GN Semi-fasts Stuck Behind Moorgate Stopper

[Elybob]

Happened to me again today. Late-running GN semi-fast to Cambridge arrives at Finsbury Park after WGC stopper.

Instead of using the fasts after Ali Pali, it remains behind the stopper all the way to WGC, adding another 25 minutes on to the journey. No announcement from driver the entire journey which is also poor.

What is the logic behind this? It's infuriating.

 

[JonathanH]

What is the logic behind this? It's infuriating.

Was there enough time for the service to get onto the fasts and back onto the slow at Potters Bar without hugely obstructing the fast line services, and getting past the Welwyn stopper?

 

[Elybob]

Was there enough time for the service to get onto the fasts and back onto the slow at Potters Bar without hugely obstructing the fast line services, and getting past the Welwyn stopper?

Ive had this happen to me before on late night services where no fast trains have passed us, so I don't think that's the reason

Before the Ali Pali stop was added this never happened

 

[800001]

ARS signalling probably running keeping trains on booked route, with signaller not realising, possibly due to dealing with other things.

 

[bramling]

Before the Ali Pali stop was added this never happened

It did, but not always. Ever since May 18 the 2Cxx services have been booked almost exclusively on the slow lines, and more often than not signallers maintain this.

Having said that, even before May 18 I can recall some infuriating journeys where the fast lines could have been used but weren’t.

I agree the Alexandra Palace stop is unhelpful. FWIW I feel it should never have been added, and should be removed.

 

[Steve Harris]

ARS signalling probably running keeping trains on booked route, with signaller not realising, possibly due to dealing with other things.

Or probably DRS (which is a form of ARS) which is not being Dynamic!!

There has been several threads of late about the southern section of the ECML and it might be a good idea for posters to read this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-signalling-rocs.259348/page-5#post-6562267
as a reference first.

As from King's Cross to Stoke tunnel is now controlled from York, so presumably the whole route now has DRS ? Would be great if someone can confirm.

 

[800001]

Or probably DRS (which is a form of ARS) which is not being Dynamic!!

There has been several threads of late about the southern section of the ECML and it might be a good idea for posters to read this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-signalling-rocs.259348/page-5#post-6562267
as a reference first.

As from King's Cross to Stoke tunnel is now controlled from York, so presumably the whole route now has DRS ? Would be great if someone can confirm.

There is a variation of systems, ARS, DRS and SARS. Possibly more but they are the 3 I know.

Peterborough area is DRS.
Kings Cross area is SARS.

 

[Steve Harris]

There is a variation of systems, ARS, DRS and SARS. Possibly more but they are the 3 I know.

Peterborough area is DRS.
Kings Cross area is SARS.

Thanx for the info.

 

[jon0844]

ARS signalling probably running keeping trains on booked route, with signaller not realising, possibly due to dealing with other things.

There are many cases now where the road will be given to an ECS move (a terminated SEV-WGC) back to Hornsey, even if it's late (quite frequent given the distance travelled) and there's a Moorgate service ready to go. Worse still, if the train has arrived late it obviously needs to be terminated and the driver has to change ends and set up, so it isn't even a case of hoping it will go quick. It can end up going out 4-5 minutes late, and then the Moorgate is now 7-8 minutes down.

I have to assume the system is setting the route automatically without anyone realising that a late inbound service can't turn around in a few seconds, and ECS moves can more easily be delayed than one in service - and cancelling it to give the road to the Moorgate train. Clearly the stoppers being delayed then leads to the risk of semi-fast services getting caught behind further up the line. (Edited for clarity)

 

[800001]

There are many cases now where the road will be given to an ECS move (a terminated SEV-WGC) back to Hornsey, even if it's late (quite frequent given the distance travelled) and there's a Moorgate service ready to go. Worse still, if the train has arrived late it obviously needs to be terminated and the driver has to change ends and set up, so it isn't even a case of hoping it will go quick. It can end up going out 4-5 minutes late, and then the Moorgate is now 7-8 minutes down.

I have to assume this the system working automatically without anyone realising that a late inbound service can't turn around in a few seconds, and ECS moves can more easily be delayed than one in service. Clearly the stoppers being delayed then leads to the risk of semi-fast services getting caught behind further up the line.

ARS stands for Automatic route setting!

 

[Elybob]

It did, but not always. Ever since May 18 the 2Cxx services have been booked almost exclusively on the slow lines, and more often than not signallers maintain this.

Having said that, even before May 18 I can recall some infuriating journeys where the fast lines could have been used but weren’t.

I agree the Alexandra Palace stop is unhelpful. FWIW I feel it should never have been added, and should be removed.

What was the logic behind the Ali Pali stop? Because I never see many people get on or off

 

[jon0844]

What was the logic behind the Ali Pali stop? Because I never see many people get on or off

I think it was a logical stop to improve connections between the ECML and the loop, and use up time otherwise padded out for when the timetable expected the 2R/L/C services to run through the core. It seems better to have that stop than it sitting at Potters Bar and Finsbury Park (on the down). Not sure how much of an impact there is on the up.

Plus, Alexandra Palace now has regular events with very large crowds (day and night). The station can become quite dangerous at these times when it's only 6 car 717s turning up. The 8 car services, especially when 700s, have been a godsend.

When there aren't events or the weather isn't great, no, it isn't massively busy but it can be extremely busy at times. Maybe there's a case to not stop all the trains there, or not all day, but then you risk confusing both the passengers and drivers.

 

[bramling]

I think it was a logical stop to improve connections between the ECML and the loop, and use up time otherwise padded out for when the timetable expected the 2R/L/C services to run through the core. It seems better to have that stop than it sitting at Potters Bar and Finsbury Park (on the down). Not sure how much of an impact there is on the up.

Plus, Alexandra Palace now has regular events with very large crowds (day and night). The station can become quite dangerous at these times when it's only 6 car 717s turning up. The 8 car services, especially when 700s, have been a godsend.

When there aren't events or the weather isn't great, no, it isn't massively busy but it can be extremely busy at times. Maybe there's a case to not stop all the trains there, or not all day, but then you risk confusing both the passengers and drivers.

I’m a bit more cynical about this, and can’t help but wonder if the extra stop is a way of trying to make up for the halving of the 717 services during off-peak times.

On balance I feel the operational flexibility of being able to use the fast lines greatly outweighs the value of the extra stop. And, especially given that essentially everything from the likes of Knebworth, Welwyn Garden City (etc) now calls at the likes of Hatfield and Potters Bar, the extra stop is not particularly welcome on a service which has already become significantly slowed-down compared to 317s in the 1990s.

If the Moorgate services return to 4tph then I can see absolutely no justification for the Alexandra Palace stop. 10tph London absolutely isn’t needed.

 

[jon0844]

I’m a bit more cynical about this, and can’t help but wonder if the extra stop is a way of trying to make up for the halving of the 717 services during off-peak times.

On balance I feel the operational flexibility of being able to use the fast lines greatly outweighs the value of the extra stop. And, especially given that essentially everything from the likes of Knebworth, Welwyn Garden City (etc) now calls at the likes of Hatfield and Potters Bar, the extra stop is not particularly welcome on a service which has already become significantly slowed-down compared to 317s in the 1990s.

If the Moorgate services return to 4tph then I can see absolutely no justification for the Alexandra Palace stop. 10tph London absolutely isn’t needed.

(bit in bold) Well, yes, that's another benefit.

I'm not a fan of the extra stop, but as it hasn't slowed the journey down it doesn't really matter. Of course it's all about perception, and there is another option; adjust the timings so the service is faster!

I will concur that it does really help with the crowds. Before it became part of the timetable it was quite common to put stop orders on these services northbound (for those going south, a lot of people just walk to Wood Green).

 

[Elybob]

I’m a bit more cynical about this, and can’t help but wonder if the extra stop is a way of trying to make up for the halving of the 717 services during off-peak times.

On balance I feel the operational flexibility of being able to use the fast lines greatly outweighs the value of the extra stop. And, especially given that essentially everything from the likes of Knebworth, Welwyn Garden City (etc) now calls at the likes of Hatfield and Potters Bar, the extra stop is not particularly welcome on a service which has already become significantly slowed-down compared to 317s in the 1990s.

If the Moorgate services return to 4tph then I can see absolutely no justification for the Alexandra Palace stop. 10tph London absolutely isn’t needed.

Particularly with Wood Green a 10 minute walk away

Couldn't it just have additional services during events ala Northumberland Park / Wembley Stadium?

 

[MPW]

Has anyone every seen a london rail map which makes it easy to see which routes have fast/semi-fast sharing tracks with stopping services?

I think I know all the routes where it applies in my corner of London (SE), and believe it also happens on SW via Richmond. Anywhere else?

Do I understand correctly that the situation mentioned in post 1 of this thread is not scheduled that way?

 

[Elybob]

Still happening, currently crawling at a snails pace through New Southgate and now 30 minutes delayed as a result just because

Drives me mad and happens far too often.