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My daughter received a PFN and we appealed this and won and had to pay just the ticket cost, which we have done so. However, we have now received a letter in the post from Northern Debt Recovery and Prosecution Unit asking for written mitigation. Is this just a crossover between the appeal being accepted and Northern passing the information over to the Debt Recovery and Prosecution Unit or do I need to respond to this? I have attached all information below which should make the whole situation clearer. In the appeal I included proof of my daughter's ASD diagnosis.
Looking at the references numbers and times, there appear to be two separate things going on here (from Northern’s point of view anyway)
One is a penalty fare and the other is a TIR. You can identify that from the letters at the beginning of the references (although normally it’s best if these are covered up). The times are 15 minutes apart too
I suspect it’s an admin error rather than anything more worrying though
Looking at the references numbers and times, there appear to be two separate things going on here (from Northern’s point of view anyway)
One is a penalty fare and the other is a TIR. You can identify that from the letters at the beginning of the references (although normally it’s best if these are covered up). The times are 15 minutes apart too
I suspect it’s an admin error rather than anything more worrying though
Thank you for your response. Can you be issued a TIR as well as a PFN? Could this be two separate things or is the TIR in relation to the PFN? I am concerned about ignoring it if it needs to be answered, should I respond and attach all information I have as above? Sorry for all the questions just don't want to end up with my daughter being prosecuted.
Thank you for your response. Can you be issued a TIR as well as a PFN? Could this be two separate things or is the TIR in relation to the PFN? I am concerned about ignoring it if it needs to be answered, should I respond and attach all information I have as above? Sorry for all the questions just don't want to end up with my daughter being prosecuted.
I think it would be prudent to lay this to rest quickly. I suggest contacting them with the relevant PFN and Appeal references and confirming that the outstanding fares has been paid (I presume the blue screenshot shows this?).
It seems very odd to issue a TIR after a PFN and I wonder if this relates to a different person and there has been an error there.
Thank you for your response. Can you be issued a TIR as well as a PFN? Could this be two separate things or is the TIR in relation to the PFN? I am concerned about ignoring it if it needs to be answered, should I respond and attach all information I have as above? Sorry for all the questions just don't want to end up with my daughter being prosecuted.
I think you are right not to ignore it. I guess do all communication in writing and keep copies. Keep an eye on thread for eg 24 hours to see what advice comes.
Feel free to post any drafts of what you might say to them so people can check those for you before you send them in.
I think it would be prudent to lay this to rest quickly. I suggest contacting them with the relevant PFN and Appeal references and confirming that the outstanding fares has been paid (I presume the blue screenshot shows this?).
It seems very odd to issue a TIR after a PFN and I wonder if this relates to a different person and there has been an error there.
Yes, the blue screen shot is when I put the reference number in and incident date and time, which is what I had to do to make the payment, so I was checking it was done and it states already paid so must have gone through. It's confusing me with having different times. Could the ticket inspector have issued a TIR (I don't even know what that stands for) after issuing a PFN, would this be usual practice, or are they the same thing? Thank you.
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I think it would be prudent to lay this to rest quickly. I suggest contacting them with the relevant PFN and Appeal references and confirming that the outstanding fares has been paid (I presume the blue screenshot shows this?).
It seems very odd to issue a TIR after a PFN and I wonder if this relates to a different person and there has been an error there.
The child my daughter was travelling with is not 16 yet (my daughter had recently turned 16), so she also had a child ticket, but when she provided her dob the ticket inspector said that she would need to provide proof of her ID and said they'd write to her. I'm wondering if maybe the ticket inspector has sent my daughter's details instead of her friends in error. It's not clear in the letter received what they are asking you to respond to.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I think it would be prudent to lay this to rest quickly. I suggest contacting them with the relevant PFN and Appeal references and confirming that the outstanding fares has been paid (I presume the blue screenshot shows this?).
It seems very odd to issue a TIR after a PFN and I wonder if this relates to a different person and there has been an error there.
Yes, the blue screen shot is when I put the reference number in and incident date and time, which is what I had to do to make the payment, so I was checking it was done and it states already paid so must have gone through. It's confusing me with having different times. Could the ticket inspector have issued a TIR (I don't even know what that stands for) after issuing a PFN, would this be usual practice, or are they the same thing? Thank you.
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The child my daughter was travelling with is not 16 yet (my daughter had recently turned 16), so she also had a child ticket, but when she provided her dob the ticket inspector said that she would need to provide proof of her ID and said they'd write to her. I'm wondering if maybe the ticket inspector has sent my daughter's details instead of her friends in error. It's not clear in the letter received what they are asking you to respond to.
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They use it for people whose ticket issues warrant further back office investigation. Tends to result in more costly outcome, or worse, than getting a Penalty Fare and it’s often the pathway to prosecution which is why it’s best not to ignore anything you have got.
I don’t think they would issue a penalty fare and then do a TIR as well but I may be wrong on that. Don’t seem to hear of that on this forum. EDIT- I now note important point made by Hadders in post below about possible subsequent investigations.
Ref any mix up I’d be checking with daughter’s friend if she has been contacted. Important for them to send the proof of being under 16 I suspect.
I agree with what others have said. Do not ignore this but send a brief reply to Northern telling them that the Penalty Fare issued on the day of the incident has been successfully appealed. Enclose a copy of the screen short showing that you've paid the outstanding fare.
Does your daughter purchase tickets online? If so has she purchased child tickets since she turned 16? It is possible that because your daughter has come to Northern's attention they have researched your daughters online ticket purchasing history and the letter you've been sent relates to this. We have seen this sort of behaviour from some train conpanies, notably West Midlands Trains.
I have sent the following in response to the TIR and attached all information as above:
I am writing to advise of the situation that arose regarding the PFN issued to my 16 year old daughter who is diagnosed with ASD.
The remaining balance of the PFN has been paid after the appeal was accepted.
My daughter struggles with social communication and this situation caused her great distress. She now has a disability rail card and is aware to specifically request an adult ticket.
Hopefully that will be the end of it. Although I'm still confused as to why there are different times on the PFN and TIR Thank you for all the responses.
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I agree with what others have said. Do not ignore this but send a brief reply to Northern telling them that the Penalty Fare issued on the day of the incident has been successfully appealed. Enclose a copy of the screen short showing that you've paid the outstanding fare.
Does your daughter purchase tickets online? If so has she purchased child tickets since she turned 16? It is possible that because your daughter has come to Northern's attention they have researched your daughters online ticket purchasing history and the letter you've been sent relates to this. We have seen this sort of behaviour from some train conpanies, notably West Midlands Trai
I agree with what others have said. Do not ignore this but send a brief reply to Northern telling them that the Penalty Fare issued on the day of the incident has been successfully appealed. Enclose a copy of the screen short showing that you've paid the outstanding fare.
Does your daughter purchase tickets online? If so has she purchased child tickets since she turned 16? It is possible that because your daughter has come to Northern's attention they have researched your daughters online ticket purchasing history and the letter you've been sent relates to this. We have seen this sort of behaviour from some train conpanies, notably West Midlands Trains.
It was her first time on the train so no previous tickets purchased, hence why I've only just got her a disability rail card. We didn't know if she'd be able to do the journey or not but is hoping to start the academy in September so it was a trial run to see how it went. I didn't think to tell her to ask specifically for an adult ticket as I assumed they'd provide her with the correct one at the ticket desk, but she knows now and definitely won't make the same mistake again. To be honest, as I hardly ever use a train I didn't know that 16 was classed as an adult I would have thought 18, so I've learnt something new.
They use it for people whose ticket issues warrant further back office investigation. Tends to result in more costly outcome, or worse, than getting a Penalty Fare and it’s often the pathway to prosecution which is why it’s best not to ignore anything you have got.
I don’t think they would issue a penalty fare and then do a TIR as well but I may be wrong on that. Don’t seem to hear of that on this forum. EDIT- I now note important point made by Hadders in post below about possible subsequent investigations.
Ref any mix up I’d be checking with daughter’s friend if she has been contacted. Important for them to send the proof of being under 16 I suspect.
My daughter's friend hasn't received anything as yet through the post. It's so frustrating as the letter doesn't state the reason for sending it, so I have replied regarding my daughter's situation but it may not even be regarding her. I tried to contact them on the number provided on the letter and it just tells you to answer the letter... head against a brick wall comes to mind.
My daughter's friend hasn't received anything as yet through the post. It's so frustrating as the letter doesn't state the reason for sending it, so I have replied regarding my daughter's situation but it may not even be regarding her. I tried to contact them on the number provided on the letter and it just tells you to answer the letter... head against a brick wall comes to mind.
UPDATE: I've received an email in my response to the email I sent to DRPU and they have said that they confirm this matter is now closed and no further action is required.
I'm obviously glad about that but still have no idea why a TIR was issued after issuing my daughter with a PFN. I'm guessing by their response it was most likely an error by the train inspector.
Thank you to everyone that responded and offered their help.
UPDATE: I've received an email in my response to the email I sent to DRPU and they have said that they confirm this matter is now closed and no further action is required.
I'm obviously glad about that but still have no idea why a TIR was issued after issuing my daughter with a PFN. I'm guessing by their response it was most likely an error by the train inspector.
Thank you to everyone that responded and offered their help.
Needless to say keep all records of this and their e-mail reply safe for some time in case anything else emerges.
Also check all the T&Cs for the Disabled Railcard that your daughter now has as it confers various benefits that are more generous than other Railcards (including discount for a person to travel with her if there are occasions when she is accompanied by someone), use at wider periods of the day than other Railcards and I think exemptions from being required to use a ticket machine at a station if nature of disability might mean she is unable to easily use such a machine. This can be a valuable benefit given how much of a faff some people (well me at least!) find using Northern's ticket vending machines.
Very good luck to her for the future and hopefully her train use and Railcard etc will give her a bit of travel independence that so many people can take for granted.
