£2 fare , Government remuneration

[Nicholas Lewis]

In Nottingham the tram operators blame low rider numbers partly on the £2 bus fares as unfair competition. With most (all?) local governments with trams being Labour and perhaps now finding it easier to get the ear of government I wondered If trams would be brought into the scheme but paid for by raising the £2 higher e.g. £2.50 as originally planned but if the funds weren't there in the first place maybe not.

Certainly some restructuring would make sense as it seems daft you can go very long journeys for £2 and perhaps there should be higher fares for over say 10miles.

 

[Kite159]

I would be surprised if it survives after December, at least outside the areas which don't have a separate fare cap scheme. Citing it being unfunded and the big black hole.

Back to the days of fares for some bus journeys being harder to find as some of the bus company websites don't display single fare prices only prices for day tickets (other than Stagecoach which will show you the price options)

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I would be surprised if it survives after December, at least outside the areas which don't have a separate fare cap scheme. Citing it being unfunded and the big black hole.

Back to the days of fares for some bus journeys being harder to find as some of the bus company websites don't display single fare prices only prices for day tickets (other than Stagecoach which will show you the price options)

Well they lose our custom if it goes back to the original fare. At least we were handing over some cash as majority of users on our route were on concession passes.

 

[MotCO]

Well they lose our custom if it goes back to the original fare. At least we were handing over some cash as majority of users on our route were on concession passes.

It is also a hard sell to tell the travelling public that your fares are rising, probably by £s, not just pennies. Ater being used to cheap fares for 18 (?) months, any increase back to the original level will come hard. I wonder if any companies will not revert to the old fares, but something lower?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It is also a hard sell to tell the travelling public that your fares are rising, probably by £s, not just pennies. Ater being used to cheap fares for 18 (?) months, any increase back to the original level will come hard. I wonder if any companies will not revert to the old fares, but something lower?

I can only go on the local routes I started using in that I was paying them money rather than driving the car into town. I'm happy to pay £2.50 but if it's more than that I might as well use the car. The bus will run anyhow but just with the concessionaires travelling in the round they will lose money.

 

[RT4038]

The bus will run anyhow but just with the concessionaires travelling so in the round they will lose money.

Don't be so sure. The concessionary passengers may well be carried on a special shopping bus operated between Education contract journeys and the public bus service disappears for ever......

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Don't be so sure. The concessionary passengers may well be carried on a special shopping bus operated between Education contract journeys and the public bus service disappears for ever......

Labour made big promises over bus services in their manifesto

 

[RT4038]

I wonder if any companies will not revert to the old fares, but something lower?

I think this is pretty unlikely. The bus companies are more likely to demand extra subsidies from Local Authorities to keep fares down (or maintain current levels of operation), and in the event that these are not forthcoming reduce and/or eliminate services (in some areas this would be all the current services).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2024 ==

Labour made big promises over bus services in their manifesto

So they did, and if they intend to keep them I would not expect much change to the £2 fare cap.

 

[OptareOlympus]

Labour made big promises over bus services in their manifesto

No they didn't. They said they would empower local authorities to take control over local buses. They made no central government spending commitments to bus services.

Concessionary passes and the fare cap were notably absent from Labour's manifesto, and if today's long overdue announcement of means testing winter fuel payments is anything to go by, then changes to concessionary travel, be that eligibility or scope of use, or even continuation of the scheme itself are also on the way in the budget.

 

[MotCO]

I think this is pretty unlikely. The bus companies are more likely to demand extra subsidies from Local Authorities to keep fares down (or maintain current levels of operation), and in the event that these are not forthcoming reduce and/or eliminate services (in some areas this would be all the current services).

Where's the entreprenurial spirit? Sure, some services are lightly used, but getting more passengers onto marginal urban services should be the aim of enterprising companies rather than just put fares up and cut services.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

No they didn't. They said they would empower local authorities to take control over local buses. They made no central government spending commitments to bus services.

They didn't really put pound notes to anything in the manifesto and whilst I understand what you're saying over local control they also made statements about developing a long-term strategy for transport, ensuring transport infrastructure can be delivered efficiently and on time of course. They, like any politicians, use words that could mean anything.

Concessionary passes and the fare cap were notably absent from Labour's manifesto, and if today's long overdue announcement of means testing winter fuel payments is anything to go by, then changes to concessionary travel, be that eligibility or scope of use, or even continuation of the scheme itself are also on the way in the budget.

Given their opening gambit on winter fuel allowance it's entirely possible more means testing will be brought in but you will have the anomalies of TfL providing something far better than other parts of the country.

 

[Kite159]

Don't be so sure. The concessionary passengers may well be carried on a special shopping bus operated between Education contract journeys and the public bus service disappears for ever......

Or those special shopping buses disappearing to be replaced with the latest DRT scheme for various rural areas away from main roads which link towns

 

[HullRailMan]

No they didn't. They said they would empower local authorities to take control over local buses. They made no central government spending commitments to bus services.

Concessionary passes and the fare cap were notably absent from Labour's manifesto, and if today's long overdue announcement of means testing winter fuel payments is anything to go by, then changes to concessionary travel, be that eligibility or scope of use, or even continuation of the scheme itself are also on the way in the budget.

Exactly this. All the new government committed to do was give local authorities the power to franchise bus services. No money was promised. Central government can say they’ve given their local counterparts the power but, without cash to back it up, it’s effectively meaningless.

I too expect to see concessionary passes means tested. To be fair, it makes sense. Or, it could revert to a reduced fare scheme rather than free to use. The £2 fare aside, the concessionary pass scheme isn’t sustainable long term in its current form for either the user or bus company.

 

[stevieinselby]

I too expect to see concessionary passes means tested. To be fair, it makes sense. Or, it could revert to a reduced fare scheme rather than free to use. The £2 fare aside, the concessionary pass scheme isn’t sustainable long term in its current form for either the user or bus company.

I used to think it should be means-tested, but I'm not so sure any more, for a number of reasons:

• Richer pensioners are less likely to use a pass regularly. The admin costs of providing the pass are tiny, the cost comes when it is used. If they aren't using the pass (much) then they aren't costing the taxpayer (much) money ... unlike the Winter Fuel Allowance, which is paid to everyone eligible automatically.
• Providing older people with an incentive to use public transport has an additional benefit in making it easier to get people to give up driving – elderly drivers are a high-risk group and persuading more of them to stop driving or to drive less is a good in itself. And just in general terms, it encourages pensioners to use the bus (and train, in London) more and to drive less, which benefits us all.
• Free bus travel has been shown to have a significant positive cost/benefit ratio, in that it encourages people to make trips that they otherwise wouldn't have made, and then to spend money when they are out, which keeps the economy turning.
• Concessionary pass holders keep many rural bus routes alive. Scrap the universal free pass and passenger numbers on many routes would drop to a level that was unsustainable (or unjustifiable, in the case of subsidised routes), even if some of those passengers continued to use the bus and pay.

 

[RT4038]

Where's the entreprenurial spirit? Sure, some services are lightly used, but getting more passengers onto marginal urban services should be the aim of enterprising companies rather than just put fares up and cut services.

The entrepreneurial spirit is long gone. Hardly surprising really, when entrepreneurial spirit is met by the State with increased regulation and pushing higher costs onto operators, to drain away the fruits of being an entrepreneur.

Or those special shopping buses disappearing to be replaced with the latest DRT scheme for various rural areas away from main roads which link towns

This maybe also, but less likely in the longer term. What is really at risk is ordinary public bus services, particularly anything around school times when the buses can be used to fulfill statutory responsibilities.

 

[lookapigeon]

I used to think it should be means-tested, but I'm not so sure any more, for a number of reasons:

• Richer pensioners are less likely to use a pass regularly. The admin costs of providing the pass are tiny, the cost comes when it is used. If they aren't using the pass (much) then they aren't costing the taxpayer (much) money ... unlike the Winter Fuel Allowance, which is paid to everyone eligible automatically.
• Providing older people with an incentive to use public transport has an additional benefit in making it easier to get people to give up driving – elderly drivers are a high-risk group and persuading more of them to stop driving or to drive less is a good in itself. And just in general terms, it encourages pensioners to use the bus (and train, in London) more and to drive less, which benefits us all.
• Free bus travel has been shown to have a significant positive cost/benefit ratio, in that it encourages people to make trips that they otherwise wouldn't have made, and then to spend money when they are out, which keeps the economy turning.
• Concessionary pass holders keep many rural bus routes alive. Scrap the universal free pass and passenger numbers on many routes would drop to a level that was unsustainable (or unjustifiable, in the case of subsidised routes), even if some of those passengers continued to use the bus and pay.

Fair points. I do wonder if charging say 1/2 or 1/4 fare to concessionary holders - such as the elderly, or children would have any benefit. Surely it is better to have some farebox revenue per passenger than just any subsidy?

On my bus journeys in TFL land I often see children jump on for one stop and get off at the next when the distance between two said stops is completely walkable. Whilst the cost of the journey is free to the passenger surely there must be some sort of cost associated with it?

 

[Magdalia]

I used to think it should be means-tested, but I'm not so sure any more, for a number of reasons:

Free bus travel is the one pensioner benefit that I would keep universal, and your reasons are excellent.

I do wonder if charging say 1/2 or 1/4 fare to concessionary holders - such as the elderly

Providing older people with an incentive to use public transport has an additional benefit in making it easier to get people to give up driving

Any charge negates the incentive to give up driving. I remember persuading my father to give up driving and free bus travel was an essential part of my argument.

 

[gc4946]

Some reform of fares in England is inevitable.
The £2 fare cap is paid by central government via grants to bus operators, free passes are funded and remunerated by local authorities.
Both Transport Scotland and the Welsh government directly reimburse operators participating in their concessionary schemes.
Could England move towards central govermnent direct reimbursement to bus operators combined with grants for fare caps?

 

[GusB]

This thread is discussing the remuneration of bus operators with regard to the £2 fare cap. Anything else should be discussed elsewhere.

 

[HullRailMan]

I used to think it should be means-tested, but I'm not so sure any more, for a number of reasons:

• Richer pensioners are less likely to use a pass regularly. The admin costs of providing the pass are tiny, the cost comes when it is used. If they aren't using the pass (much) then they aren't costing the taxpayer (much) money ... unlike the Winter Fuel Allowance, which is paid to everyone eligible automatically.
• Providing older people with an incentive to use public transport has an additional benefit in making it easier to get people to give up driving – elderly drivers are a high-risk group and persuading more of them to stop driving or to drive less is a good in itself. And just in general terms, it encourages pensioners to use the bus (and train, in London) more and to drive less, which benefits us all.
• Free bus travel has been shown to have a significant positive cost/benefit ratio, in that it encourages people to make trips that they otherwise wouldn't have made, and then to spend money when they are out, which keeps the economy turning.
• Concessionary pass holders keep many rural bus routes alive. Scrap the universal free pass and passenger numbers on many routes would drop to a level that was unsustainable (or unjustifiable, in the case of subsidised routes), even if some of those passengers continued to use the bus and pay.

Points 1, 3 and 4 apply to everyone. So, why should a millionaire pension get a free pass while a minimum wage worker has to pay?

Thinking about the £2 fare remuneration and how to combine this with passes, how about using the money that underpins the £2 offer and creating a national bus pass open to all that has an annual charge of say £250/£300(or monthly equivalent)? It can then be provided free of charge to certain groups (eg pensioners on pension credit) but is chargeable for everyone else. Bus companies are compensated per ride in line with the current £2 deal
But would likely see increased ridership. No idea on the overall cost.

Something has to be put in place to avoid the cliff edge of the £2 going and bus companies losing those passengers.

 

[Harpers Tate]

why should a millionaire pension get a free pass while a minimum wage worker has to pay?

How about this for a reason?

1: A millionaire is arguably less likely to actually use a bus (and thereby their pass)(and thereby cost any money). Very few choose buses nowadays as an open choice. Most use them out of necessity (whether financial or otherwise).

2: Each person that does choose buses over their car means one less car on the road, which is good from a congestion point of view and is good from an environmental point of view. If the issuance of a pass makes any change however small to the choices people make, it's a benefit to all of us.

 

[Deerfold]

Points 1, 3 and 4 apply to everyone. So, why should a millionaire pension get a free pass while a minimum wage worker has to pay?

Thinking about the £2 fare remuneration and how to combine this with passes, how about using the money that underpins the £2 offer and creating a national bus pass open to all that has an annual charge of say £250/£300(or monthly equivalent)? It can then be provided free of charge to certain groups (eg pensioners on pension credit) but is chargeable for everyone else. Bus companies are compensated per ride in line with the current £2 deal
But would likely see increased ridership. No idea on the overall cost.

Something has to be put in place to avoid the cliff edge of the £2 going and bus companies losing those passengers.

A ticket for my local county is £930 a year. I doubt the money being used to subsidise fares would bring that down to £300 - especially if it's valid over a wider area. (Transdev charge £1100 for a ticket valid on all their buses, Nottingham City Transport £999).

 

[ChrisC]

By 31st December, when the £2 bus fares are currently due to end, the scheme will have been running for 2 years. If the fare cap ends completely, from the beginning of January fares will not just return to their previous levels but to those levels plus inflation. Many people who have been using the bus instead of their cars will probably return to their cars. Long term bus users will also find it quite a shock, after having it good for 2 years, to find out what the new fares will be. From many of the villages around my area the single fare for a journey of just under 10 miles into town was around £4.50, with a day ticket being sold for a return journey at £7.90. During these last 2 years that day ticket price has now risen to £9.50, so I presume that the single fare will be at least £5. Unless the government comes up with something new,

Without the £2 fare cap, or something to replace it, there could be a significant fall in bus passenger numbers on some routes in January. If there are less passengers will some routes be less viable than with the current government renumeration?

 

[joieman]

A ticket for my local county is £930 a year. I doubt the money being used to subsidise fares would bring that down to £300 - especially if it's valid over a wider area. (Transdev charge £1100 for a ticket valid on all their buses, Nottingham City Transport £999).

By way of comparison, Germany has the Deutschlandticket which costs €49 (£41.34) a month (equivalent to €588/£496.08) and is valid on buses, trams and various local train services throughout Germany.

 

[OptareOlympus]

By 31st December, when the £2 bus fares are currently due to end, the scheme will have been running for 2 years. If the fare cap ends completely, from the beginning of January fares will not just return to their previous levels but to those levels plus inflation. Many people who have been using the bus instead of their cars will probably return to their cars. Long term bus users will also find it quite a shock, after having it good for 2 years, to find out what the new fares will be. From many of the villages around my area the single fare for a journey of just under 10 miles into town was around £4.50, with a day ticket being sold for a return journey at £7.90. During these last 2 years that day ticket price has now risen to £9.50, so I presume that the single fare will be at least £5. Unless the government comes up with something new,

Without the £2 fare cap, or something to replace it, there could be a significant fall in bus passenger numbers on some routes in January. If there are less passengers will some routes be less viable than with the current government renumeration?

KPMG have done a deep dive into the possible options beyond the 31 Dec end date. They put forward around 8 alternative options but they seem clear that the £2 cap is the weakest of them and provides the least best outcomes.

The Confederation of Passenger Transport (CPT) has published a report by KPMG outlining options for a transition away from the £2 bus fare cap for single journeys.

The report, Alternatives to the national fares cap – how can the next government make bus travel more affordable for more people?, analyses the positives and negatives of the Bus Fare Cap Grant (BFCG), with due regard also to the impact of its ending in its current form in December.

While no firm conclusions were provided as to the best options, CPT hopes the findings will enable further discussion which will help the government form a follow-up to BFCG.

Analysis was made as to the merits, drawbacks and benefit-cost ratios of eight options:

• Single fare cap (Option 1)
• Day fare cap (Option 2)
• Proportionate fare reduction (Option 3)
• Additional Bus Service Operators Grant (BSOG) funding (Option 4)
• Employment tax benefit (Option 5)
• National free travel for certain groups (Option 6)
• Local concessionary travel for certain groups (Option 7)
• Mobility credits (Option 8)

https://www.cpt-uk.org/media/oxgjxg1b/crt152726a_cpt_study-on-alternatives-to-the-national-fare-cap_130224_final.pdf

For my money, I'd bet on a National Day (or weekly) Fare Capping scheme with concessionary travel credits replacing ENCTS but extended to include under 22s and certain other demos. A weekly concessionary credit limit will be easy to set when it can be aligned to a national weekly fare cap.

 

[RT4038]

By way of comparison, Germany has the Deutschlandticket which costs €49 (£41.34) a month (equivalent to €588/£496.08) and is valid on buses, trams and various local train services throughout Germany.

And that is costing how much, compared to the cost of the £2 fare cap? (adjusted for size of population of course)

 

[joieman]

And that is costing how much, compared to the cost of the £2 fare cap? (adjusted for size of population of course)

If we assume for instance that a passenger uses a bus an average of three times a day every day of the week, then that's £6 a day and £42 a week. This is just my wild guesstimate, though.

 

[OptareOlympus]

If we assume for instance that a passenger uses a bus an average of three times a day every day of the week, then that's £6 a day and £42 a week. This is just my wild guesstimate, though.

And thanks to the DfT's generated travel factors and elasticity curves, an operator in the UK would receive about £9 of that and we'd all see yet more services cut and driver wages supressed ala ENCTS.

 

[RT4038]

If we assume for instance that a passenger uses a bus an average of three times a day every day of the week, then that's £6 a day and £42 a week. This is just my wild guesstimate, though.

I meant - how much has the Deutschlandticket cost German taxpayers, vs. how much has the £2 bus fare cap cost UK taxpayers (adjusted for population size) ?

 

[The exile]

I meant - how much has the Deutschlandticket cost German taxpayers, vs. how much has the £2 bus fare cap cost UK taxpayers (adjusted for population size) ?

Enough that’s it’s being considered unsustainable in the medium term.