Bromley North to Charing X fast

[LLivery]

Since the timetable change in June, Southeastern runs a few peak fast Orpington ‐ Charing Cross services, running fast between London Bridge and Grove Park. But if I'm honest, I don't really see the point of it. Orpington passengers take the fasts, so it's only really for Grove Park, Elmstead, Chislehurst and Petts Wood. But the slower services at all those stations seem much busier. What they really could do with is additional Lewisham services, but of course capacity.

Grove Park seems the busiest south of Lewisham, but many are interchanging, so I'm wondering if it'd make more sense for this to be a Bromley North service instead? So Charing Cross, Waterloo East, London Bridge, Grove Park, Sundridge Park, Bromley North, using the same paths on the main line. This would give Bromley a quick service into the City (walking from London Bridge), rather than relying on Victoria for all fast services. While ideally, if stock permitted, lengthening the busiest of 10 car services via Chislehurst to 12 cars.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

When was the last time that the two mile Bromley North branch line had through services operating beyond Grove Park, without a change being required at Grove Park? Or, indeed, any Sunday/Bank Holiday service whatsoever?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Since the timetable change in June, Southeastern runs a few peak fast Orpington ‐ Charing Cross services, running fast between London Bridge and Grove Park. But if I'm honest, I don't really see the point of it. Orpington passengers take the fasts, so it's only really for Grove Park, Elmstead, Chislehurst and Petts Wood. But the slower services at all those stations seem much busier. What they really could do with is additional Lewisham services, but of course capacity.

Grove Park seems the busiest south of Lewisham, but many are interchanging, so I'm wondering if it'd make more sense for this to be a Bromley North service instead? So Charing Cross, Waterloo East, London Bridge, Grove Park, Sundridge Park, Bromley North, using the same paths on the main line. This would give Bromley a quick service into the City (walking from London Bridge), rather than relying on Victoria for all fast services. While ideally, if stock permitted, lengthening the busiest of 10 car services via Chislehurst to 12 cars.

I would love a Bromley North to CHX service, but it seems like one of those railway ideas that seem simple, but would require breaking several elemental laws of the universe to actually implement. You'd need a grade-separated junction at Grove Park at least, and I don't think there's the space for it.

If more Bromley to City services are needed, which I'm sure there is demand for, surely they could just go via Catford into Blackfriars? That said, I've commuted on the Catford Loop a few times this year in the morning and turns into a bit of a mess when you have a slow Thameslink right in front of a semi-fast to Victoria.

 

[PGAT]

I would love a Bromley North to CHX service, but it seems like one of those railway ideas that seem simple, but would require breaking several elemental laws of the universe to actually implement. You'd need a grade-separated junction at Grove Park at least, and I don't think there's the space for it.

If more Bromley to City services are needed, which I'm sure there is demand for, surely they could just go via Catford into Blackfriars? That said, I've commuted on the Catford Loop a few times this year in the morning and turns into a bit of a mess when you have a slow Thameslink right in front of a semi-fast to Victoria.

A grade separated junction wouldn’t be required to access the fast lines as the connection already exists. The only reason through services do not run was because the paths were deemed better suited for other services

 

[greatkingrat]

I think through services to Bromley North have run occasionally when engineering work closes the line south of Grove Park.

 

[Stephen42]

Similar trains have run in previous timetables, the change being removal of Hither Green stops and the evening ones running from Charing Cross instead of Cannon Street. There are only two each peak and they only seem present to increase capacity, both the morning ones are marked as standing room only at least one midweek day.

The slower trains may be busier as they start at Sevenoaks and they call at Lewisham, redirecting the faster ones to Bromley North will put more pressure on those Sevenoaks trains as several more stations would then need to use those services. Midweek the Sevenoaks trains are all at least 10 coaches and one at 12 coaches so little scope to lengthen.

 

[30907]

Grove Park seems the busiest south of Lewisham, but many are interchanging, so I'm wondering if it'd make more sense for this to be a Bromley North service instead? So Charing Cross, Waterloo East, London Bridge, Grove Park, Sundridge Park, Bromley North, using the same paths on the main line

According to the figures (if I've got them right!), GPK has 2m "entries and exits" compared with 300k for the two branch stations, so only about 10% of the passengers are interchanging.
Chislehurst and Elmstead Woods between them have about 1.6m, Petts Wood 1.3m, so the case for a dedicated BMN service is very poor.

Unfortunately, the branch has been declining ever since I first used it over 50 years ago. When regular peak through trains last ran around 1980 they were relatively quiet (and guaranteed you a seat boarding at Waterloo E or London Br!) so it is not surprising they disappeared altogether to benefit busier stations. Sorry, I really don't see that changing.

 

[PGAT]

According to the figures (if I've got them right!), GPK has 2m "entries and exits" compared with 300k for the two branch stations, so only about 10% of the passengers are interchanging.
Chislehurst and Elmstead Woods between them have about 1.6m, Petts Wood 1.3m, so the case for a dedicated BMN service is very poor.

Using this website https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/ which contains passenger flow data only about 8% of passengers from Bromley North are travelling to Grove Park and 1% from Sundridge Park. So everybody else will have to change at Grove Park.

 

[brad465]

I would love a Bromley North to CHX service, but it seems like one of those railway ideas that seem simple, but would require breaking several elemental laws of the universe to actually implement. You'd need a grade-separated junction at Grove Park at least, and I don't think there's the space for it.

A grade separated junction wouldn’t be required to access the fast lines as the connection already exists. The only reason through services do not run was because the paths were deemed better suited for other services

Or more realistically smoothening the junction on and off the branch to have a higher line speed so trains clear it quicker. At the moment I believe it's 20mph, if it increased to 40mph services could approach at a higher speed and accelerate away towards London without being interrupted by a speed restriction.

 

[LLivery]

I would love a Bromley North to CHX service, but it seems like one of those railway ideas that seem simple, but would require breaking several elemental laws of the universe to actually implement. You'd need a grade-separated junction at Grove Park at least, and I don't think there's the space for it.

If more Bromley to City services are needed, which I'm sure there is demand for, surely they could just go via Catford into Blackfriars? That said, I've commuted on the Catford Loop a few times this year in the morning and turns into a bit of a mess when you have a slow Thameslink right in front of a semi-fast to Victoria.

I don't think you'd need grade separation if you directed the current fast Orpington peak service, as they cross between Hither Green and Grove Park. Rather than crossing into the slows, it diverge to/from Bromley North instead. I might be missing something though.

They could go Blackfriars I guess, but they aren't half slow. Could a fast be worked out?

I think through services to Bromley North have run occasionally when engineering work closes the line south of Grove Park.

Indeed, I've used one a few years ago

According to the figures (if I've got them right!), GPK has 2m "entries and exits" compared with 300k for the two branch stations, so only about 10% of the passengers are interchanging.
Chislehurst and Elmstead Woods between them have about 1.6m, Petts Wood 1.3m, so the case for a dedicated BMN service is very poor.

Unfortunately, the branch has been declining ever since I first used it over 50 years ago. When regular peak through trains last ran around 1980 they were relatively quiet (and guaranteed you a seat boarding at Waterloo E or London Br!) so it is not surprising they disappeared altogether to benefit busier stations. Sorry, I really don't see that changing.

Makes sense seeing how far Grove Park is from other stations. The branch now does have 4 car trains, I'm sure it used to be 2 car 466s? But surely the case is pretty poor atm because the service offering isn't great. I struggle to see how a few fast peak services to/from Bromley towards/from The City wouldn't be popular.

Similar trains have run in previous timetables, the change being removal of Hither Green stops and the evening ones running from Charing Cross instead of Cannon Street. There are only two each peak and they only seem present to increase capacity, both the morning ones are marked as standing room only at least one midweek day.

The slower trains may be busier as they start at Sevenoaks and they call at Lewisham, redirecting the faster ones to Bromley North will put more pressure on those Sevenoaks trains as several more stations would then need to use those services. Midweek the Sevenoaks trains are all at least 10 coaches and one at 12 coaches so little scope to lengthen.

Tbh, I haven't used all of the fasts, but the ones I have haven't been full at all. Not saying they're not valuable, but maybe it's luck of the draw. The Lewisham call really is noticeably important and will only get worse.

 

[brad465]

Makes sense seeing how far Grove Park is from other stations. The branch now does have 4 car trains, I'm sure it used to be 2 car 466s? But surely the case is pretty poor atm because the service offering isn't great. I struggle to see how a few fast peak services to/from Bromley towards/from The City wouldn't be popular.

At the end of the last decade it was 2 car 466s, but due to safety issues, I believe DOO-related, they were the only units allowed to run on the whole branch in passenger service, to the point a derogation to PRM legislation was made to keep 466s doing the service for a year, then 465s took over from the end of 2020. I wouldn't be surprised if any through services would be capped at 4 car length for this length (even though the platforms are longer than this), unless further work was done or a guard was introduced. If there was demand for a through service, then 4 cars is unlikely to be enough for Grove Park and Bromley North combined (although it maybe that 5 or 6 cars is enough, especially as a 5 car 707 or 376 has good standing room).

 

[30907]

Using this website https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/ which contains passenger flow data only about 8% of passengers from Bromley North are travelling to Grove Park and 1% from Sundridge Park. So everybody else will have to change at Grove Park.

I simply assumed everybody was changing- it is still a relatively small number.

I struggle to see how a few fast peak services to/from Bromley towards/from The City wouldn't be popular.

When they did run, they weren't hugely popular, as I stated. Of course a better service would attract people, but would it be enough to justify reducing services at significantly busier stations elsewhere?

 

[PGAT]

When they did run, they weren't hugely popular, as I stated. Of course a better service would attract people, but would it be enough to justify reducing services at significantly busier stations elsewhere?

The reduced services in question would be two trains a day in each direction, serving four stations which already see a relatively good frequency. The loss in capacity could be compensated for by reducing the length of the diverted service and attaching it to a busier train.

 

[LLivery]

At the end of the last decade it was 2 car 466s, but due to safety issues, I believe DOO-related, they were the only units allowed to run on the whole branch in passenger service, to the point a derogation to PRM legislation was made to keep 466s doing the service for a year, then 465s took over from the end of 2020. I wouldn't be surprised if any through services would be capped at 4 car length for this length (even though the platforms are longer than this), unless further work was done or a guard was introduced. If there was demand for a through service, then 4 cars is unlikely to be enough for Grove Park and Bromley North combined (although it maybe that 5 or 6 cars is enough, especially as a 5 car 707 or 376 has good standing room).

I had forgot the reason, of course it was, thanks.

I simply assumed everybody was changing- it is still a relatively small number.

When they did run, they weren't hugely popular, as I stated. Of course a better service would attract people, but would it be enough to justify reducing services at significantly busier stations elsewhere?

How long ago was this, though?

It being a reduction of 2/3 trains in each peak for south of Grove Park, while still serving Grove Park, I don't think it'd be horrendous. The Hayes Line gets a worse deal with serious crowding. Having said that, if passenger numbers rise, then I can see it being a problem.

Dare I say, if possible (I doubt it myself) you could look at getting a via Chatham service to make a call at Chislehurst to compensate.

All of this is half serious, but intrigued on people's opinions

 

[30907]

How long ago was this, though?

Through peak services ceased in the early 80s when the final morning train was diverted to start from Orpington (?Petts Wood). Offpeak went in 1967.
There may be more apartment blocks and fewer Victorian villas in the area now, but I would be surprised if the balance of commuting has shifted much from

It being a reduction of 2/3 trains in each peak for south of Grove Park, while still serving Grove Park, I don't think it'd be horrendous....q
Having said that, if passenger numbers rise, then I can see it being a serious problem.

Quite. It would be popular at Grove Park, of course, arriving with half the seats empty

The loss in capacity could be compensated for by reducing the length of the diverted service and attaching it to a busier train.

On the Up Fast at Hither Green in the morning peak? Hmm...

As a general point - the present peak timetable is "offpeak service with extras" and I doubt is the perfect solution. It would only take a decision to cut the fast stops at Orpington in the peak (as was always the case before 2020) to fill up those extras.

 

[PGAT]

On the Up Fast at Hither Green in the morning peak? Hmm...

You know what I mean, not splitting/attaching en-route but allocating rolling stock differently

 

[30907]

You know what I mean, not splitting/attaching en-route but allocating rolling stock differently

No, I misunderstood you, sorry.