Network South East branding in retrospective

[yorksrob]

Chiltern had a variant of it that looked more modern for a bit, blue around the windows and a red stripe underneath. The red was removed at the last change though.

I think the red still works as a stripe, or a motif, however I'd move away from painting whole things with it.

Blue lamp posts would probably look ok, and that's a colour used by a lot of TOCs anyway.

Or maybe even a light grey for some things. But yes, blue would be a good shout.

I'd have made more of the route badges, which would have been well embedded in the public consciousness by now. You might even be able to do a line in Kent Link "merch", for example.

 

[AM9]

I think that if NSE were around today, I might tone down the red on the lamp posts/canopy stanchions etc, however I'd keep a version of the toothpaste livery. Red, white and blue never ages !

The impression that it gives certainly does age. In the '80s fly the flag ultra patriotism was rife with the Thatcher Government, in the 2020s, it comes across as more jingoistic tuning in to GB News, GB Railways et al.

 

[yorksrob]

The impression that it gives certainly does age. In the '80s fly the flag ultra patriotism was rife with the Thatcher Government, in the 2020s, it comes across as more jingoistic tuning in to GB News, GB Railways et al.

I'd say rather more subtle and less bombastic than the name "Great British Railways". I'd rather they just adopted "British Rail" instead.

 

[birchesgreen]

My choice for a GB Railways livery (as i've mentioned elsewhere) would be an updated NSE livery, still looks great and works well on pretty much everything its applied to (which in NSE's case was a wide variety of rolling stock ranging from pre-war ex tube stock to modern locos!)

I agree with the overuse of red on stations though, especially when it started fading.

 

[nw1]

The impression that it gives certainly does age. In the '80s fly the flag ultra patriotism was rife with the Thatcher Government, in the 2020s, it comes across as more jingoistic tuning in to GB News, GB Railways et al.

Mind you, I'd say the 2019-24 Tory governments of Johnson, Truss and Sunak were more "fly the flag ultra-patriotism" than anything we had in the 80s (bar the period around the Falklands war)!


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

I'd say rather more subtle and less bombastic than the name "Great British Railways". I'd rather they just adopted "British Rail" instead.

Agree. They brought back GWR and LNER - why not British Rail? Or even British Railways if they think that 50s-60s heritage is better than 70s-90s heritage.

Most nearby countries use a name which means something like "X Railways" or "X National Railway Company", where X is the country. "Deutsche Bahn" for example. Simple, straightforward. Does what it says on the tin.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

@nw1 @ScottGallagher - NSE were in fact tending towards a more blue image shortly before they got broken up for privatisation - so you were both spot on; take a look at the Kensington Olympia footbridge here, which was one of the final bits of branding they carried out.

I'd say it suited the branding quite well...?

Indeed - ineresting to see that.

 

[birchesgreen]

Most nearby countries use a name which means something like "X Railways" or "X National Railway Company", where X is the country. "Deutsche Bahn" for example. Simple, straightforward. Does what it says on the tin.

So what should the railways of Great Britain be called in that case then? How about Great British Railways? Honest, some of y'all get too hung up the name. Not everything has to be some kind of binary nationalist culture war issue.

I'm not patriotic at all before anyone says.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I hope that you have a copy of the Network SouthEast Story by Chris Green and Mike Vincent, published in 2014.

Sadly, I do not, was a broke graduate when it came out!

@nw1 @ScottGallagher - NSE were in fact tending towards a more blue image shortly before they got broken up for privatisation - so you were both spot on; take a look at the Kensington Olympia footbridge here, which was one of the final bits of branding they carried out.

I'd say it suited the branding quite well...?

Kind of validates the point I made upthread that perhaps the original class 482 livery might have been applied to NSE stock eventually. Particularly newer build stock.

In fact, of note, even the train in my profile picture, the unbuilt Universal Networker, has a slightly different livery to the normal NSE colour scheme

 

[AM9]

Sadly, I do not, was a broke graduate when it came out!



Kind of validates the point I made upthread that perhaps the original class 482 livery might have been applied to NSE stock eventually. Particularly newer build stock.

In fact, of note, even the train in my profile picture, the unbuilt Universal Networker, has a slightly different livery to the normal NSE colour scheme

As a livery, I've always favoured green based ones, (not malachite green, - I'm not an SR zealot but to be fair, they did have the earliest experience of large EMU fleets. I think one of the best post-privatisation schemes was the green/grey of London Midland. It looked good on everything from the Desiros to Sprinters and even the class 319s on the Stourbridge Town branch.
In general, green as a rolling stock paint colour generally weathers well, notably the LT country bus and Green Line fleets vs. the exact same models that populated the central bus fleet in red.

 

[nw1]

So what should the railways of Great Britain be called in that case then? How about Great British Railways? Honest, some of y'all get too hung up the name. Not everything has to be some kind of binary nationalist culture war issue.

I'm not patriotic at all before anyone says.

I wasn't "militantly" arguing the issue, just agreeing with @yorksrob that British Rail(ways) without the "Great" would be my preference.

I don't really have a strong opinion on it, though!

 

[birchesgreen]

I wasn't "militantly" arguing the issue, just agreeing with @yorksrob that British Rail(ways) without the "Great" would be my preference.

I don't really have a strong opinion on it, though!

Well i wasn't really aiming at anyone in particular, i know some people do seem to have a strong aversion to it, i suspect its because they associate GB ____ with The Johnson. Which i guess is quite understandable.

 

[Electrostar387]

Firmly in the camp of not having a particularly strong opinion on the name either, but I think over time it will naturally end up being referred to by passengers and staff as “GBR” or “British Rail” even if the official name is “Great British Railways”.

After all, how many people in day-to-day life refer to Nationwide as “Nationwide Building Society”?

I think in terms of the livery and corporate branding though, nothing wrong with using a NSE inspired Red, White and Blue so long as it’s done well and doesn’t end up being naff. Amtrak seems to do a very good job of using these colours to its advantage on locos and trains etc. (such as the new Acela).

 

[yorksrob]

So what should the railways of Great Britain be called in that case then? How about Great British Railways? Honest, some of y'all get too hung up the name. Not everything has to be some kind of binary nationalist culture war issue.

I'm not patriotic at all before anyone says.

Funnily enough, I do consider myself quite patriotic, however I still prefer plain old BR.

I apologise for bringing us all down the old GBR rabbit hole though

 

[Mikey C]

@nw1 @ScottGallagher - NSE were in fact tending towards a more blue image shortly before they got broken up for privatisation - so you were both spot on; take a look at the Kensington Olympia footbridge here, which was one of the final bits of branding they carried out.

I'd say it suited the branding quite well...?

That Silverlink livery on the 313 has aged far worse than the NSE livery!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

As a livery, I've always favoured green based ones, (not malachite green, - I'm not an SR zealot but to be fair, they did have the earliest experience of large EMU fleets. I think one of the best post-privatisation schemes was the green/grey of London Midland. It looked good on everything from the Desiros to Sprinters and even the class 319s on the Stourbridge Town branch.
In general, green as a rolling stock paint colour generally weathers well, notably the LT country bus and Green Line fleets vs. the exact same models that populated the central bus fleet in red.

Yes they work well. I am an SR zealot myself but not sure if a renewed Southern Railway with green stretching from Exeter to Margate will work nowadays. Too much variation in rolling stock design.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

I wasn't "militantly" arguing the issue, just agreeing with @yorksrob that British Rail(ways) without the "Great" would be my preference.

I don't really have a strong opinion on it, though!

Same, I'm surprised Labour hasn't changed it back to British Rail yet. It's a much gentler form of civic patriotism rather than jingoistic patriotism - if that's the angle you want.

 

[nw1]

Yes they work well. I am an SR zealot myself but not sure if a renewed Southern Railway with green stretching from Exeter to Margate will work nowadays. Too much variation in rolling stock design.

And that was the big problem with the method of privatisation. The franchises were too small and "bitty".

To me it would have made far more sense, if we had to have privatisation at all, to have one big Southern Railway franchise with a common design of new EMU stock (with 'express' and 'stopper' variants which could run in multiple) once the CIGs, VEPs and CEPs had reached the end of their lives. With a dual-voltage variant to allow for Thameslink to be part of the integrated network.

It would have meant we'd still have had essentially an Integrated Southern Railway of the sort that existed during the Big Four and BR, with the flexibility that a common stock design could have produced.

 

[Gareth]

The island is called Great Britain. It's "Great" as in "big", not as in "very good". Great Orme is a similar use of the word. Gran Canaria is a foreign example.

Great British Railways (GBR) was chosen to be similar but not identical to British Rail (BR). See Japan Rail (JR) not being Japan National Railways (JNR) as a similar example.

Remember, the original Tory plan wasn't actual renationalisation but rather privatisation 2.0.

 

[AM9]

Great British Railways (GBR) was chosen to be similar but not identical to British Rail (BR).

There's no problem with using British Rail of Railways. It's not as if the Government is prevented from using it by a passing-off or copyright issue. I wondier if many in thye UK will call it that or even BR.

 

[yorksrob]

The island is called Great Britain. It's "Great" as in "big", not as in "very good". Great Orme is a similar use of the word. Gran Canaria is a foreign example.

Great British Railways (GBR) was chosen to be similar but not identical to British Rail (BR). See Japan Rail (JR) not being Japan National Railways (JNR) as a similar example.

Remember, the original Tory plan wasn't actual renationalisation but rather privatisation 2.0.

If you were desperate to distance yourself from BR, something like Rail Britain, or the British Railway Company might have worked.

I could only imagine the Conservative party being so opposed to BR on ideological grounds though, given their history.

 

[AM9]

If you were desperate to distance yourself from BR, something like Rail Britain, or the British Railway Company might have worked.

I could only imagine the Conservative party being so opposed to BR on ideological grounds though, given their history.

Well it's new name isn't in their gift now.

 

[Gareth]

If you were desperate to distance yourself from BR, something like Rail Britain, or the British Railway Company might have worked.

I could only imagine the Conservative party being so opposed to BR on ideological grounds though, given their history.

What's so better about those examples over GBR?

 

[yorksrob]

Well it's new name isn't in their gift now.

Fortunately not

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

What's so better about those examples over GBR?

Less bombastic, more businesslike, less like copying from a cake programme (which I enjoy, to be honest ) But I believe that a great public service should be above mere public entertainment.

For that, British Rail just seems to tick all boxes for me.

 

[Gareth]

Oh yeah. I can't stand that bombastic, far right, Channel 4 baking programme either.

 

[yorksrob]

Oh yeah. I can't stand that bombastic, far right, Channel 4 baking programme either.

I love that Channel 4 baking programme (it has a member of the BRB on it afterall).

I just don't think it sets quite the right tone for Britain's Railway.

 

[Gareth]

Whereas I think it's a mostly made up moral panic that 99.9% of the public won't care about.

Look, if it's because you liked British Rail, have fond memories of it and feel it's a missed opportunity not to bring it back as was, that's fair enough but let's not a massive issue out of something that plainly isn't.

 

[yorksrob]

Whereas I think it's a mostly made up moral panic that 99.9% of the public won't care about.

Look, if it's because you liked British Rail, have fond memories of it and feel it's a missed opportunity not to bring it back as was, that's fair enough but let's not make massive issues out of nothing.

You're right. I like the fact that British Rail reflects the railway as it should have continued. I do have fond memories of original BR.

Whether we go with BR or GBR, I still like the fact that it contains the word "British", which is anathema to some of those I disagree with.

I think BR's more snappy than GBR.

 

[Gareth]

That's fair.

 

[yorksrob]

That's fair.

I agree though, there's an element of unnecessary moral panic against the concept of Britain these days.

We shouldn't be afraid to use the term.

 

[43096]

If you were desperate to distance yourself from BR, something like Rail Britain, or the British Railway Company might have worked.

I could only imagine the Conservative party being so opposed to BR on ideological grounds though, given their history.

Well, you could use GB Rail, but a certain freight operator might have something to say about possible association.
Or RailUK, but then you'd have to have a moderator on every train to make sure no-one went off topic and replace "See it, say it, sort it" with messages about using the approved ticketing supplier only.

 

[4SubAsociation]

Still flying the flag for NSE, the Class 457 based at East Kent Railway, freshly repainted between April and July this year.

The repaint appeal is still open if anyone wants to donate, the roof is one area which requires repainting. - https://www.gofundme.com/f/class-45...&utm_medium=copy_link_all&utm_source=customer

 

[Recessio]

Still flying the flag for NSE, the Class 457 based at East Kent Railway, freshly repainted between April and July this year.

The repaint appeal is still open if anyone wants to donate, the roof is one area which requires repainting. - https://www.gofundme.com/f/class-45...&utm_medium=copy_link_all&utm_source=customer

Gosh. NSE livery does look a bit garish when it's freshly painted and viewed through a 2020s eye!