Is Stratford upon Avon destined to remain as poorly connected as it is currently?

[A S Leib]

I'm sure there would be a market for reintroduction of direct Marylebone-Stratford services, but having also recently removed almost all direct services to Kidderminster/Stourbridge, it does appear that Chiltern are still in a period of post-Covid retrenchment, rather than looking to expand and grow their markets.

I think Chiltern's due to run the Oxford – Milton Keynes services starting at some point after the December timetable change, so I'd guess that would be their priority after increasing passenger numbers to / from Marylebone, Oxford, Birmingham etc.

 

[Russel]

I can see increasing the Lemington service being beneficial, that and the half hourly Birmingham service would be more than enough.

I can't see a need for anything beyond that.

 

[Meerkat]

Yes an Oxford service would be good too, ideally this would run all the way to Paddington.

My hypothetical Chiltern service would call additionally at Bicester North.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2024 ==



I wouldn’t describe Stratford as a small town, but granted it’s not a large town like Banbury, but the fact that it’s a busy tourist town that’s constantly busy day in day out warrants a service to London, even 1tph

The tourist bit is small. It may be busy but where are those people from and what are they doing? Are they coming from London, and not visiting as part of a car based holiday in the Cotswolds or suchlike?

It's 2h 11m northbound and 2h 14m southbound, with approximately 10 minutes of that the connection at Leamington Spa. Yes 4h 25m travel in a day is a lot but it's perfectly doable as a day trip? Loads of people do day trips from London to Bournemouth, York, Liverpool, Littlehampton, all similar journey times?

Those examples are either far far bigger, or on the beach.

 

[MarkyT]

In the mid-1990s, the Thames Trains services via Reading and Oxford were popular and connected well to other popular tourist sites. I used them regularly between Reading and Warwick, where I was working at the time. There were only a handful of journeys per day however, but there was a mid-evening train back for those on a long day out and I often used that when working late. It terminated at Oxford, but that suited me as I had a ~20m connection into the next Reading train which gave me time to nip out of the station to Bretts excellent burger and dutch fries kiosk nearby for dinner (a favorite of Lord Adonis in his university days apparently). There was also a very late departure for theatre-goers returning from Stratford. I used that occasionally when working extremely late to meet a deadline.

 

[AlastairFraser]

In my opinion, Stratford upon avon is one of the U.K.’s best tourist sites not only is it the birthplace of Shakespeare but it’s just generally a nice town.
I suspect the vast majority of people who visit though don’t use the train because it’s so poorly connected to the rest of the rail network, there are frequent services to Birmingham, but services to London and Leamington spa are intermittent.
is there any way the situation can be improved, or any future plans for the station, I know the honeyburn rail link has been cancelled now which could’ve given it a direct connection to Worcester and Cheltenham spa but how about extending one of the Leamington spa stoppers in peak times to Coventry or even Nuneaton?
another idea I had, which is completely out there is a service during summer and tourist seasons from Stratford to Oxford via Banbury, with a potential to extend further to either Reading, Milton Keynes or possibly Bristol.
Obviously that’s very unlikely to happen, but what other prospects are there?

I think the Honeybourne connection is the only prospect for through London services - in particular a through London - Reading - Oxford - Honeybourne - Birmingham would probably take some pressure off a core part of XC's service area and allow them to alleviate the overcrowding a little.

Failing that, an Oxford to Stratford stopper, as an extension of the Oxford to Banbury shuttle post-Didcot to Oxford redesign + electrification, would make a lot of sense. You could even incorporate the existing Chiltern Leamington Spa to Stratford via Bearley services in.

 

[RT4038]

I think the Honeybourne connection is the only prospect for through London services - in particular a through London - Reading - Oxford - Honeybourne - Birmingham would probably take some pressure off a core part of XC's service area and allow them to alleviate the overcrowding a little.

If that is the only prospect, rebuilding a section of line through an urban area, already occupied by a main road, then I think it may as well be forgotten!

Any XC overcrowding could be alleviated by 10-car trains, without any additional track or driver requirement.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If that is the only prospect, rebuilding a section of line through an urban area, already occupied by a main road, then I think it may as well be forgotten!

Any XC overcrowding could be alleviated by 10-car trains, without any additional track or driver requirement.

We may well see additional bypasses due to urban expansion that render that main road surplus, I wouldn't write it off yet.

Alleviating XC overcrowding is just a bonus - of course the main objective is the connection of several significant tourist draws to a major city, with the secondary objective of better North - South public transport links in a region that is notable for having barely any.

 

[RT4038]

We may well see additional bypasses due to urban expansion that render that main road surplus, I wouldn't write it off yet.

Alleviating XC overcrowding is just a bonus - of course the main objective is the connection of several significant tourist draws to a major city, with the secondary objective of better North - South public transport links in a region that is notable for having barely any.

I still think it is unlikely. I do not think the 'main objective' [to whom?] will wash its face, particularly as it can be achieved on existing tracks throughout, or with short dedicated road transport links at a fraction of the cost.

 

[cle]

If that is the only prospect, rebuilding a section of line through an urban area, already occupied by a main road, then I think it may as well be forgotten!

Any XC overcrowding could be alleviated by 10-car trains, without any additional track or driver requirement.

Agree. I think an incremental Oxford - Banbury - Statford type knitting together of services might be worth a try, especially if Chiltern. built out more of an Oxford hub (running EWR, Marylebone, Moor St and Cowley potential) - it would be quite the operation! And need some platform help, I'm sure.

But yes the easiest XC solve is longer trains, and getting back to the full 2tph X route.

 

[RT4038]

Agree. I think an incremental Oxford - Banbury - Statford type knitting together of services might be worth a try, especially if Chiltern. built out more of an Oxford hub (running EWR, Marylebone, Moor St and Cowley potential) - it would be quite the operation! And need some platform help, I'm sure.

But yes the easiest XC solve is longer trains, and getting back to the full 2tph X route.

An hourly Leamington- Stratford shuttle would be just fine.

 

[Starmill]

Those examples are either far far bigger, or on the beach.

So Stratford-upon-Avon isn't for you personally. I think we get the picture. I don't think that reads across to it's tourism draw generally.

 

[Meerkat]

So Stratford-upon-Avon isn't for you personally. I think we get the picture. I don't think that reads across to it's tourism draw generally.

That’s an odd reply. I am pointing out the clear reasons why it’s a very different proposition for train days out from London than those listed.

 

[Starmill]

That’s an odd reply. I am pointing out the clear reasons why it’s a very different proposition for train days out from London than those listed.

And yet it's a popular draw for tourists despite being not at all to your liking. That's fine, nobody said you had to go there.

 

[The Planner]

Isn't Stratford a next stop after Bicester Village for a lot of continental tourists? Unless they are making their way across to Bicester North, it doesn't fit well with a rail journey, unless Bicester Village put on decent size buses for people with bags.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The brand new shuttle bus is a decent size. Electric too!

Bicester Village shuttle service goes electric

Oxford Bus Company has launched an electric bus into Bicester Village to help further improve air quality.

www.oxfordbus.co.uk

 

[MarkyT]

I think the Honeybourne connection is the only prospect for through London services - in particular a through London - Reading - Oxford - Honeybourne - Birmingham would probably take some pressure off a core part of XC's service area and allow them to alleviate the overcrowding a little.

That would provide a direct Oxford connection which was a big advantage of the old Thames Trains routing. Stratford is an issue though as there's a busy road on the old formation. I'd go for a new south station, not on the old formation, but on a 2.6km extension from south of the old river bridge, along the east bank of the river to a site next to the recreation ground, just short walk over the bridge or take the chain ferry from the Royal Shakespeare:

Failing that, an Oxford to Stratford stopper, as an extension of the Oxford to Banbury shuttle post-Didcot to Oxford redesign + electrification, would make a lot of sense. You could even incorporate the existing Chiltern Leamington Spa to Stratford via Bearley services in.

Nice idea but maybe overdoing frequency a bit on the Banbury-Leamington section, especially if if XC goes back to 2 trains per hour.

 

[JonathanH]

Nice idea but maybe overdoing frequency a bit on the Banbury-Leamington section, especially if if XC goes back to 2 trains per hour.

Perhaps someone needs to site a new town between Banbury and Leamington Spa to justify more local trains on the route.

A cut off from a new town at Kineton to Stratford may be better than trying to resurrect the Honeybourne route.

 

[The Planner]

Perhaps someone needs to site a new town between Banbury and Leamington Spa to justify more local trains on the route.

A cut off from a new town at Kineton to Stratford may be better than trying to resurrect the Honeybourne route.

They gave up with the proposal at Long Marston.

 

[MarkyT]

Perhaps someone needs to site a new town between Banbury and Leamington Spa to justify more local trains on the route.

A cut off from a new town at Kineton to Stratford may be better than trying to resurrect the Honeybourne route.

That could serve a riverside station too.

 

[BanburyBlue]

In the mid-1990s, the Thames Trains services via Reading and Oxford were popular and connected well to other popular tourist sites. I used them regularly between Reading and Warwick, where I was working at the time. There were only a handful of journeys per day however, but there was a mid-evening train back for those on a long day out and I often used that when working late. It terminated at Oxford, but that suited me as I had a ~20m connection into the next Reading train which gave me time to nip out of the station to Bretts excellent burger and dutch fries kiosk nearby for dinner (a favorite of Lord Adonis in his university days apparently). There was also a very late departure for theatre-goers returning from Stratford. I used that occasionally when working extremely late to meet a deadline.

Ah - Bretts burgers - that brings back some memories.

 

[stu]

Living in Stratford, it's far more convenient to drive to a railhead (from my bit, I can do Leamington in 20mins or Banbury in 30 mins - which I do, it's cheaper in the peak & also Network Railcard kicks in there) so I think a lot of the target market are already doing that.

That said, I can see a hourly shuttle Stratford>Leamington with a good connection time to a London service being better than what we have now. I know our new MP has identified a direct rail service to London as something she wants to push for, which is admirable and I can certainly see why this would be the case. But I think overall, a good reliable shuttle service being a better solution.

 

[Meerkat]

And yet it's a popular draw for tourists despite being not at all to your liking. That's fine, nobody said you had to go there.

I didn’t say it lacked tourists - my point is that i don’t think a regular direct train can be justified by the number who come from London and would want to go by train.

 

[Starmill]

I didn’t say it lacked tourists - my point is that i don’t think a regular direct train can be justified by the number who come from London and would want to go by train.

That's not the argument though is it? The argument that's prevailed in this thread has been that the number in or very close to the town going to London, plus those visiting from the south, would justify reasonably an hourly service between Stratford-upon-Avon and Leamington Spa, with London connections in focus. Some people have pushed that further, some have suggested it's desirable but marginal, all of which are supported by the limited evidence we have.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2024 ==

That said, I can see a hourly shuttle Stratford>Leamington with a good connection time to a London service being better than what we have now.

Exactly. A two hours ten minutes journey time is pretty decent. A proper hourly service to Leamington Spa / Warwick is also decent for their respective town centres to have the best connectivity the infrastructure could support.

You could argue Chiltern have made removing the old 1718 easier to achieve an hourly service, because the two-hourly service is now on a much more even interval, which helps to identify the appropriate slot for the extra services (not that I'm saying they're free - they're probably not all free because at least some may clash with freight or CrossCountry, I haven't looked!).

 

[AlastairFraser]

That would provide a direct Oxford connection which was a big advantage of the old Thames Trains routing. Stratford is an issue though as there's a busy road on the old formation. I'd go for a new south station, not on the old formation, but on a 2.6km extension from south of the old river bridge, along the east bank of the river to a site next to the recreation ground, just short walk over the bridge or take the chain ferry from the Royal Shakespeare:
View attachment 162739

Nice idea but maybe overdoing frequency a bit on the Banbury-Leamington section, especially if if XC goes back to 2 trains per hour.

1). I think the riverside plan is OK, but I'm not sure it would pass a cost-benefit analysis without a through connection to Birmingham.

Perhaps a westerly through route with a south facing curve joining the mainline near Stratford on Avon Parkway would be better.

2). Perhaps a new station near Bishop's Itchington/Harbury on platform loops could help sustain the higher frequency.

 

[CyrusWuff]

One of the key blockers preventing a meaningful through service between London and Stratford-upon-Avon is that it's a highly inefficient use of rolling stock (given a round trip takes at least four hours) for the number of passengers.

Running it as a shuttle from Leamington Spa just requires one unit (two if you want to make it more frequent than every two hours.)

 

[MarkyT]

1). I think the riverside plan is OK, but I'm not sure it would pass a cost-benefit analysis without a through connection to Birmingham.

How much traffic through Stratford on such a through service are we expecting? Passengers from Thames Valley to Birmingham already have other options.

Perhaps a westerly through route with a south facing curve joining the mainline near Stratford on Avon Parkway would be better.

The orange alternative. A disadvantage with this for any through service is the 2 miles in, reverse and out of the town station from Parkway. If trains didn't go through to Birmingham at least interchange could be made available at Parkway.

2). Perhaps a new station near Bishop's Itchington/Harbury on platform loops could help sustain the higher frequency.

It's a long section with no surviving stations, and around there looks like the best place for one. However one station alone on a short loop usually means a long dwell time if a timetabled passing manouevre is to take place. A stopping service might work anyway with platforms on the mainline, perhaps closely following or preceeding a freight with similar average speed.

 

[stu]

Of course, one issue with the yellow route above is they've built a marina along that line.

Plus I could never see anyone allowing a station to be built on the Rec.

 

[AlastairFraser]

How much traffic through Stratford on such a through service are we expecting? Passengers from Thames Valley to Birmingham already have other options.

View attachment 162791
The orange alternative. A disadvantage with this for any through service is the 2 miles in, reverse and out of the town station from Parkway. If trains didn't go through to Birmingham at least interchange could be made available at Parkway.

It's a long section with no surviving stations, and around there looks like the best place for one. However one station alone on a short loop usually means a long dwell time if a timetabled passing manouevre is to take place. A stopping service might work anyway with platforms on the mainline, perhaps closely following or preceeding a freight with similar average speed.

1.) A fair bit - a rail-based tourist trail heading Oxford - Stratford - Bournville and further on is pretty logical, plus this would enable those in other parts of south Brum and Solihull to head south without backtracking or working out some complicated route on local buses to Birmingham International.

2.) The Interchange at Parkway with services running into the existing terminus is a fair plan.

3.) I get your re the new station on the main line, I just would think it is important that we provide additional track capacity somehow when providing new stations. Perhaps provide a new station here and platform loops elsewhere?

 

[Meerkat]

That's not the argument though is it? The argument that's prevailed in this thread has been that the number in or very close to the town going to London, plus those visiting from the south, would justify reasonably an hourly service between Stratford-upon-Avon and Leamington Spa, with London connections in focus.

my response was due to several contributors wanting direct trains.
A shuttle to Leamington makes sense, advertised for linking Stratford and Warwick Castle.
Does the route make an hourly service practicable? Presumably Chiltern would struggle for trains at the moment.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Of course, one issue with the yellow route above is they've built a marina along that line.

Plus I could never see anyone allowing a station to be built on the Rec.

Another issue is it isn't really all that far from the existing station to the old town / Shakespeare areas in the first place, and it's pretty much a straight line walk as well. Any new alignment anywhere in the area isn't going to really be worth doing.

The often suggested Honeybourne link on the existing trackbed is very likely the most efficient way there is of expanding service options and connectivity.