800/802s running on engines even under wires

[sleepinglion]

Sorry if it's a stupid question but it's been bugging me a bit. I travel from South Wales to London occasionally, and the last few times they have not been switching onto electric at Cardiff. It's not consistent,
I'm sat at Paddington ATM on an 2x800 and pantographs are down on all of them with the characteristic diesel chug, there's a 802 on the next platform with pan up, three have pulled in, mix of 800 and 802 of 5 or 9 car length, 2 pan down, 1 up.
Are there issues with loading or is it because it's got weather? Really fascinated.

 

[louis97]

Likely sets with a diesel only restriction, today there are a couple sets restricted. Note this restriction also covers anything attached to the restricted set.

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I assume you're on the 1548 to Swansea, that has a diesel restricted set on it.

 

[Gostav]

Some time l also found TPE 802 used diesel under wires in Bolton and Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Some time l also found TPE 802 used diesel under wires in Bolton and Manchester Piccadilly.

802s have only recently been authorised to use the wires between Bolton and Picc

 

[driver9000]

Some time l also found TPE 802 used diesel under wires in Bolton and Manchester Piccadilly.

TPE were running 802s northbound from Manchester Airport to Preston in diesel mode but this restriction has been lifted.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

There’s been a few with diesel only restrictions lately, quite often annoyingly these units have been know to have an engine out as well. There’s one running around today with 100mph speed restriction and a pantograph isolated.

 

[randyrippley]

That begs the question.......have these sets got maintenance issues?

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Why do said diesel only restrictions exist though?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Why do said diesel only restrictions exist though?

There'll be something wrong with some part of the electrics. Or parts cannibalised to keep other trains going

 

[MerlinRail 804]

There'll be something wrong with some part of the electrics. Or parts cannibalised to keep other trains going

That’s not a very good situation to be in

 

[Thechopperguy]

There's either an issue with the set or, somewhere on the route is a BTET (block to electric traction). If one of these is on, sometimes the 387 Cardiff - Paddington services don't run and the 800s normally run on diesel

 

[dk1]

Why do said diesel only restrictions exist though?

Often just a pantograph issue. We get it now and again with 755s. They just try to keep them on all diesel diagrams but that’s not always possible.

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That’s not a very good situation to be in

I think the most important thing is that it saves a cancellation. As long as the service runs it doesn’t matter if it’s on diesel to the passengers.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Never even knew this could be a thing. At least they’re bi-modes

 

[MotCO]

Do Hitachi get penalised for not supplying electric traction units, or because the unit is available, is a penalty not applicable? (I assume they are part of the IET project)

 

[Clarence Yard]

Yes, there is a penalty regime for turning out units in less than perfect condition.

In this case the unit has an odd fault in that there is an emergency brake application every time it tries to traction change over. Fail safe but rather annoying! Hitachi need to give it a further technical investigation so it has to be booked in at the right depot at the right time when suitable space is available and a suitably qualified member of staff can look at it. In the meantime it will run around on diesel.

Hitachi don’t cannibalise and send units out incomplete. Most diesel only restrictions on the WR are for reasons of technical investigation or they are waiting shed time/replacement components. Hitachi run a highly structured repairs regime where anything significant that cannot be fixed immediately (and doesn’t stop the set) gets booked in for a future date.

A 100mph restriction is usually to do with rough riding reports - they tend to get called in for investigation and remedial work very quickly - tyre turning or damper replacement being common repairs. The one that was referred to up thread is currently stopped for attention.

 

[800301]

We don’t run them on diesel for fun, trust me, as mentioned above it’s normally either due to a fault, awaiting inspection/remedial work that’s booked in or because of a BTEC, I think North Pole had one the other night, any opportunity to run on electric and we’d rather take it

 

[Surreytraveller]

Never even knew this could be a thing. At least they’re bi-modes

Same with dual electric trains. Can be AC or DC only

 

[sleepinglion]

Fascinating, id always cursed the government for messing the GWML electrification to the point of needing so many bi-modes compared to electric only (I think they ended up with zero 801's?), but I'm guessing it's got to be one of the most resilient and available units out there with the ability to run without panto and with an engine down.

I do recall when they first came in my experience of them was that they struggled to keep to time between Cardiff and Swansea if an engine was down, but I'd rather a late train than a cancelled one

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

A 100mph restriction is usually to do with rough riding reports - they tend to get called in for investigation and remedial work very quickly - tyre turning or damper replacement being common repairs. The one that was referred to up thread is currently stopped for attention.

Out of curiosity, how is a rough riding report verified? As it’s such a subjective topic (like turbulence on aircraft), one person’s ‘rough riding is another person’s ’light chop’. Do Hitachi send someone experienced out to ride the set and clarify whether it justifies a maintenance intervention? (The state of parts of the GWML won’t be helping matters - a heavy bump through wet beds doesn’t mean the set is defective.)

 

[FGW_DID]

Out of curiosity, how is a rough riding report verified? As it’s such a subjective topic (like turbulence on aircraft), one person’s ‘rough riding is another person’s ’light chop’. Do Hitachi send someone experienced out to ride the set and clarify whether it justifies a maintenance intervention? (The state of parts of the GWML won’t be helping matters - a heavy bump through wet beds doesn’t mean the set is defective.)

Hitachi has TRIs (Traction Riding Inspectors?) so I imagine they would ride the set.
Same with our Turbos and 387s, after a rough ride report, a fitter will be booked to ride the set in traffic as it will be unlikely to replicate the fault on depot.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Hitachi has TRIs (Traction Riding Inspectors?) so I imagine they would ride the set.
Same with our Turbos and 387s, after a rough ride report, a fitter will be booked to ride the set in traffic as it will be unlikely to replicate the fault on depot.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[vicbury]

Hitachi has TRIs (Traction Riding Inspectors?) so I imagine they would ride the set.
Same with our Turbos and 387s, after a rough ride report, a fitter will be booked to ride the set in traffic as it will be unlikely to replicate the fault on depot.

Wow that's quite unscientifc. I would have thought that modern trains would have motion / g-force sensors that could log unusual movement automatically.

 

[Class 170101]

Can also be an electric only restriction as well.

 

[800301]

Wow that's quite unscientifc. I would have thought that modern trains would have motion / g-force sensors that could log unusual movement automatically.

I’m pretty sure the 800’s do but it’s something that can only be reviewed by Hitachi after the unit is in for maintenance, having someone on the train that knows exactly how it should ride is a pretty good way to find out if something is wrong.

 

[vicbury]

I’m pretty sure the 800’s do but it’s something that can only be reviewed by Hitachi after the unit is in for maintenance, having someone on the train that knows exactly how it should ride is a pretty good way to find out if something is wrong.

Thanks, that makes sense

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Out of curiosity, how is a rough riding report verified? As it’s such a subjective topic (like turbulence on aircraft), one person’s ‘rough riding is another person’s ’light chop’.

On IETs I've found it's pretty binary, to be honest - there's an "it really shouldn't be doing that" effect that I've never experienced on any other train, but have had three or four times now on an IET. I always report it to the conductor when it happens... whether or not the report goes any further, who knows.

 

[dk1]

On IETs I've found it's pretty binary, to be honest - there's an "it really shouldn't be doing that" effect that I've never experienced on any other train, but have had three or four times now on an IET. I always report it to the conductor when it happens... whether or not the report goes any further, who knows.

The riding of some HSTs across the Berks & Hants used to be truly awful at times. Was as expected so I’d never think to report it to anyone.

 

[Taunton]

The riding of some HSTs across the Berks & Hants used to be truly awful at times. Was as expected so I’d never think to report it to anyone.

You should have been on the front end of Warships coming down from Pewsey to Newbury!

The alignment is simplistically a 1900-era upgraded branch line, the old route from Newbury to Devizes and Trowbridge. It is a series of swinging reverse curves, in part following the path of the canal alongside. It is also a steady descent (note the locks on that canal). Some superelevation and transition curves might help higher speeds, but would be counter-productive for the heavy stone trains, rubbing against the low rail. So a compromise.

 

[dk1]

You should have been on the front end of Warships coming down from Pewsey to Newbury!

I could only dream of that mate.

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Riding in the centre car of a 101 or 104 across the East Suffolk especially when the drivers were speeding was something to behold.

 

[Railperf]

I could only dream of that mate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2024 ==

Riding in the centre car of a 101 or 104 across the East Suffolk especially when the drivers were speeding was something to behold.

More recently the 360's used to jump around a bit on the embankments between Shenfield and Chelmsfiord. The ride was lively in places.