ScotRail cancelling services July 2024

[chuff chuff]

Sounds like a typical Catch-22.

The unions were not allowed to divulge any details of the talks on Thursday to their members on the insistence of transport scotland even though they say pay negotiations have nothing to do with them.

 

[Davester50]

Would be nice to get a train leaving Edinburgh to north of the Tay after 21:30 again, let alone 19:30 past Dundee.
The Fringe is a no-go for me this year by train.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Would be nice to get a train leaving Edinburgh to north of the Tay after 21:30 again, let alone 19:30 past Dundee.
The Fringe is a no-go for me this year by train.

I presume you’re specifically talking about ScotRail? As LNER have a 20:31 on weekdays.

 

[Scotrail84]

Another such appointment is Hannah Ross, who has been appointed chief executive to Scottish Rail holdings. Previously of Edinburgh City council no railway experience whatsoever.

This is becoming common place amongst certain TOCs and it definitely shows. Lack of experience higher up always ends badly.

 

[snookertam]

This is becoming common place amongst certain TOCs and it definitely shows. Lack of experience higher up always ends badly.

I think this is based on a belief that management is actually a niche in itself. As in, you could be parachuted into whatever industry and your management skills would see you through. The people who subscribe to this theory would see no reason as to why the railway was different. They may be correct to en extent, but the railway is a pretty unique place which has far different challenges to other industries and workplaces. The major problem here is that they are less likely to listen to those who do have experience.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==

So correct me if I’m wrong. You think the HST’s were an experiment designed to please middle aged enthusiasts? What a lot of nonsense.

The rumour is someone at transport Scotland was a train spotter and thought the idea of HSTs running up and down the country was a great idea, and forced the project to be persisted with even when it was on its backside. The First Group proposal to keep the 170s and run them as six cars with extended platforms where required between Aberdeen/Inverness and the central belt was far, far more sensible, it accounted for the existing familiarity with the fleet among traincrew and depots, and would not have cost anything like what the HSTs have. If we want to talk about how loss making ScotRail is, let’s not forget the role the HST introduction has played in that. It’s difficult to think of a worse decision on any railway anywhere, than to bring in second hand HSTs onto long distance routes in Scotland. It’s also a good example of the havoc that can be caused by senior decision makers with no railway or transport experience.

 

[380101]

The unions were not allowed to divulge any details of the talks on Thursday to their members on the insistence of transport scotland even though they say pay negotiations have nothing to do with them.

Never stopped the RMT official sending a text message on Thursday to all their members detailing the even worse deal tabled that was rejected. Also an article in the Scotsman today referencing the "higher" offer.

 

[chuff chuff]

Never stopped the RMT official sending a text message on Thursday to all their members detailing the even worse deal tabled that was rejected. Also an article in the Scotsman today referencing the "higher" offer.

Yeah it was mentioned that someone blabbed but it didn't come from aslef.You can see why TS didn't want that offer to get out.

 

[Starmill]

Never stopped the RMT official sending a text message on Thursday to all their members detailing the even worse deal tabled that was rejected. Also an article in the Scotsman today referencing the "higher" offer.

In the interest of giving other forum members more context here:

ScotRail strike breakthrough hope as staff offered higher pay in new deal

ScotRail staff balloting for industrial action over pay have been offered a higher increase this year in an apparent attempt to avert strikes, The Scotsman has learned.

www.scotsman.com

ScotRail staff balloting for industrial action over pay have been offered a higher increase this year in an apparent attempt to avert strikes, The Scotsman has learned.

However, the new offer is also believed to involve a smaller rise during the remaining years of the proposed three-year wage deal, according to industry sources.

Fresh talks between the Scottish Government-owned train operator and its four unions on Thursday were described as "constructive" by both sides and will resume this coming Thursday.

It is understood the new offer would amount to some 8.5 per cent over three years, comprising 3.5 per cent from April this year and 2.5 per cent in both 2025 and 2026. This compares to the previous of some 9.3 per cent offer over three years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==

Never stopped the RMT official sending a text message on Thursday to all their members detailing the even worse deal tabled that was rejected. Also an article in the Scotsman today referencing the "higher" offer.

Worse is up for debate. Technically with a baseline of anticipated inflation it could be very slightly better in real terms. However, you're of course totally correct there's not much difference.

 

[Scotrail84]

I think this is based on a belief that management is actually a niche in itself. As in, you could be parachuted into whatever industry and your management skills would see you through. The people who subscribe to this theory would see no reason as to why the railway was different. They may be correct to en extent, but the railway is a pretty unique place which has far different challenges to other industries and workplaces. The major problem here is that they are less likely to listen to those who do have experience.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==



The rumour is someone at transport Scotland was a train spotter and thought the idea of HSTs running up and down the country was a great idea, and forced the project to be persisted with even when it was on its backside. The First Group proposal to keep the 170s and run them as six cars with extended platforms where required between Aberdeen/Inverness and the central belt was far, far more sensible, it accounted for the existing familiarity with the fleet among traincrew and depots, and would not have cost anything like what the HSTs have. If we want to talk about how loss making ScotRail is, let’s not forget the role the HST introduction has played in that. It’s difficult to think of a worse decision on any railway anywhere, than to bring in second hand HSTs onto long distance routes in Scotland. It’s also a good example of the havoc that can be caused by senior decision makers with no railway or transport experience.

I'm not sure I believe that about a train spotter forcing a pretty doomed to fail project through.

I would suggest the Sleeper MK5 stock as being up there with one of the worst decisions given that they were absolutely plagued with issues even prior to introduction, they were not ready to be introduced and to this this day still continue to perform dreadfully on a weekly basis with faults from 5 years ago still not resolved.

I've never known management in TOCs to be employed externally from other industries until fairly recently. 10-20 years ago that just didn't happen, and for good reason. Not experience. Now we have guards managers who have never been guards and managers managing drivers who have never even been in the cab of a train. It's absolutely ridiculous when you think about it. It's like taking someone who has worked all their days as a plumber running their own plumbing business and giving them a job managing an airlines entire fleet of cabin crew. It doesn't make sense!

 

[Starmill]

The rumour is someone at transport Scotland was a train spotter and thought the idea of HSTs running up and down the country was a great idea, and forced the project to be persisted with even when it was on its backside. The First Group proposal to keep the 170s and run them as six cars with extended platforms where required between Aberdeen/Inverness and the central belt was far, far more sensible, it accounted for the existing familiarity with the fleet among traincrew and depots, and would not have cost anything like what the HSTs have. If we want to talk about how loss making ScotRail is, let’s not forget the role the HST introduction has played in that. It’s difficult to think of a worse decision on any railway anywhere, than to bring in second hand HSTs onto long distance routes in Scotland. It’s also a good example of the havoc that can be caused by senior decision makers with no railway or transport experience.

The rolling stock strategy at SWR has probably been slightly worse than ScotRail because it also features many old train types brought up to mechanical spec at vast expense. The 450 and 444 fleets are modern and efficient but really the rest is a bit of a disaster. No diesel replacement, vast waste with the 442s, vast cost in 701s, two re-conditionings of 458s, 456s refurbished then only used for four years, 455s re-tractioned then only used for six years, 707s newly-procured then exited after five years and so on.

 

[northscots]

In the interest of giving other forum members more context here:

ScotRail strike breakthrough hope as staff offered higher pay in new deal

ScotRail staff balloting for industrial action over pay have been offered a higher increase this year in an apparent attempt to avert strikes, The Scotsman has learned.

www.scotsman.com

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==


Worse is up for debate. Technically with a baseline of anticipated inflation it could be very slightly better in real terms. However, you're of course totally correct there's not much difference.

Neither ASLEF or RMT will accept a multi year deal that isn't linked to RPI/inflation.

 

[chuff chuff]

Neither ASLEF or RMT will accept a multi year deal that isn't linked to RPI/infinflation

I should hope not.

 

[SC318250]

Would a multi deal be accepted where an agreement for this year, with say a 2% for next 2 years, but if inflation is greater than 2% then it would be changed to that % ?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Would a multi deal be accepted where an agreement for this year, with say a 2% for next 2 years, but if inflation is greater than 2% then it would be changed to that % ?

I don’t think the unions will settle for any less than a firm, above inflation offer.

What seems likely is a deal for this year and then a kick the can down the road approach by dealing with next year later.

 

[northscots]

I don’t think the unions will settle for any less than a firm, above inflation offer.

What seems likely is a deal for this year and then a kick the can down the road approach by dealing with next year later.

I'd be surprised if that happens. Transport Scotland seem keen on a multi year deal. That gets us past the next Scottish Election so they can avoid SNP running the railway into the ground stories

 

[Davester50]

I presume you’re specifically talking about ScotRail? As LNER have a 20:31 on weekdays.

Yes. And it's still before the 21:30 to Dundee, so not exactly useful for anything late at the Fringe. Unless it's running late!

 

[SC318250]

Would a multi deal be accepted where an agreement for this year, with say a 2% for next 2 years, but if inflation is greater than 2% then it would be changed to that % ?

I don’t think the unions will settle for any less than a firm, above inflation offer.

What seems likely is a deal for this year and then a kick the can down the road approach by dealing with next year later.

I think that would be the best option. Then again as mentioned dont think SNP will want a dispute at election time.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I'd be surprised if that happens. Transport Scotland seem keen on a multi year deal. That gets us past the next Scottish Election so they can avoid SNP running the railway into the ground stories

Keen they may be, but unless they’re going to go far above and beyond where they’re at just now, they’ve got no chance of a deal. Really it’d need to be about a 6% increase for each year if other pay deals are comparable. Certainly this is going to take a bit of time to reach a conclusion either way.

Conveniently in that scenario there could see a 3 year deal covering up to the 2026 pay award. Personally I can’t see that being likely. If the unions end up wanting more; I have no idea what they actually want, then that’s when I think they might just give up and focus on the one year and go for the alternative political solution, by going big right before the 2026 election.

 

[Number5]

The Sunday Borders temporary timetable on Scotrail's website has an hourly service from Tweedbank starting at 0848.
If you try to plan a journey today using, for example, the NRE app, the next one after the 0848 is the 1347.
I understand they may be unable to run the ones in between due to lack of drivers, but they're not shown as cancellations on Journeycheck.
Surely this is going to end up with punters turning up expecting a train that isn't going to turn up?

 

[GordonT]

The Sunday Borders temporary timetable on Scotrail's website has an hourly service from Tweedbank starting at 0848.
If you try to plan a journey today using, for example, the NRE app, the next one after the 0848 is the 1347.
I understand they may be unable to run the ones in between due to lack of drivers, but they're not shown as cancellations on Journeycheck.
Surely this is going to end up with punters turning up expecting a train that isn't going to turn up?

And as I imagined would happen there was adverse discussion on social media in the wake of Friday evening's cancellation of the 1716 ex Edinburgh-Tweedbank and running a 2-car instead of a 3-car on the 1741 ex Edinburgh-Tweedbank. ScotRail in fairness provided a bus/coach to relieve the 1741 departure but folk were posting about arriving home nearly 2 hours later than normal by comparison to the 1716.

 

[Carntyne]

The Sunday Borders temporary timetable on Scotrail's website has an hourly service from Tweedbank starting at 0848.
If you try to plan a journey today using, for example, the NRE app, the next one after the 0848 is the 1347.
I understand they may be unable to run the ones in between due to lack of drivers, but they're not shown as cancellations on Journeycheck.
Surely this is going to end up with punters turning up expecting a train that isn't going to turn up?

They're not shown on JourneyCheck as ScotRail have deleted them out the timetable system. Performance figures look great despite no trains running for the public.

 

[Bill57p9]

I presume you’re specifically talking about ScotRail? As LNER have a 20:31 on weekdays.

And of course the LNER 2031 option is not in the emergency timetable as it isn't a ScotRail service.
(I do appreciate that it will appear in journey planners)

 

[ld0595]

Another Sunday and another bunch of last minute cancellations between Aberdeen and Glasgow. But not really cancellations because they made a last minute adjustment to the timetable.

And then after a 4 hour gap between 1:30 and 5:45, they've scheduled another 3 car Turbostar.

This is after we travelled up to Aberdeen on Thursday night and got chucked off at Perth because of a signalling fault.

6 hours to get from the south of Glasgow to Aberdeen versus 3 if we drove. Won't be making that mistake again...

 

[InvHst]

I think this is based on a belief that management is actually a niche in itself. As in, you could be parachuted into whatever industry and your management skills would see you through. The people who subscribe to this theory would see no reason as to why the railway was different. They may be correct to en extent, but the railway is a pretty unique place which has far different challenges to other industries and workplaces. The major problem here is that they are less likely to listen to those who do have experience.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==



The rumour is someone at transport Scotland was a train spotter and thought the idea of HSTs running up and down the country was a great idea, and forced the project to be persisted with even when it was on its backside. The First Group proposal to keep the 170s and run them as six cars with extended platforms where required between Aberdeen/Inverness and the central belt was far, far more sensible, it accounted for the existing familiarity with the fleet among traincrew and depots, and would not have cost anything like what the HSTs have. If we want to talk about how loss making ScotRail is, let’s not forget the role the HST introduction has played in that. It’s difficult to think of a worse decision on any railway anywhere, than to bring in second hand HSTs onto long distance routes in Scotland. It’s also a good example of the havoc that can be caused by senior decision makers with no railway or transport experience.

6 car 170s? Jeez thank goodness that didn't happen 170s are not suitable in any capacity for central belt to Inverness and Aberdeen there luggage storage is awful

 

[Scotrail84]

6 car 170s? Jeez thank goodness that didn't happen 170s are not suitable in any capacity for central belt to Inverness and Aberdeen there luggage storage is awful

A 6 car 170 is more that capable of handling an Inverness or Aberdeen service capacity and luggage wise, the main issue is short platforms at Dalwhinnie Southbound and Newtonmore. As well as Portlethen on Aberdeen route.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

A 6 car 170 is more that capable of handling an Inverness or Aberdeen service capacity and luggage wise

I would question whether it could as well. They’ve got poor space for big bags, not much better than an 800 when new did.

 

[InOban]

At least you have some trains. There are none at all from Oban today, and with the coaches full, people are having to hire taxis.

On the matter of pay increases, inflation is only 2%, private sector increases are falling, and there is no reason why Scotrail should offer more to railway staff than the Council's offer to their employees. The public sector is broke, unless Westminster, in settling increases down South, provide more cash to Scotland.

 

[eoff]

Seems Scotrail are running extra services for the festival despite a temporary timetable. Just watched a Phil Campbell from ScotRail talking on Reporting Scotland:

"We have worked hard to put in additional services to that, to support customers heading to and from Edinburgh. For example there's a 0015 service from monday through to saturday that will get people back from Edniburgh to Glasgow. There's some late night services on the Berwick route. However services will be busy so we'll be asking customers, plan your journey well in advance."

 

[Devon Sunset]

Yes, extra late night services but a 1 hour later start this morning as well as 2 three hour gaps throughout the day. You can see where the priorities lie. I’m guessing they have been told to make sure the late festival services run. Meanwhile Tweedbanks and North Berwick’s are the low hanging fruit.

 

[Davester50]

Last train from Edinburgh to Dundee tonight is in 4 minutes time at 18:35 and it says it's sold out on the ScotRail webpage!