Thoughts/Rules On Signallers Providing Booked Assistance?

[Kath123]

Hi

I am visually impaired.

I am just wondering if a train station has a signaller what are the thoughts/rules about them being able to provide booked assistance if Ticket Office staff busy or station unmanned except for signaller.

I think I discussed this with an Assistance Team a few years ago and if my memory serves me correctly I was told they aren’t technically meant to do it so I guess that means there can’t be a regular agreement?

I don’t mind who provides my assistance as long as someone does it and if the signaller was allowed to do it I understand they are often there later hours than what the station Ticket Office is manned so it would give me more flexibility to travel.

The only thing is I would need the signaller to provide sighted guide assistance for me around the station and not just get me on and off the train so I don’t know if this complicates things further.

Thanks.

PS Out of interest who do train signallers work for - is it the train companies such as GWR or is it Network Rail?

 

[357]

Signallers work for Network Rail, and unfortunately are normally at their busiest when there are trains around, such as the one you'd be getting on/off.

 

[transportphoto]

Extremely unlikely. As @357 points out, signallers are at their busiest when there is a train in/approaching their patch.

They need to be present to actually signal trains, activate/monitor level crossings, answer the telephone, deal with any emergent issues that arise, amongst other responsibilities.

They can’t pop out for ten mins to help someone, I’m sorry.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If they injured themselves while providing assistance, the railway would be shut
That's the reason drivers shouldn't render assistance - if they put their back out while dealing with a ramp, the train would be stuck there

 

[transportphoto]

That's the reason drivers shouldn't render assistance - if they put their back out while dealing with a ramp, the train would be stuck there

The same argument here could easily apply to a guard becoming injured whilst undertaking their routine duties.

 

[43066]

If they injured themselves while providing assistance, the railway would be shut
That's the reason drivers shouldn't render assistance - if they put their back out while dealing with a ramp, the train would be stuck there

Indeed, especially as drivers aren’t trained to provide assistance. There’s also the risk that something goes wrong and the person they’re assisting ends up being injured, in which case the driver would potentially end up in hot water.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2024 ==

am just wondering if a train station has a signaller what are the thoughts/rules about them being able to provide booked assistance if Ticket Office staff busy or station unmanned except for signaller.

Keep in mind that signallers work for NR and man signal boxes, not stations. Hence there’s no such concept as a station being unmanned except for the signaller; it would be an unmanned station which just happened to have a signal box next to it!

Really the onus is on TOCs (and whatever they become under GBR) to provide sufficient appropriately trained staff where needed.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The same argument here could easily apply to a guard becoming injured whilst undertaking their routine duties.

Yes, but the train could still be moved by being terminated and run ECS

 

[coppercapped]

If they injured themselves while providing assistance, the railway would be shut
That's the reason drivers shouldn't render assistance - if they put their back out while dealing with a ramp, the train would be stuck there

Hmm, special pleading! Drivers are obviously made of sterner stuff in Germany...

The wheelchair assistance ramp in the Munich S-Bahn trains is stored in one of the stand-back partitions at the passenger doors immediately behind the drivers' cab. Anyone using a wheel chair waits on the platform at the train stop marker[1]. The door to the driver's cab opens into the passenger space so the driver takes the couple of steps to the storage space, takes the ramp out and places it between the train and the platform and opens it. The wheelchair drives onto the train, the driver folds the ramp up and replaces it in its storage, re-enters the cab and drives off. The whole process takes less than a minute.

In all my time in Germany I have never heard of a driver being put out of action by a wheelchair ramp.

[1] The platform train information displays show which of three possible train lengths the train will be and the stop markers on the platform are clearly visible. If the wheelchair is not by the correct marker the train will not wait.

Yes, but the train could still be moved by being terminated and run ECS

If this were to be done then it is absolutely terrible customer service. Tipping passengers out of a perfectly functional train — possibly in the middle of nowhere — is simply not acceptable. Call for help for the injured person by all means, but the show must go on.

 

[coxxy]

That's the reason drivers shouldn't render assistance - if they put their back out while dealing with a ramp, the train would be stuck there

Jesus wept... Its a ramp.

 

[transportphoto]

Call for help for the injured person by all means, but the show must go on.

[Un]fortunately if one of the two safety critical members of staff on board the train (driver and/or guard) become injured and unable to fulfil their role, the show cannot go on. The train may be terminated unless a replacement is immediately available.

 

[endofthetunnel]

Even if the signallers worked for the same company and their terms and training could be changed to allow them to offer assistance - there are only a very small number of stations which have signal boxes on the platforms where the signaller would be close enough to help.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Jesus wept... Its a ramp.

There are different types of ramp for different stock. The ramps need to be placed correctly. Its not that simple

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

There are different types of ramp for different stock. The ramps need to be placed correctly. Its not that simple

That’s what training is for.

 

[Gloster]

As someone who was a signalman forty years ago, the attitude was ‘of course we will if need be’. There were some curmudgeons who wouldn’t and we would normally leave it to the station staff: it was their job and we weren’t going to poach. However, I have scooted out of my box, not so far from Yeovil, to lift one very large gentleman out of the van (wheelchairs, complete with occupant, often travelled in the van on first generation stock): the guard and Senior Railman decided that two people wouldn’t be enough, so the driver and I joined in. (It was still quite a job.)

But then we all worked for one railway, reckoned that it was all part of the job (and that management would probably swing it if we did hurt ourselves) and just saw it as normal. But BR believed in providing a service, that word that is now much too dirty: use ‘profit for us’ instead.

 

[Daniel]

But then we all worked for one railway, reckoned that it was all part of the job (and that management would probably swing it if we did hurt ourselves) and just saw it as normal.

Indeed, it still works that way on the tube. I've certainly left the control room to respond to a person under a train, and often ask drivers to assist visually impaired customers to a place of safety on the platform while they await station staff colleagues to arrive.

 

[coxxy]

There are different types of ramp for different stock. The ramps need to be placed correctly. Its not that simple

As an ex guard, and a current driver. It's very simple. The issue with drivers doing ramps is delays. Nothing more.

 

[43066]

The wheelchair assistance ramp in the Munich S-Bahn trains is stored in one of the stand-back partitions at the passenger doors immediately behind the drivers' cab. Anyone using a wheel chair waits on the platform at the train stop marker[1]. The door to the driver's cab opens into the passenger space so the driver takes the couple of steps to the storage space, takes the ramp out and places it between the train and the platform and opens it. The wheelchair drives onto the train, the driver folds the ramp up and replaces it in its storage, re-enters the cab and drives off. The whole process takes less than a minute.

The OP is asking about the UK railway so I don’t see how procedures in Germany are relevant. That aside, on a lot of UK stock, the wheelchair space isn’t anywhere near the driver’s cab. It might take ten mins for a driver to contact the signaller, key off, walk back, put the ramp down, return to the cab etc. Good luck with that on the former Southern region! In short, the suggestion is completely unworkable across much of the network unless we want to tolerate a great deal more delay. It might be more feasible in Northernland, but those trains have someone else aboard anyway.

There are, or should be, platform staff (or guards) who are much better placed to provide this type of assistance.

If this were to be done then it is absolutely terrible customer service. Tipping passengers out of a perfectly functional train — possibly in the middle of nowhere — is simply not acceptable. Call for help for the injured person by all means, but the show must go on.

The point being made is that if the guard is incapacitated the train can at least be moved out of the way so that other services can continue to run. If the driver is incapacitated the line will be blocked, delaying scores of other trains, and potentially thousands of people, possibly for hours until a relief driver can reach the train. Which of those two scenarios is better for customer service?!

As an ex guard, and a current driver. It's very simple. The issue with drivers doing ramps is delays. Nothing more.

It would also be vigorously opposed by the unions, as a potential route to destaffing. For that reason, coupled with the delay concerns, there is zero chance of this ever happening.

 

[Gloster]

Even though it is not the UK, there is a relevant situation on the Copenhagen S-Tog suburban system. It is part of the job description that the drivers operate the ramps, which are adjacent to the first door, and this involves leaving their cab; they will also, where necessary, assist others into the train. It does not cause delays on a tightly timed system because it was included in the original plan for the new stock 20+ years ago.

 

[coppercapped]

[Un]fortunately if one of the two safety critical members of staff on board the train (driver and/or guard) become injured and unable to fulfil their role, the show cannot go on. The train may be terminated unless a replacement is immediately available.

And what about the passengers left stranded — you know, the people that pay a large proportion of the wages?

 

[leezer3]

It would also be vigorously opposed by the unions, as a potential route to destaffing. For that reason, coupled with the delay concerns, there is zero chance of this ever happening.

And therin lies the problem.
Unfortunately, the union situation on the modern railway is totally and irretrievably broken, and this is classically symptomatic of it.

Whilst unions are inherently a good thing, sometimes there comes a point where they do more harm than good.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If this were to be done then it is absolutely terrible customer service. Tipping passengers out of a perfectly functional train — possibly in the middle of nowhere — is simply not acceptable. Call for help for the injured person by all means, but the show must go on.

Safety trumps customer service. A train is not perfectly functional if the required member(s) of staff are not available

 

[Kath123]

Signallers work for Network Rail, and unfortunately are normally at their busiest when there are trains around, such as the one you'd be getting on/off.

Extremely unlikely. As @357 points out, signallers are at their busiest when there is a train in/approaching their patch.

They need to be present to actually signal trains, activate/monitor level crossings, answer the telephone, deal with any emergent issues that arise, amongst other responsibilities.

They can’t pop out for ten mins to help someone, I’m sorry.

If they injured themselves while providing assistance, the railway would be shut
That's the reason drivers shouldn't render assistance - if they put their back out while dealing with a ramp, the train would be stuck there

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I asked the question on here because a guard asked a signaller to do my assistance yesterday evening and apparently they often do that at the station I was getting off at. The member of staff who was at the Ticket Office was meant to meet me but for whatever reason on this occasion they didn’t.

Similar has happened a couple of times in the past (when either ticket office staff couldn’t meet me or it was unexpectedly unstaffed). The signaller appeared happy to do the assistance but probably had little choice.

The station does have a maximum of only two passenger trains an hour running through it and the signaller said they have to pass a token to the driver anyway for them to proceed as it is a single line track.

I don’t know what to do about this experience. As I got my assistance but from the signaller (after the guard helped me get off the train) should I just leave it or should I be raising it because the guard had to ask the signaller to step in because the member of staff from the Ticket Office didn’t meet me? The Ticket Office was open (as I used the loo in there afterwards) but didn’t come across a member of staff.

The signaller described the staffing at the station as ‘haphazardous’ currently so I’m guessing we may end up in a similar situation again.

 

[43066]

And what about the passengers left stranded — you know, the people that pay a large proportion of the wages?

What about them? If the relevant staff members aren’t able to continue to operate the train safely that’s the end of it. You’ll also find wages are paid by employers who don’t take revenue risk, and in turn are paid by the DfT to run the service, not by passengers.

And therin lies the problem.
Unfortunately, the union situation on the modern railway is totally and irretrievably broken, and this is classically symptomatic of it.

Whilst unions are inherently a good thing, sometimes there comes a point where they do more harm than good.

Hardly. No union would ever support a proposal that could lead to destaffing and, in any case, any union response is purely hypothetical as this proposal is utterly impractical for the reasons outlined above, and nobody AFAIK is seriously suggesting it be implemented.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I asked the question on here because a guard asked a signaller to do my assistance yesterday evening and apparently they often do that at the station I was getting off at. The member of staff who was at the Ticket Office was meant to meet me but for whatever reason on this occasion they didn’t.

Similar has happened a couple of times in the past (when either ticket office staff couldn’t meet me or it was unexpectedly unstaffed). The signaller appeared happy to do the assistance but probably had little choice.

The station does have a maximum of only two passenger trains an hour running through it and the signaller said they have to pass a token to the driver anyway for them to proceed as it is a single line track.

I don’t know what to do about this experience. As I got my assistance but from the signaller (after the guard helped me get off the train) should I just leave it or should I be raising it because the guard had to ask the signaller to step in because the member of staff from the Ticket Office didn’t meet me? The Ticket Office was open (as I used the loo in there afterwards) but didn’t come across a member of staff.

The signaller described the staffing at the station as ‘haphazardous’ currently so I’m guessing we may end up in a similar situation again.

A little odd for the guard to ask that and the signaller would have been quite within their rights to refuse to assist. I wouldn’t necessarily complain about the guard or signaller’s actions, as it sounds like they were doing their best in the circumstances, but by all means raise a complaint about the ticket office being unstaffed. Unfortunately this seems to increasingly be an issue and it is those who need assistance who lose out the most.

 

[WAB]

I don’t know what to do about this experience. As I got my assistance but from the signaller (after the guard helped me get off the train) should I just leave it or should I be raising it because the guard had to ask the signaller to step in because the member of staff from the Ticket Office didn’t meet me? The Ticket Office was open (as I used the loo in there afterwards) but didn’t come across a member of staff.

I would be very reluctant to mention the signaller at all, as Network Rail might take a very dim view of the signaller leaving the box for that reason and for undertaking a duty they’re not trained to do.

This could end up with the guard and signaller getting into trouble for going beyond usual procedure to make sure you got the assistance you needed. This could then affect you in future instances where station staff are unable to assist, and the signallers are no longer willing to stick their necks out to help you.

This doesn’t apply if it’s an approved arrangement, but I’d be surprised if that was the case.

 

[43066]

I would be very reluctant to mention the signaller at all, as Network Rail might take a very dim view of the signaller leaving the box for that reason and for undertaking a duty they’re not trained to do.

This could end up with the guard and signaller getting into trouble for going beyond usual procedure to make sure you got the assistance you needed. This could then affect you in future instances where station staff are unable to assist, and the signallers are no longer willing to stick their necks out to help you.

This doesn’t apply if it’s an approved arrangement, but I’d be surprised if that was the case.

Indeed. I’m surprised the guard didn’t simply delay the train and escort the OP through the station themselves. That would have been perfectly justifiable and would have avoided putting the signaller into an awkward position.

 

[Kath123]

A little odd for the guard to ask that and the signaller would have been quite within their rights to refuse to assist. I wouldn’t necessarily complain about the guard or signaller’s actions, as it sounds like they were doing their best in the circumstances, but by all means raise a complaint about the ticket office being unstaffed. Unfortunately this seems to increasingly be an issue and it is those who need assistance who lose out the most.

Thanks for the reply. Yes I certainly am not going to complain about the guard or signaller as they gave me the help I need.

I have been battling for this stations Ticket Office to be staffed properly over a number of years. It is often not staffed it’s scheduled hours.

I have repeatedly raised issues about staffing and assistance at the station but I’m reluctant to continue because it makes me feel uncomfortable/scared continuing to use the station because I’m worried what they think of me when I complain. It strains relations with the station and obviously I need their help - I don’t want to be at odds with them. I feel tired. I feel like getting the station staffed properly is a battle I’ll never win.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2024 ==

I would be very reluctant to mention the signaller at all, as Network Rail might take a very dim view of the signaller leaving the box for that reason and for undertaking a duty they’re not trained to do.

This could end up with the guard and signaller getting into trouble for going beyond usual procedure to make sure you got the assistance you needed. This could then affect you in future instances where station staff are unable to assist, and the signallers are no longer willing to stick their necks out to help you.

This doesn’t apply if it’s an approved arrangement, but I’d be surprised if that was the case.

Thanks for your reply. I very much hear and understand what you are saying.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2024 ==

Indeed. I’m surprised the guard didn’t simply delay the train and escort the OP through the station themselves. That would have been perfectly justifiable and would have avoided putting the signaller into an awkward position.

This has happened a few times previously too but then I think it puts the guard in a difficult position. As the guard who last did this said they did it because safety is paramount and takes priority but the train company won’t like the train running late because it costs them. Someone said to me previously train companies are charged for every minute the train is late. Is that right?

 

[74A]

I don't think the railway has to provide a member of staff at the station to escort you about

 

[43066]

Thanks for the reply. Yes I certainly am not going to complain about the guard or signaller as they gave me the help I need.

I have been battling for this stations Ticket Office to be staffed properly over a number of years. It is often not staffed it’s scheduled hours.

I have repeatedly raised issues about staffing and assistance at the station but I’m reluctant to continue because it makes me feel uncomfortable/scared continuing to use the station because I’m worried what they think of me when I complain. It strains relations with the station and obviously I need their help - I don’t want to be at odds with them. I feel tired. I feel like getting the station staffed properly is a battle I’ll never win.

You absolutely should continue to complain and make as much noise as possible! I commend you for doing so and I don’t know a single member of staff who wouldn’t join me.

Front line staff will always support you in this, as ultimately you’re complaining about not enough of them being present. Remember it was public pressure from passengers such as yourself that thwarted the mass destaffing and ticket office closures the last government tried to bring about.

This has happened a few times previously too but then I think it puts the guard in a difficult position. As the guard who last did this said they did it because safety is paramount and takes priority but the train company won’t like the train running late because it costs them. Someone said to me previously train companies are charged for every minute the train is late. Is that right?

Operators are indeed charged by the minute for delays they are attributed to them, but traincrew have wide discretion to act as they need to in the interests of safety, and a visually impaired person whose assistance hasn’t materialised is absolutely an example of where this discretion could and should be used.

In those situations delay costs simply don’t come into it. Similarly, as a driver, I have stopped out of course to allow wheelchair users off who have been overcarried due to a cock up meaning they’ve been left on my train. In these situations it isn’t a case of asking permission, you simply inform the signaller and control what you’re doing and why.

 

[Kath123]

I don't think the railway has to provide a member of staff at the station to escort you about

Well that’s what they offer as part of the booked Passenger Assist service for visually impaired passengers and it is a very valuable service for people like me.

Using the Passenger Assist service we book help for things like getting to the station exit or help navigating the station to change trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2024 ==

You absolutely should continue to complain and make as much noise as possible! I commend you for doing so and I don’t know a single member of staff who wouldn’t join me.

Front line staff will always support you in this, as ultimately you’re complaining about not enough of them being present. Remember it was public pressure from passengers such as yourself that thwarted the mass destaffing and ticket office closures the last government tried to bring about.



Operators are indeed charged by the minute for delays they are attributed to them, but traincrew have wide discretion to act as they need to in the interests of safety, and a visually impaired person whose assistance hasn’t materialised is absolutely an example of where this discretion could and should be used.

In those situations delay costs simply don’t come into it. Similarly, as a driver, I have stopped out of course to allow wheelchair users off who have been overcarried due to a cock up meaning they’ve been left on my train. In these situations it isn’t a case of asking permission, you simply inform the signaller and control what you’re doing and why.

Thank you for your support and re-assurance that frontline staff will support me. That means a lot.

Also thank you for sharing your experiences as a driver - helps a lot, very useful information.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I don't think the railway has to provide a member of staff at the station to escort you about

The Equality Act 2010 would disagree with you