Opinions on Enthusiasts Possessing Master Keys

[FrodshamJnct]

I’ve recently come across a quite heated debate on social media on the subject of enthusiasts possessing master keys that have, presumably, been bought from eBay etc.

Interested to know views on this - my starting take on it is there isn’t any innate illegality in owning one?

The original poster of the video I saw was in a HST cab apparently at Crewe with their purchased master key ‘in’.

Their defence was that they were at the heritage centre and using the key they owned on an obviously non-operational train/loco.

They also claimed, “There’s a huge problem at the moment with enthusiasts owning keys and accessing cabs”. That’s a direct quote.

Is it just a case of yes they’ll come up for sale online sometimes but realistically but nothing is likely to happen?

 

[Recessio]

I've seen Carriage Bell Heater keys advertised for sale online, with no requirement to prove railway employment before purchase. I hadn't seen this for master keys though.

 

[12LDA28C]

A quick search on eBay finds precisely zero master keys listed. I'm not convinced there's a 'huge problem... with enthusiasts owning keys and accessing cabs'.

I don't believe it's illegal to own one or even to sell one although if a railway employee got caught selling any of their issued equipment on t'internet I'd imagine they would find themselves in hot water with their employer.

 

[Lucy1501]

I'd have no issue with someone owning one, but actually having it on you at railway properties or using it is another matter entirely.

Master Keys and T-Keys are a growing issue. They have been a standard for too long, are too easy to make, and are so widespread that they pose a genuine security issue. A large number come from retired and heritage staff, but even a few years ago I heard stories of drivers giving out spares to (especially younger) enthusiasts who ask.

Increasingly, younger individuals have been posting videos breaking into cabs and parts of trains with their keys. Some proceed to mess about, e.g. with the horn in the back cab. I saw one where somebody unlocked an out of use toilet - for all you know there could be a hole in the floor or a serious electrical fault in there!

Assuming there's no staff around, it would be very easy for someone to go and get in an older train, isolate the safety systems, and go speeding off into the distance - in fact I think there's been one or two cases over the years of this happening with shunters in depots.

The sooner we phase out master keys and t-keys, the better. Its a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[WirralLine]

In my teens I acquired various keys - I remember a stall at the East Lancs Diesel gala, probably around 2009, where I bought a master key for about £3. I never took them anywhere near railways though (after I'd got it home from the gala of course!) - they never left the house after that.

I've been asked multiple times in work if I've got a spare T Key for them. The answer is obviously always no and to stop asking. There are a couple in the Wrexham area who are notorious for asking and are quite well known in our depot, of course nobody ever says yes.

I think owning keys as collectables is not a problem at all, providing they are kept well away from the railway and are not used.

The question is, is this a new problem or is it just one we are more aware of due to social media. Back in BR days i'm sure it was the same, the only difference being there was no youtube or tiktok etc for the pesky youths to upload their footage to!

To the above comment about phasing out T keys etc for something more secure - I agree entirely. I won't say what class of train, but I once locked myself out the cab - leaving the T Key in there (doh!). We arrived at a station I managed to open the door control panel and activate it (both T Key locks) using a KABA key. I opened the doors then went to the driver to borrow his T key. Funnily enough the KABA key however wasn't able to pick the T Key lock on the cab door!

 

[thealexweb]

Some of the bin stores and some electrical panels at my non-rail work open with T-keys so we have dozens. Should rail be using such a common key for security areas?

 

[John Bishop]

Some of the bin stores and some electrical panels at my non-rail work open with T-keys so we have dozens. Should rail be using such a common key for security areas?

I think the answer to that is no. Something will happen one day that forces change. Until that happens however, it will just be ignored.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Increasingly cab doors seem not to use T keys, though some still do. It really should be phased out.

 

[jon0844]

Some of the bin stores and some electrical panels at my non-rail work open with T-keys so we have dozens. Should rail be using such a common key for security areas?

I thought they were the triangular meter keys?

 

[thealexweb]

I thought they were the triangular meter keys?

I have seen those too but we don’t have those.

 

[dosxuk]

I thought they were the triangular meter keys?

There are a variety of simple keys used for access panels, including the T-key (the square version is used literally everywhere - it's a common loft hatch key, the square with hole, less common, but still widely used).

Only the railway industry uses T-key's as a security lock, the rest of the world uses them simply as an alternative to a handle where one would be unsightly or inconvenient. This is not a "other people are getting hold of railway specific keys" issue, it's a "we're using handles where keys are needed" issue. You can operate the basic square T-key locks with any appropriately sized bit of metal - my housekey is the perfect size.

 

[Rail Quest]

I've never really seen much of an issue with people having master/T keys though I can see why people would.

People breaking in to cabs is not really something I hear very often (though that could be because I don't use Facebook or TikTok where I'm assuming a lot of these stories come from). TBH, those people who've used keys to access cabs are probably the type who'd still break the rules in some way, even without access to keys so I don't think enthusiast having these poses much additional risk.

 

[43066]

They aren’t illegal to obtain or possess, per se. But (it hopefully goes without saying, but just in case) using them in any way shape or form is an absolute no no. I’m aware of cases at my operator where guards have encountered people opening cupboards on trains in passenger service.

If I spotted someone with a T key on a train I was working I’d ask them what they are up to and, if they couldn’t prove they were off duty staff, they would be getting off to be honest.

 

[bleeder4]

Most industries, not just rail, have a standard set of master keys. I have a set of the Fire Brigade keys that I bought off Amazon. They open a number of doors in my block of flats, for example emergency back gate, water hydrant cupboard, electricity closet etc. With these keys I could probably make my way into the communal areas of most blocks of flats. I also have a key for disabled toilets, again that I bought off Amazon. That has already proven useful countless times when I've been somewhere and normal toilets are locked, yet I've been able to access the disabled ones with the key.

 

[signed]

Here we have the PTT (Postes, télégraphes et téléphones) key set for the mail man, they've been the same for decades. They are perfectly legal to own and use, and they open basically every front door of condos and every mailbox in the country (it's traditional keys, not a different shapes)

I have personally been impacted by a mailbox thief using those same keys to steal parcels off of mailboxes, and burglaries sometimes start by people entering using PTT keys.

The issue is not the fact that they are here, is that those master keys are all too easy to get.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are a variety of simple keys used for access panels, including the T-key (the square version is used literally everywhere - it's a common loft hatch key, the square with hole, less common, but still widely used).

Only the railway industry uses T-key's as a security lock, the rest of the world uses them simply as an alternative to a handle where one would be unsightly or inconvenient. This is not a "other people are getting hold of railway specific keys" issue, it's a "we're using handles where keys are needed" issue. You can operate the basic square T-key locks with any appropriately sized bit of metal - my housekey is the perfect size.

Yes, I've used my house key to open windows on a sweltering DOO 166 with failed aircon, to applause from others. I'd have happily stood up in Court to defend that if the railway wanted to be funny about it...

I would of course never use it to access anything else - but the railway really should prevent that by changing the key. Merseyrail's use of proximity cards/fobs for dispatch might be something to look at.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==

Most industries, not just rail, have a standard set of master keys. I have a set of the Fire Brigade keys that I bought off Amazon. They open a number of doors in my block of flats, for example emergency back gate, water hydrant cupboard, electricity closet etc. With these keys I could probably make my way into the communal areas of most blocks of flats. I also have a key for disabled toilets, again that I bought off Amazon. That has already proven useful countless times when I've been somewhere and normal toilets are locked, yet I've been able to access the disabled ones with the key.

The sale of RADAR disabled toilet keys is legit, they are not exclusive to disabled people (though if you do have a disability you get them VAT free). There are lots of reasons why one might be useful. They are really just a deterrent to casual vandalism, not to prevent anyone using a toilet.

 

[deltic]

Most industries, not just rail, have a standard set of master keys. I have a set of the Fire Brigade keys that I bought off Amazon. They open a number of doors in my block of flats, for example emergency back gate, water hydrant cupboard, electricity closet etc. With these keys I could probably make my way into the communal areas of most blocks of flats. I also have a key for disabled toilets, again that I bought off Amazon. That has already proven useful countless times when I've been somewhere and normal toilets are locked, yet I've been able to access the disabled ones with the key.

Fire brigade keys seem to be owned by every political leafleter and parcel delivery driver in our part of the world given the large number of council blocks. Private blocks of flats seem to use different locks.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Not illegal to possess but context is everything and could possibly fall under the category of 'going equipped' if found in the proximity of the live railway

 

[bramling]

I’ve recently come across a quite heated debate on social media on the subject of enthusiasts possessing master keys that have, presumably, been bought from eBay etc.

Interested to know views on this - my starting take on it is there isn’t any innate illegality in owning one?

The original poster of the video I saw was in a HST cab apparently at Crewe with their purchased master key ‘in’.

Their defence was that they were at the heritage centre and using the key they owned on an obviously non-operational train/loco.

They also claimed, “There’s a huge problem at the moment with enthusiasts owning keys and accessing cabs”. That’s a direct quote.

Is it just a case of yes they’ll come up for sale online sometimes but realistically but nothing is likely to happen?

Don’t really see a major issue with enthusiasts having keys. This has been going on for years, even before the likes of Ebay it was quite easy to get hold of such things.

Of course, what people do with keys is another matter entirely. Most people wouldn’t have an issue with someone unlocking a window on a DOO train when the air conditioning has failed, but clearly interfering with equipment or accessing non-public areas is a major no-no.

In practice this doesn’t seem to be a major problem. Indeed a generation ago on LU driver’s cabs weren’t even locked.

One day some kind of incident will probably happen and things will be tightened up.

 

[Carntyne]

It's weird, particularly when enthusiasts try to brag about having them while on my train.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

If I spotted someone with a T key on a train I was working I’d ask them what they are up to and, if they couldn’t prove they were off duty staff, they would be getting off to be honest.

Seems a bit harsh to be honest. Perhaps you meant if they didn’t have a valid reason for possessing one?

I can think of a number of people so would have one legitimately who aren’t employed in a rail capacity but may be on a train.

(My favourite T Key had a slotted screwdriver blade on one side of the T, and a philips on the other; I wish I knew where it has gone!)

 

[Lucy1501]

Of course, what people do with keys is another matter entirely. Most people wouldn’t have an issue with someone unlocking a window on a DOO train when the air conditioning has failed

Maybe so, but even if it seems harmless, how do you know it isn’t?

For all you know that window has restrictions against being opened because it’s broken and might fall off. And whilst it should have an out of use sign, what if it fell off or hasn’t been put up yet?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe so, but even if it seems harmless, how do you know it isn’t?

For all you know that window has restrictions against being opened because it’s broken and might fall off. And whilst it should have an out of use sign, what if it fell off or hasn’t been put up yet?

I fear you're going down the usual Forum rabbit hole and finding things that are almost never the case, and if they were the window would likely be visibly taped up, as a circular saying "168001 has a broken window in the third bay on the left in the middle coach, don't open it" would just be ignored or forgotten by most staff given that they would have far more important things to remember.

Meanwhile, the inside of the coach was well over thirty degrees which is a severe health hazard.

As I said, if the railway wanted to play its usual anti customer card and, instead of apologising profusely for its sending trains out in dangerous conditions, taking me to Court, I'd happily stand up and defend my actions. While there may be no option but to convict (as it would be a Byelaw that barely matters) I would be astonished were any punishment handed down in such circumstances.

 

[jfowkes]

After my bike got locked behind the door in a class 222 bike area, I seriously thought about getting hold of one.

If the railway is going to steal my bike, I'm going to carry something so I can steal it back!

(Then I moved away from the East Mids and it ceased to be a problem because other TOCs don't have idiotic stock that has bike storage in an area that can be locked.)

 

[zwk500]

I fear you're going down the usual Forum rabbit hole and finding things that are almost never the case, and if they were the window would likely be visibly taped up, as a circular saying "168001 has a broken window in the third bay on the left in the middle coach, don't open it" would just be ignored or forgotten by most staff given that they would have far more important things to remember.

Meanwhile, the inside of the coach was well over thirty degrees which is a severe health hazard.

While I sympathise with this a lot, the risks of a key getting into the wrong hands (or letting somebody get into a place they shouldn't) is a genuine concern and the situation outlined above has 3 relatively easy ways to be dealt with other than by simply letting safety lock keys be freely distributed. 1. The depot makes sure the AC is working, 2. Upon the AC breaking, the windows are unlocked by station, train or depot staff, 3. Upon the Train getting too hot, train or station staff to open the window. If this involves the driver of a DOO train delaying departure to do so, so be it.

However I think the sensible approach in this instance would be to have security-critical areas secured by something much better, and then to have windows secured by something easily operable by passengers should the need arise. As you rightly point out, if there's a safety issue the window would be taped off and marked as broken.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While I sympathise with this a lot, the risks of a key getting into the wrong hands (or letting somebody get into a place they shouldn't) is a genuine concern and the situation outlined above has 3 relatively easy ways to be dealt with other than by simply letting safety lock keys be freely distributed. 1. The depot makes sure the AC is working, 2. Upon the AC breaking, the windows are unlocked by station, train or depot staff, 3. Upon the Train getting too hot, train or station staff to open the window. If this involves the driver of a DOO train delaying departure to do so, so be it.

However I think the sensible approach in this instance would be to have security-critical areas secured by something much better, and then to have windows secured by something easily operable by passengers should the need arise. As you rightly point out, if there's a safety issue the window would be taped off and marked as broken.

Totally agree with all of this - the situation should not have arisen, and safety critical areas like cabs should be locked with something that is genuinely secure and able to be withdrawn, e.g. some sort of electronic lock.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==

After my bike got locked behind the door in a class 222 bike area, I seriously thought about getting hold of one.

If the railway is going to steal my bike, I'm going to carry something so I can steal it back!

(Then I moved away from the East Mids and it ceased to be a problem because other TOCs don't have idiotic stock that has bike storage in an area that can be locked.)

To be honest I'd favour a lockable area as that would make my bike secure. Surely it was just a matter of sticking your head out of the door and attracting the guard's attention to come and unlock it? Putting your foot in the door to prevent departure would soon get them there (as I've done for a forgotten disabled person requiring assistance before).

 

[jfowkes]

To be honest I'd favour a lockable area as that would make my bike secure. Surely it was just a matter of sticking your head out of the door and attracting the guard's attention to come and unlock it? Putting your foot in the door to prevent departure would soon get them there (as I've done for a forgotten disabled person requiring assistance before).

Yeah that's what I did, but it was stressful and embarrassing for me having to wave and shout down the platform and hold up the entire train.

(Plus the guard implied that it was my fault for not telling them where I wanted to get off, as if I knew to do that.
Whereas no-one told me the door would be locked - it certainly wasn't locked when I put my bike on.)

 

[12LDA28C]

While I sympathise with this a lot, the risks of a key getting into the wrong hands (or letting somebody get into a place they shouldn't) is a genuine concern and the situation outlined above has 3 relatively easy ways to be dealt with other than by simply letting safety lock keys be freely distributed. 1. The depot makes sure the AC is working, 2. Upon the AC breaking, the windows are unlocked by station, train or depot staff, 3. Upon the Train getting too hot, train or station staff to open the window. If this involves the driver of a DOO train delaying departure to do so, so be it.

This is all well and good, but dependent on staff being made aware of the issue which may not be the case, particularly on a DOO train unless someone actually complains to the driver.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I feel uncomfortable with people other than those that needthem having master keys. Safety would be my concern.

 

[Andrew1395]

Are 221 and 222 keys a thing of the past? I still have mine on my retired work key ring