Is Stratford upon Avon destined to remain as poorly connected as it is currently?

[MarkyT]

Another issue is it isn't really all that far from the existing station to the old town / Shakespeare areas in the first place, and it's pretty much a straight line walk as well. Any new alignment anywhere in the area isn't going to really be worth doing.

The often suggested Honeybourne link on the existing trackbed is very likely the most efficient way there is of expanding service options and connectivity.

But how can the road and major roundabout on the trackbed problem be solved? It's not a minor residential or industrial access that could be diverted easily, its an A-class south inner bypass road that diverts much through traffic away from the town centre.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

But how can the road and major roundabout on the trackbed problem be solved? It's not a minor residential or industrial access that could be diverted easily, its an A-class south inner bypass road that diverts much through traffic away from the town centre.

How have they proposed to deal with this in the various re-opening proposals over the years?

Presumably its far enough away from the station that they could lower the trackbed to get under it without a major rebuilding?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The Seven Meadows Road problem has been extensively debated at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/cheltenham-spa-stratford-line.220130/ and https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...to-honeybourne-link-to-be-re-instated.111797/ inter alia.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Thank you; I'll have a look at those later.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd go for a new south station, not on the old formation, but on a 2.6km extension from south of the old river bridge, along the east bank of the river to a site next to the recreation ground, just short walk over the bridge or take the chain ferry from the Royal Shakespeare:

Right in the middle of the Avon floodplain…

How have they proposed to deal with this in the various re-opening proposals over the years?

With magic.

Presumably its far enough away from the station that they could lower the trackbed to get under it without a major rebuilding?

Nope.

 

[MarkyT]

Right in the middle of the Avon floodplain…

I guess the alignment could be raised on suitable earthworks and structures at great expense...(cue cries of the 'Great Wall of Stratford'). I understand the very idea of using the site would be controversial in the first place, and now there's a new marina in the way.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Right in the middle of the Avon floodplain…




With magic.



Nope.

What do you think of the western curve around Stratford away from the original alignment, joining the line near S-o-A Parkway?

 

[The Planner]

What do you think of the western curve around Stratford away from the original alignment, joining the line near S-o-A Parkway?

How is Stratford going to be served, with a reversal at Honeybourne or is it using the avoider? Oxford to Honeybourne is 44 minutes, add on 4 for a reversal then a good 15 minutes to get to Stratford itself, so about 65 minutes. Its a lot of railway to save on an Oxford Stratford journey, especially considering it would point the wrong way if there is any aspiration to serve Birmingham as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

What do you think of the western curve around Stratford away from the original alignment, joining the line near S-o-A Parkway?

I think it’s completely pointless.

 

[MarkyT]

How is Stratford going to be served, with a reversal at Honeybourne or is it using the avoider? Oxford to Honeybourne is 44 minutes, add on 4 for a reversal then a good 15 minutes to get to Stratford itself, so about 65 minutes. Its a lot of railway to save on an Oxford Stratford journey, especially considering it would point the wrong way if there is any aspiration to serve Birmingham as well.

So little if any time saving compared to going via Leamington. I don't see the point of running Stratford trains through to Birmingham via any route. There are already faster trains between Birmingham and the Thames Valley and local trains between Stratford and Brum.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2024 ==

I think it’s completely pointless.

Apart from the junction turnouts!

 

[AlastairFraser]

How is Stratford going to be served, with a reversal at Honeybourne or is it using the avoider? Oxford to Honeybourne is 44 minutes, add on 4 for a reversal then a good 15 minutes to get to Stratford itself, so about 65 minutes. Its a lot of railway to save on an Oxford Stratford journey, especially considering it would point the wrong way if there is any aspiration to serve Birmingham as well.

Stratford would be served by the London-Oxford-Stratford service, using a southerly curve to head into Stratford Parkway, then Stratford's central station (with a northerly curve as well permitting through Birmingham services).
For around 10 miles of new railway on mostly existing alignment (and indeed about 2.5 miles of that is extant railway around Long Marston).

I think it’s completely pointless.

Fair enough

So little if any time saving compared to going via Leamington. I don't see the point of running Stratford trains through to Birmingham via any route. There are already faster trains between Birmingham and the Thames Valley and local trains between Stratford and Brum.

The additional benefit (on top of running trains to Stratford from the south) would be relief of the northern Cherwell Valley line and the Leamington to Coventry Line in the long term, plus XC services in the short term.

 

[Russel]

How much use do the Stratford - Lemington services get as it is at the moment?

 

[A S Leib]

How much use do the Stratford - Lemington services get as it is at the moment?

There's 49 journeys per day from Stratford to Leamington and 14 to Warwick, and 68 to Marylebone.

 

[Energy]

There's 49 journeys per day from Stratford to Leamington and 14 to Warwick, and 68 to Marylebone.

Indeed, more statistics are below:

Source: Office of Road and Rail via RDM	FY 2022-2023
	From	To	TOTAL	Weekly	Daily		Operators*
3	Stratford-upon-Avon	London Marylebone	24975	480	68	https://live-departures.info/rail/timetable/Stratford-upon-Avon/London-Marylebone/	CH
4	Stratford-upon-Avon	Leamington Spa	17860	343	49	https://live-departures.info/rail/timetable/Stratford-upon-Avon/Leamington-Spa/	CH

Leamington Spa -> Stratford-upon-Avon and Leamington Spa -> Kenilworth are very similar passenger numbers despite Kenilworth being a 1/3 the population, much less of a tourist draw (though the castle gets a couple) and very frequent bus services to compete with. However, Kenilworth has a well-advertised 1tph service compared to the 1tp2h service to Stratford-upon-Avon. I could see a 1tph Leamington -> Stratford shuttle noticeably increasing passenger numbers

 

[The Planner]

Stratford would be served by the London-Oxford-Stratford service, using a southerly curve to head into Stratford Parkway, then Stratford's central station (with a northerly curve as well permitting through Birmingham services).
For around 10 miles of new railway on mostly existing alignment (and indeed about 2.5 miles of that is extant railway around Long Marston).

So completely cutting off any Stratford to Worcestershire journeys then?

The additional benefit (on top of running trains to Stratford from the south) would be relief of the northern Cherwell Valley line and the Leamington to Coventry Line in the long term, plus XC services in the short term.

Northern Cherwell Valley isn't full. Leamington to Cov line needs upgrading far more than a new line to Stratford.

 

[AlastairFraser]

So completely cutting off any Stratford to Worcestershire journeys then?

Northern Cherwell Valley isn't full. Leamington to Cov line needs upgrading far more than a new line to Stratford.

1) No, Stratford to Worcestershire services could be provided using the extant western curve at Honeybourne, if there was demand. In the interim, passengers could change at Moreton-in-Marsh.
2) I agree about the Leam to Cov line, but we know that route into Birmingham from the Thames Valley and South Coast has finite capacity.
Redoubling all of Leam to Cov will only go so far, when the Stour Valley line through Birmingham New St is rammed.

 

[Energy]

The additional benefit (on top of running trains to Stratford from the south) would be relief of the northern Cherwell Valley line and the Leamington to Coventry Line in the long term, plus XC services in the short term.

Leamington - Coventry wouldn't get any relief as the route wouldn't go via Coventry. If you want to go south coast - Birmingham and don't care about Coventry then you can already go via the Bordersley curve.

 

[Bald Rick]

Redoubling all of Leam to Cov will only go so far, when the Stour Valley line through Birmingham New St is rammed.

But being relieved by a new pair of lines being built nearby…

 

[The Planner]

1) No, Stratford to Worcestershire services could be provided using the extant western curve at Honeybourne, if there was demand. In the interim, passengers could change at Moreton-in-Marsh.
2) I agree about the Leam to Cov line, but we know that route into Birmingham from the Thames Valley and South Coast has finite capacity.
Redoubling all of Leam to Cov will only go so far, when the Stour Valley line through Birmingham New St is rammed.

Why build the curve, saving on S&C, signalling etc if its just as easy to reverse at Honeybourne and create the connection by default. Moreton in Marsh is a daft way of doing it. All routes have finite capacity, Bald Rick has answered the Stours issue.

 

[Falcon1200]

I'm surprised nobody has (yet) proposed rebuilding the SMJ (Stratford-on-Avon and Midland Junction) line from Fenny Compton to Stratford and running a London/Stratford service that way.....

 

[AlastairFraser]

Leamington - Coventry wouldn't get any relief as the route wouldn't go via Coventry. If you want to go south coast - Birmingham and don't care about Coventry then you can already go via the Bordersley curve.

I meant the route in terms of rail traffic, it's not Coventry that is the target, but more capacity on the South Central to WM and beyond axis.

But being relieved by a new pair of lines being built nearby…

HS2 Phase 1 isn't much use for South Central to WM and beyond without a significant detour via London. It will help Stour Valley congestion, but then there is demand for increased suburban services in the WM that will fill a lot of that capacity.

Why build the curve, saving on S&C, signalling etc if its just as easy to reverse at Honeybourne and create the connection by default. Moreton in Marsh is a daft way of doing it. All routes have finite capacity, Bald Rick has answered the Stours issue.

Reversal at Honeybourne is very cumbersome in a line with quite constricted timetabling as it is. Approx. 0.6 mile/1km curve on land unobstructed in the middle of the countryside is going to be a small part of the overall project to deliver, with significant benefits associated with scoping this part of the project.

I'm surprised nobody has (yet) proposed rebuilding the SMJ (Stratford-on-Avon and Midland Junction) line from Fenny Compton to Stratford and running a London/Stratford service that way.....

It's a possibility, but a few thoughts on that proposal:

1) MOD Kineton on current route - would you need segregation from the active munitions depot and what level of segregation?

2) Length - we're talking 14 miles plus, compared to 10 miles Honeybourne to Stratford Parkway (especially to avoid the obstructions which I'll mention next). Although it is important to mention that it is more direct for trains to Stratford from Oxford/London.

3) Some obstruction of the route around Kineton itself (easily diverted around) and significant encroachment on the route closer to Stratford.
1.5 miles of the former alignment into Stratford has been converted to road and the urban sprawl of Stratford's eastern suburbia makes a bypass to join the line from the north at Bishopton/SoA Parkway quite long.

I've drawn a line for the potential bypass/approach in Stratford in the below attached image that is around 6 1/4 miles long, but even that comes with several short tunnels under villages and the edge of golf courses.
Or you could try a tunnel from the end of the unobstructed alignment east of Stratford to Stratford station, but it would be about 1.5 miles and I'm not sure what the ground conditions in the Avon valley are like.

It's not a bad idea overall, but I think you'd need some additional development (e.g. a large housing development near Kineton) to justify it.

 

[172007]

This is the feasibility study for Stratford to The Racecourse.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This is the feasibility study for Stratford to The Racecourse.

So it is possible. What did the feasibility study cost this route as?

 

[Bald Rick]

This is the feasibility study for Stratford to The Racecourse.

Yep, that‘s the one that relied on magic.

It’s worth looking at that video closely, and then at what is actually on the ground now, to see why it is not entirely represent…

 

[Falcon1200]

My suggestion of rebuilding the SMJ was not intended to be taken seriously! IMHO Stratford is simply not big enough, either in itself or as a destination, to even begin to justify the huge sums of money required to, effectively, build new lines, however a better service could be provided via the existing routes; More trains to/from Leamington and faster trains to/from Birmingham, perhaps.

 

[Bald Rick]

My suggestion of rebuilding the SMJ was not intended to be taken seriously! IMHO Stratford is simply not big enough, either in itself or as a destination, to even begin to justify the huge sums of money required to, effectively, build new lines, however a better service could be provided via the existing routes; More trains to/from Leamington and faster trains to/from Birmingham, perhaps.

Exactly.

 

[172007]

Yep, that‘s the one that relied on magic.

It’s worth looking at that video closely, and then at what is actually on the ground now, to see why it is not entirely represent…

From when I last walked the route it seemed the idea is feasible it's the civil that would be the expensive part and is almost a cut and cover tunnel in a few parts.

Looking on Google maps it still seems possible. Where exactly do you see the use locations?

 

[Energy]

This is the feasibility study for Stratford to The Racecourse.

ARUP found the construction cost here to be £111.3m, which is less than I thought. The capital could probably be funded by business rates retention, S106 contributions and some money from the Housing Infrastructure Fund if ~15 000 homes were built on route.

 

[mr_jrt]

Interesting. My initial thoughts when looking at the area on a map and the (relatively) short distances involved was that the road could possibly be rebuilt atop a simple enough cut and cover tunnel. That fly through showing that there is room for them to be alongside each other is somewhat...surprising, to say the least.

 

[BrianW]

The ability of Forumites to identify and evaluate rail proposals, including the reviving of this or that line or development of another is remarkable.

I imagine that while Nadhim Sahawi was the elected representatiive for this area, including a period as Chancellor of the Exchequer, consideration was given to a range of rail improvement possibilities.

I note that, IIUC, the folk of Stratford-Upon-Avon and environs are generally well enough off to be able to take the train and well enough off to not need to.

The statement a few days ago by the current Chancellor has probably put paid to many of the ideas shared here, for the time being at least, while being a suitable thread for continued speculation.