
I've had a 33/1 take 9 up (a WoE service, deputising for a 50). A surprising ascent - good pace all the way up - but the "bag of spanners" at the front made a phenomenal racket in the tunnel.

At the time of the early "Steam on The Mets" I was working for LUL. I can remember working as Coach Steward for a number of years. Certainly remember the parallel runs. However the highlight was travelling on Sarah Siddons from Amersham to Neasden depot. Quite an experience.

 

[cce]

Longer term we will be moving away from rural railways again as a practical transport solution I think as self driving cars come about and hopefully then we get them back for proper heritage operations.

I suspect any 'moving away from rural railways as a practical transport solution' would be far more likely to result in the closure of rural railways than a playground for historical fantasies.

 

[CBlue]

I suspect any 'moving away from rural railways as a practical transport solution' would be far more likely to result in the closure of rural railways than a playground for historical fantasies.

Quite. The heritage operations that already exist seem to struggle for money and volunteers. One could argue that the "market" as it were is already oversaturated.

 

[DelW]

It'd be far better if a diesel (on main lines) ran one section behind so if needed at short notice, it could couple to the rear. I am aware at times, diesels provide steam heating to carriages during colder months.

Actually the other way round, steam locos can provide steam heating (unsurprisingly) but most charter carriage rakes are electrically heated.

Not all of them need a diesel loco even in winter, though, as some sets incorporate a generator car, converted from a mk1 coach.

 

[D1537]

It's a sharp curve - I don't know whether, in steam days, Light Pacifics could manage it without banking.
I've had a 33/1 take 9 up (a WoE service, deputising for a 50). A surprising ascent - good pace all the way up - but the "bag of spanners" at the front made a phenomenal racket in the tunnel.

During a farce with the sea wall in 1986 I had 33117 on an Exeter-Birmingham relief with 10 Mk1s on. The noise going up to Whiteball was *ridiculous* and we went through the tunnel at around 10-15mph. We got to Taunton and with a whiff of burning coming from the front, the driver requested a new locomotive at Bristol (I doubt if there would have been anyone to crew a 33 anyway, but the idea of it doing the Lickey as well would have been amusing). 47620 relieved us at Bristol.

 

[seedoubleyou]

Its easy to say charter operators should be purists and not use the diesel to help speed things up, but you aren't going to get much mainline steam anymore if the dine and sightseeing crowd that financially support these tours stop going because they got 5 minutes in Carlisle because it took 2 hours to get up Shap. (And having the operator take big delay attribution fines from NR)

I’m not so certain on if that actually happens. When I was a signaller we were often instructed to allow delay on charter trains so the punters get their moneys worth.

 

[Sun Chariot]

During a farce with the sea wall in 1986 I had 33117 on an Exeter-Birmingham relief with 10 Mk1s on. The noise going up to Whiteball was *ridiculous* and we went through the tunnel at around 10-15mph. We got to Taunton and with a whiff of burning coming from the front

Proof that our hobby was better in the '80s
When the pairs of 31/4s were used on Mk3 rakes for summer inter-regionals, I'd promised myself I'd snare a pair up Lickey.
Annoyingly, the motive power thar day was a 47/4...

 

[BlueLeanie]

I note you haven’t addressed any of the cost issues and the impact that has on fares.

This is true. I might knock together an opening for a speculative discussion thread later.

 

[12LDA28C]

There's nothing untoward about it - the ORR regularly ride on the footplate or trains of charter operators given the use of heritage traction on varied routes increases risk.

The driver on the rear loco cancels the AWS.

Cancels the AWS or isolates the AWS? I assume you mean isolate as there would be a hell of a lot of cancelling going on, every time the rear loco passed over a magnet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==

In September 2022, a Railway Touring Company trip I'd booked on was cancelled due to insufficient bookings.

In September 2023, another one I booked ran, but RTC did not give any clue beforehand as to whether it'd be diesel assisted. It was.

It'd be far better if a diesel (on main lines) ran one section behind so if needed at short notice, it could couple to the rear. I am aware at times, diesels provide steam heating to carriages during colder months.

Having a diesel on the back potentially wrecks or reduces the enjoyment of a day out with steam.

Diesels do not provide steam heat to the train, the steam loco will do that if the stock is steam-heated. The diesel on the rear will however certainly provide ETS for heating/air-con and other requirements on non-steam-heated stock, not least of which is the kitchen car on trains that feature dining.

 

[Dave S 56F]

I have been a very keen patron of main line steam specials for nearly 40 years, but my enthusiasm has significantly waned due to the issue of 'shoveage' i.e. diesel assisting at the rear.

Not sure about faceache, but it has been a hot topic on the NatPres (National Preservation) website for some time!

My principal interest is train timing / loco performance. I want to appreciate what the loco at the front is doing, not having to work out how much help is coming from the rear.

In my experience, the addition of a diesel makes it highly likely that assistance will be given as the load is increased and it's more difficult to maintain adhesion and/or keep time.

I did the Clun Castle tour in May 2024 because of the specifically advertised unassisted steam sections viz Bristol - Plymouth on the Friday and Plymouth - Bristol - Paddington on the Saturday.

But claims (including from the organisers) that Clun wasn't being assisted on the opening Birmingham - Bristol section were not just disingenuous but downright fanciful, especially given the running between Swindon and Bristol Parkway. Castle + 9 + 47 diesel topping Fosse Road in the mid 60s mph (mid 50s mph would be excellent for a Castle on 12!) was one thing, but sustaining 75+ mph on the 1:300 up to Badminton was quite another!

The arguments for and against a diesel on the back were brough into sharp focus on the South Devon banks. On the outward run, a 30 mph platform slack at Newton Abbot meant Dainton wasn't approached as quickly as it might and there wasn't the roar I've heard from other engines, speed falling to a minimum to 9 mph. The climb of Tigley / Rattery was a bit better.

But on the Saturday, despite a good speed at Plympton, the Castle stalled on Hemerdon, in ideal rail conditions. Again, other locos have been worked audibly harder. So the support 47 diesel running a block behind coupled up to give a shove. But in this instance, the suggestion the diesel gave no further assistance once we got up Hemerdon was more plausible and the Castle audibly worked very hard to regain the time lost waiting for the 47 to couple up.

Some railtour operatours (e.g. Vintage Trains) are more transparent than others (don't push me!) re whether a diesel will be attached. Also some loco support groups (Tornado and Clan Line spring to mind) don't like/want diesel assistance unless absolutely necessary, and so you have more chance of a proper steam run.

As a result of the shoveage I'm spending more time - and money - visiting our heritage railways, maybe not such a bad thing. I'd rather have unassisted steam at 25 mph on a heritage railway than 75mph shoved steam on the main line, and there's a vast range of locos to travel behind on heritage railways that will never be sampled on the main line.

Also the other thing on steam railtours non railway mainline steam enthusiasts like a friend I take will say oh the diesel has been giving us a shove that's why we have been arriving early at op stops or station set downs like on the mersey express 1 may 2024 5043 E.O.M.E. my mate thought 47773 assisted us up edge hill cutting as I were keeping track on national preservation and mainline steam specials facebook which I dident tell my mate or my own observations from my own thoughts the kettle 5043 the racket it was making.
Also another point as well since the Gatwick express incident and the intercity 125 class incidents window hanging has become also a bygone no no very strict now are train stewards on this and nowadays it even doubts me wether to continue doing mainline steam cos the only ones I have had unassisted is the V.T. 16 March 5043 Shap mountaineer unassisted from Carnforth Carlisle and Carlisle Crewe ret V.T. 7029 and V.T. shakespeare on 24 july 2024 Clun castle Plymouth 2 day tour its only cos I'm a keen financier of mainline steam and hard-core enthusiast I continue to aid mainline tours unassisted preferred or diesel assist which unfortunately is becoming the norm.

 

[Deepgreen]

Diesel assistance is here to stay as long as steam is permitted on the main line (and that may not be for a great deal longer, sadly). Diesels are there for assistance as required, hotel power, shunting at destination, etc. A few steam tours still run unassisted when all the criteria to allow it can be fulfilled. Coaching stock will only become less steam-appropriate with time - there are already many air-conditioned rakes now in use, and some are significantly likely to cook the occupants on warm days, owing to their unreliability! It is usual for rear diesels to run at idle, or at a tad above to take their own weight, unless assistance is requested.

 

[12LDA28C]

Diesel assistance is here to stay as long as steam is permitted on the main line (and that may not be for a great deal longer, sadly). Diesels are there for assistance as required, hotel power, shunting at destination, etc. A few steam tours still run unassisted when all the criteria to allow it can be fulfilled. Coaching stock will only become less steam-appropriate with time - there are already many air-conditioned rakes now in use, and some are significantly likely to cook the occupants on warm days, owing to their unreliability! It is usual for rear diesels to run at idle, or at a tad above to take their own weight, unless assistance is requested.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim? Clearly mainline steam operators don't share this view, spending huge amounts of money restoring steam locomotives to main line standards.

 

[Robin Edwards]

My take on this subject ......

The days where I used to record locomotive timings on mainline railtours have long-since ceased, simply because I didn't see the point of what I would be judging or comparing anymore. Modern railtours are often timed with lots of slack to allow holding in loops and at junctions to allow for passing service trains.
It's also the fact that railtours that once upon a time were full of enthusiasts, are now full of people spending lots of their ££ on food and that aren't especially enthusiasts and probably didn't notice or care very much that there's a class 47 on the rear. Once they get to the destination in their best bib & tucker, they can be seen to throng to the front to get their phones out for a picture with the shiny steam locomotive on the front.

Given that failures could prove very expensive, an insurance diesel on the back that might be able to recover a situation is prudent and sensible in my opinion. I'm just glad that in 2024 and a time where even the slow lines have faster trains than the steam locomotives are allowed to go, I am able to still enjoy steam. I just remind myself that just as it's not 1960 any more, it's not 1980 either and I'm just grateful for what we have and not caring very much if we needed a push from something at the rear.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I just remind myself that just as it's not 1960 any more, it's not 1980 either and I'm just grateful for what we have and not caring very much if we needed a push from something at the rear.

The sad reality is that it’s not even 2010 any more, and that makes even me feel ancient.

 

[Robin Edwards]

The sad reality is that it’s not even 2010 any more, and that makes even me feel ancient.

Oh so very true. I remember thinking the end was nigh for mainline steam when back in the 80s, class 25 diesels were painted (Ethals) to try and blend in with the coaches and would sit behind the steam on the front.
I'm just grateful that there's still steam on the mainline and lots still to look forward to as locos are returned from overhaul.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I'm just grateful that there's still steam on the mainline and lots still to look forward to as locos are returned from overhaul.

Agreed. I still enjoy photographing main line steam; albeit these days only when a charter passes my locality. I try to "hide" the rear diesel from view, though

 

[Deepgreen]

Do you have any evidence to support this claim? Clearly mainline steam operators don't share this view, spending huge amounts of money restoring steam locomotives to main line standards.

I am talking about a decade-plus timescale. I can't imagine steam being permitted on the network forever (but would love to be wrong), and it is steadily being degraded with more and more assistance provided, inappropriate coaching stock (e.g. air-con not working), etc., that will surely erode patronage. Just as importantly I think there is a generation that still recalls 'proper' steam but their passing will leave a big hole in bookings for main line tours. Locos are being restored, yes, but when major overhauls are required (in, again, a decade-plus timescale) the costs will be very high and may not be justified by bookings by then, especially if signalling and other technological requirements mean expensive extra equipment for compliance, etc.). Again, I hope I am wrong.

 

[Krokodil]

I am talking about a decade-plus timescale. I can't imagine steam being permitted on the network forever (but would love to be wrong), and it is steadily being degraded with more and more assistance provided, inappropriate coaching stock (e.g. air-con not working), etc., that will surely erode patronage. Just as importantly I think there is a generation that still recalls 'proper' steam but their passing will leave a big hole in bookings for main line tours. Locos are being restored, yes, but when major overhauls are required (in, again, a decade-plus timescale) the costs will be very high and may not be justified by bookings by then, especially if signalling and other technological requirements mean expensive extra equipment for compliance, etc.). Again, I hope I am wrong.

I could see DBS dropping out eventually. WCRC could go one of two ways - they (meaning Smith) may pull themselves together and sort out the coaches, or their passenger operations may wither away to just the Statesman.

VT however are working towards CDL fitment and LSL are definitely here to stay.

 

[renegademaster]

I could see DBS dropping out eventually. WCRC could go one of two ways - they (meaning Smith) may pull themselves together and sort out the coaches, or their passenger operations may wither away to just the Statesman.

VT however are working towards CDL fitment and LSL are definitely here to stay.

Has the coffins replacing the Mark 1s actually affected their sales? In my experience only enthusiasts really complain and the the 8 coaches of first and dining are the bread and butter of these kind of tours.

 

[43096]

Has the coffins replacing the Mark 1s actually affected their sales? In my experience only enthusiasts really complain and the the 8 coaches of first and dining are the bread and butter of these kind of tours.

Although given the ticket prices, you’d hope the dining would be a bit more than bread and butter!

 

[peteb]

Gaining time on a steam special can merely be due to the train being timed at 60mph for pathing purposes, but actually running at up to 75mph if the loco is passed for that speed, and the line speed limits permit. I've been on tours recently with no diesel and the loco managed 9 carriages and made very good time due to the above.

The pathing at 60mph allows the use of (or substitution of) a steam loco not permitted to run faster than 60mph (eg: a Black 5 in lieu of a West Country pacific) and still maintain the schedule.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==

Has the coffins replacing the Mark 1s actually affected their sales? In my experience only enthusiasts really complain and the the 8 coaches of first and dining are the bread and butter of these kind of tours.

I'd like to think that it would be possible to travel in Standard Class on tours with opening vents on the windows so that the sounds of the train working and indeed some fresh air (& smoke and a bit of soot) can enter the carriage. Impossible to lean out with four sat round a table and stewards on the ball. But a much better "experience" than Aircon sealed-in, where conversation tends to drown out external noise. Ironic therefore that some operators managed to get it "right" for diners, who out of necessity often want their window vents closed so soot doesn't land in their dinner..ha ha!

 

[Krokodil]

Has the coffins replacing the Mark 1s actually affected their sales? In my experience only enthusiasts really complain and the the 8 coaches of first and dining are the bread and butter of these kind of tours.

The fact that they haven't got enough coffins to cover all of their commitments has certainly affected sales. Do they still have empty coaches in the Jacobite formations? How many tours have been cancelled and how many fewer have been advertised this year compared with last?

Obviously if the aircon can't cope on a hot day then it won't just be the enthusiasts that complain.

 

[12LDA28C]

I could see DBS dropping out eventually. WCRC could go one of two ways - they (meaning Smith) may pull themselves together and sort out the coaches, or their passenger operations may wither away to just the Statesman.

VT however are working towards CDL fitment and LSL are definitely here to stay.

WCRC do not operate the Statesman, that's LSL.

 

[Krokodil]

WCRC do not operate the Statesman, that's LSL.

Whoops, I was thinking of the Northern Belle.

 

[12LDA28C]

Whoops, I was thinking of the Northern Belle.

Ah, yes. Plenty of money to be made with that particular train.

 

[Krokodil]

You can see how I got the two mixed up. Mock-Pullman Mk2 coffins top and tailed by Brush Type 4s (whether in original condition or rebuilt).