Racism in issuing Penalty Fare Notice

[HeyCiao]

Hello everyone,

I wonder if anyone can help me with this situation..

At the end of May, I was travelling for work with a group of colleagues to Virginia Water station from London.
The majority of us, didn't buy a ticket and used either their Oyster cards or contactless payment. However, Virginia Water does not accept these, so once arrived at the station we couldn't get out from the gates and asked for help to 3 inspectors that were there. We explained the situation: we thought that contactless and Oyster were accepted, and that search on Google is misleading, as it's saying that the station in 2024 is served by contactless.
The inspectors were understanding, and did not issue any PFN, just requested to pay the price of the ticket. EXCEPT for myself and another lady, and we happened to be both East-Asian. When I asked to the inspector why I was being fined unlike my colleagues, he also started shouting at me. I then turned to his colleague to ask for an explanation, and he just replied that each inspector works independently, so he couldn't object to his colleague's decision, and advise to appeal online. Our working colleagues also tried to help by making complaints, but they were still advised to make a formal appeal.
The other lady and I appealed, and we were unsuccessful on the first and second stage. The letters we received say that we were correctly fined and they are not responsible of the inspector's behaviours, and if they thought we were correctly fined even if from the same group of people, then we should adhere to that.

We are furious, as this is obviously a blatant case of racism - alongside the way I was treated for only asking explanations.
We can now make a final appeal, and would love to ask if there's anyone that can help with advise?

Thanks so much!

 

[Wolfie]

Hello everyone,

I wonder if anyone can help me with this situation..

At the end of May, I was travelling for work with a group of colleagues to Virginia Water station from London.
The majority of us, didn't buy a ticket and used either their Oyster cards or contactless payment. However, Virginia Water does not accept these, so once arrived at the station we couldn't get out from the gates and asked for help to 3 inspectors that were there. We explained the situation: we thought that contactless and Oyster were accepted, and that search on Google is misleading, as it's saying that the station in 2024 is served by contactless.
The inspectors were understanding, and did not issue any PFN, just requested to pay the price of the ticket. EXCEPT for myself and another lady, and we happened to be both East-Asian. When I asked to the inspector why I was being fined unlike my colleagues, he also started shouting at me. I then turned to his colleague to ask for an explanation, and he just replied that each inspector works independently, so he couldn't object to his colleague's decision, and advise to appeal online. Our working colleagues also tried to help by making complaints, but they were still advised to make a formal appeal.
The other lady and I appealed, and we were unsuccessful on the first and second stage. The letters we received say that we were correctly fined and they are not responsible of the inspector's behaviours, and if they thought we were correctly fined even if from the same group of people, then we should adhere to that.

We are furious, as this is obviously a blatant case of racism - alongside the way I was treated for only asking explanations.
We can now make a final appeal, and would love to ask if there's anyone that can help with advise?

Thanks so much!

There are two separate issues here:

Firstly the issuing of a penalty fare. That is indeed down to the discretion of the individual staff member. Unfortunately you committed the offence and likely will have to pay.

Secondly the apparent racism. It is unacceptable for the rail company to wash their hands of the issue. They employ (either directly or via contract) the staff. If your colleagues are prepared to give statements setting out the issue in the way that you describe then l would suggest that you write to the MD of the company copied to your MP setting out what happened. Explicitly state that unless you receive a satisfactory response you will refer the issue to the Equality Commission requesting that they investigate.

Be aware though that if your colleagues were polite and acquiescent and you were loud and hostile (and there are a couple of things that hint at that in your post) you likely talked yourself into the penalty fare. Many rail staff apply an "attitude test".

Edited to add:
Racism is one of those allegations which are sometimes thrown around when people are unhappy with the outcome of their interaction with others in positions of authority. To be very clear l am not saying that happened here.

I have never worked for the railway. The funniest incident that l saw as a passenger was on a train from Shrewsbury to Birmingham. A ticket check was undertaken and one guy had no ticket. He was told that he was going to get a penalty fare and responded "Is that because l'm black?". The guard doing the check was himself black (and actually more melanated than the individual).

 

[najaB]

We are furious, as this is obviously a blatant case of racism - alongside the way I was treated for only asking explanations.

Was it though? Could there perhaps have been other reasons that you were issued a penalty fare and the others not?

We can now make a final appeal, and would love to ask if there's anyone that can help with advise?

Keep in mind that, even if the RPI was being racist, that doesn't excuse the fact that you weren't able to present a ticket for the journey you were making.

 

[HeyCiao]

Was it though? Could there perhaps have been other reasons that you were issued a penalty fare and the others not?

Keep in mind that, even if the RPI was being racist, that doesn't excuse the fact that you weren't able to present a ticket for the journey you were making.

I can't see any other reasons for issuing a penalty fare to myself and the other East Asian lady, and the others not. As I said, we were a group, and the inspectors clearly understood that. We were all heading to the Studios and a minibus was waiting outside to pick us up.
And all in the same group had the same issue: not having a ticket, and only using a contactless payment (one was also using his Oyster card). We genuinely made the same mistake, but only two were punished for that.

Why people who committed the same mistake and were in the same situation are being treated differently?

 

[furlong]

that search on Google is misleading, as it's saying that the station in 2024 is served by contactless.

Did you get a screenshot, or can you reproduce this and show us which web page?

 

[Wolfie]

I can't see any other reasons for issuing a penalty fare to myself and the other East Asian lady, and the others not. As I said, we were a group, and the inspectors clearly understood that. We were all heading to the Studios and a minibus was waiting outside to pick us up.
And all in the same group had the same issue: not having a ticket, and only using a contactless payment (one was also using his Oyster card). We genuinely made the same mistake, but only two were punished for that.

Why people who committed the same mistake and were in the same situation are being treated differently?

Re your last para a possible answer is because they reacted differently to being challenged.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can't see any other reasons for issuing a penalty fare to myself and the other East Asian lady, and the others not. As I said, we were a group, and the inspectors clearly understood that. We were all heading to the Studios and a minibus was waiting outside to pick us up.
And all in the same group had the same issue: not having a ticket, and only using a contactless payment (one was also using his Oyster card). We genuinely made the same mistake, but only two were punished for that.

Why people who committed the same mistake and were in the same situation are being treated differently?

It’s hard to say as none of us were there, but the penalty fare was correctly issued in all likelihood. If you can post a copy of the notice with your details redacted we can see if a procedural error has been made which may settle an appeal more quickly.

 

[najaB]

I can't see any other reasons for issuing a penalty fare to myself and the other East Asian lady, and the others not. As I said, we were a group, and the inspectors clearly understood that.

That actually makes it less rather than more likely that it was because of racism. Think about it, assuming that the revenue inspector is racist, who would they be more likely to demonstrate that prejudice against: someone travelling by themselves, or someone travelling as part of a group who would be likely to call them out on their behaviour?

Obviously, I wasn't there so can't speak from a position of any certainty.

 

[Wolfie]

Did you get a screenshot, or can you reproduce this and show us which web page?

I had a bit of a nose....

There are a number of websites, including at least one ".gov.uk" which say either "by December 24" or "by the end of this year".

I haven't found anything official (there are media channels) just using "2024".

 

[furlong]

The train companies have undertaken to ensure that staff apply the published rules in a consistent and fair way ( iv)a) ), so it is certainly reasonable to expect them to be able justify any obvious inconsistency such as the one you describe and if they cannot, to expect them to correct this.

 

[HeyCiao]

There are two separate issues here:

Firstly the issuing of a penalty fare. That is indeed down to the discretion of the individual staff member. Unfortunately you committed the offence and likely will have to pay.

Secondly the apparent racism. It is unacceptable for the rail company to wash their hands of the issue. They employ (either directly or via contract) the staff. If your colleagues are prepared to give statements setting out the issue in the way that you describe then l would suggest that you write to the MD of the company copied to your MP setting out what happened. Explicitly state that unless you receive a satisfactory response you will refer the issue to the Equality Commission requesting that they investigate.

Be aware though that if your colleagues were polite and acquiescent and you were loud and hostile (and there are a couple of things that hint at that in your post) you likely talked yourself into the penalty fare. Many rail staff apply an "attitude test".

Edited to add:
Racism is one of those allegations which are sometimes thrown around when people are unhappy with the outcome of their interaction with others in positions of authority. To be very clear l am not saying that happened here.

I have never worked for the railway. The funniest incident that l saw as a passenger was on a train from Shrewsbury to Birmingham. A ticket check was undertaken and one guy had no ticket. He was told that he was going to get a penalty fare and responded "Is that because l'm black?". The guard doing the check was himself black (and actually more melanated than the individual).

Thanks for your response.

I wasn't loud, and was waiting quietly for my turn to be issued my receipt. I was queueing behind my colleagues, and so did the other lady.
Other colleagues were behind me, waiting in turn. Each one of us was waiting quietly, we were all having the same issue.
Soon after giving my details, the inspector printed the receipt and I could read the amount of the fine. Up until then, I was sure that the receipt would say that I needed to pay £12.40, which is the price of the ticket, following what the inspector said: "I understand your mistake, I won't fine you this time, and only ask to pay the price of the train ticket".
When I saw that instead in my ticket there was a fine (£112.40) I asked for explanations and the inspector said firmly: "Just sign". And I asked again, but he was hostile.
I then asked for a moment and turn to his colleague who was serving my other colleagues too, and asked why I was being fined. This inspector was more likely to speak with me, and he just said that he was sorry, but couldn't do more, as it is under one's discretion, and that I could only appeal. While speaking with him though, the inspector was shouting at me, though I couldn't get the words as I was talking with his colleague.
I turned again to the inspector that was serving me, and offered to pay on the spot and info on how to appeal (it's my first time receiving a PFN, so I thought I would have to pay right away, then ask for a refund through an appeal). He then explained me how to pay and appeal online.

There was a minibus outside picking us up (as I said, we were a group of colleagues heading to work), and asked to the others if anyone was being fined. No one was at that moment, so two guys offered to help me and we went back to the station and spoke to one of the inspectors. The advise was the same, to appeal. He also seemed pretty positive as he understood that it wasn't fair.
At that time, I didn't think it was a case of racism, it wouldn't even cross my mind, just thought there was a huge mistake.

When I got in the minibus, I looked again at my PFN ticket and it was saying that I refused to sign, which is not true. I just wasn't prompted to after asking explanations, and amidst the confusion, I didn't even think about it.

Then another lady, the other and only East Asian one like me, approached me in the minibus and told me that she was fined too. (She was queuing behind me, and I think she was one the last ones being served by an inspector).

That's when I thought that it was a case of racism. So again, we all did not have a ticket and explained the situation to the inspectors, and were queueing as part of the same group of people.

Hope that explains the situation better.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

I had a bit of a nose....

There are a number of websites, including at least one ".gov.uk" which say either "by December 24" or "by the end of this year".

I haven't found anything official (there are media channels) just using "2024".

Yes, you're right, and that's where we all made a mistake. I genuinely mean ALL of us, as that's what we explained to the inspectors, that we had a look online and misunderstood.
I am happy to pay a fine for this mistake, just not happy for the different treatment.

 

[gray1404]

Please post of a copy of the penalty fare notice.

 

[HeyCiao]

That actually makes it less rather than more likely that it was because of racism. Think about it, assuming that the revenue inspector is racist, who would they be more likely to demonstrate that prejudice against: someone travelling by themselves, or someone travelling as part of a group who would be likely to call them out on their behaviour?

Obviously, I wasn't there so can't speak from a position of any certainty.

I see your point, but in that moment, no one thought about a case of racism. Up until, when we got on the minibus we realised that the only two people fined and treated rudely were East-Asians.
We, East Asians, are known as quiet and polite people, so it didn't even cross my mind that it was a case of racism, just thought there was a mistake (although I felt there was hostility towards me from the inspector that served me). This is to say that, because we are perceived as quiet people who don't seek fights, that might explain why the thought of discrimination came after.

Please see the response I gave to another member of the forum in this thread, as I explained the situation better.

 

[najaB]

When I saw that instead in my ticket there was a fine (£112.40) I asked for explanations and the inspector said firmly: "Just sign".

I agree that we need to see the paperwork because I don't recognise the £112.40 figure.

 

[HeyCiao]

I agree that we need to see the paperwork because I don't recognise the £112.40 figure.

It's the price of the ticket + the fine
So £12.40 + £100 which is the standard fine from what I understood

 

[tskir]

@HeyCiao, there's a question which I don't think was covered, or maybe I didn't see it: Was it the case that you and the other lady were issued PFNs by the same inspector; *and* that all other people in the group were handled by someone else (not this particular inspector)?

• If the answer is yes, this can just mean that this inspector is more hardline/grumpy and decided to not apply discretion and issue PFNs instead. Ethnicity might be irrelevant, or at least, it'd be impossible to prove anything.
• Howeve, if the answer is no, then it means the same inspector treated people differently and I tend to agree that this was a case of racism. In this case I even think you may have grounds to take action against the rail company and the employees.

 

[Darandio]

I see your point, but in that moment, no one thought about a case of racism. Up until, when we got on the minibus we realised that the only two people fined and treated rudely were East-Asians.

You say here that you didn't realise until you got on the minibus that only two people were fined. In the original post you say you already knew and were questioning it at the time. These are at odds with each other.

Just trying to piece it together.

 

[HeyCiao]

@HeyCiao, there's a question which I don't think was covered, or maybe I didn't see it: Was it the case that you and the other lady were issued PFNs by the same inspector; *and* that all other people in the group were handled by someone else (not this particular inspector)?

• If the answer is yes, this can just mean that this inspector is more hardline/grumpy and decided to not apply discretion and issue PFNs instead. Ethnicity might be irrelevant, or at least, it'd be impossible to prove anything.
• Howeve, if the answer is no, then it means the same inspector treated people differently and I tend to agree that this was a pretty a case of racism. In this case I even think you may have grounds to take action against the rail company and the employees.

There were 3 inspectors and some in the group were served by the one that issued the fine.
So not all other people were served by the other two, although both myself and the other lady were served by the same inspector.

 

[gray1404]

Does your notice also contain details of how to appeal?

 

[furlong]

The point here is that on the face of what we have been told so far, discretion was not used in a "consistent and fair way" so this should definitely form one element of an appeal. The company might be able to provide a satisfactory explanation for not treating members of the group equally and must be given the opportunity to do that, but if it fails, this leaves a suspicion that race might indeed have been a contributing factor and that may need to be investigated.

 

[HeyCiao]

You say here that you didn't realise until you got on the minibus that only two people were fined. In the original post you say you already knew and were questioning it at the time. These are at odds with each other.

Just trying to piece it together.

I said that I was questioning my fine on the spot.
Then yes, the other lady and I appealed.

Saying that only me and that lady were fined was just the summary: a group of people travelling without ticket weren't issued a fine, except for two individuals who happened to be the only East-Asians of the group.

Then if I have to tell you every step of the story, that is what happened:
- Group of people travelling without ticket
- Inspectors explaining their understanding and issuing PFN with only the price of the ticket to be paid
- Me queueing for the receipt of PFN
- Me realising I was getting a fine
- Me asking for explanations
- Me going to the minibus and ask for confirmation if I was the only one getting fined
- Me realising I was the only one. And going back to the station with two colleagues willing to help
- Me going back to the minibus, getting in, and being approached by another East Asian lady telling me she was fined too

Hope this recap helps, sorry for my English

 

[MotCO]

I see your point, but in that moment, no one thought about a case of racism. Up until, when we got on the minibus we realised that the only two people fined and treated rudely were East-Asians.
We, East Asians, are known as quiet and polite people, so it didn't even cross my mind that it was a case of racism, just thought there was a mistake (although I felt there was hostility towards me from the inspector that served me). This is to say that, because we are perceived as quiet people who don't seek fights, that might explain why the thought of discrimination came after.

Please see the response I gave to another member of the forum in this thread, as I explained the situation better.

Did the same inspector handle everyone in the group? Was the other East Asian lady seen by the same or a different inspector?

 

[HeyCiao]

Does your notice also contain details of how to appeal?

Yes, the appeal needs to be done online or by post.
I did online twice, and was unsuccessful on both stages.
Now I can only appeal one last time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

Did the same inspector handle everyone in the group? Was the other East Asian lady seen by the same or a different inspector?

There were 3 inspectors and some in the group were served by the one that issued the fine.
So not all other people were served by the other two, although both myself and the other lady were served by the same inspector.

 

[Wolfie]

Yes, the appeal needs to be done online or by post.
I did online twice, and was unsuccessful on both stages.
Now I can only appeal one last time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==



There were 3 inspectors and some in the group were served by the one that issued the fine.
So not all other people were served by the other two, although both myself and the other lady were served by the same inspector.

I would suggest that you appeal by post, linking your case with that of the Asian lady also fined and providing as much evidence (receipts, written statements) as possible that others travelling with you who were in exactly the same situation were treated differently. That lets the train operator know that they potentially have a world of hurt heading their way.

 

[najaB]

Me going back to the minibus, getting in, and being approached by another East Asian lady telling me she was fined too

Were you two the only East Asians in the group?

 

[John R]

If you were travelling with a group of employees then I wonder whether your employer could take up the apparent inconsistency with, in the first instance, the train company, and if not resolved, by their MP?

I think a challenge coming from a business might have more weight, and be treated more seriously.

 

[HeyCiao]

Were you two the only East Asians in the group?

Yes.

I would suggest that you appeal by post, linking your case with that of the Asian lady also fined and providing as much evidence (receipts, written statements) as possible that others travelling with you who were in exactly the same situation were treated differently. That lets the train operator know that they potentially have a world of hurt heading their way.

We already made a sort of joined appeal and provided evidence with the receipts of the other people, showing they weren't fined, but still our appeal got rejected

 

[Cuthbert]

The person that Penalty Fared you. Did he sell the other passengers a ticket after he dealt with you and the other lady?

I'm asking because I can guess two colleagues just used discretion and he Penalty Fared both of you. He most of then noticed what was happening and let the other person off. This is terrible either all should have been PFd or all should have been sold a ticket.
As others said get statements off of your friends and send it to Customer Services asking for help. I know our CS get in touch with our manager and she/he asked for a report on why. If multiple statements are seen CCTV is then requested.
All involved are questioned.
Did they have Body Worn Cameras? Did he use them?

 

[MotCO]

Yes, the appeal needs to be done online or by post.
I did online twice, and was unsuccessful on both stages.
Now I can only appeal one last time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==



There were 3 inspectors and some in the group were served by the one that issued the fine.
So not all other people were served by the other two, although both myself and the other lady were served by the same inspector.

Was the image you attached the only thing you received? Usually there is something which states the station you were travelling to and from, the reason for a penalty being issued, date, time etc Can we see the full thing you were given in case there was an error made by the inspector which means it is not valid, and you would not have to pay.

 

[najaB]

Was the image you attached the only thing you received? Usually there is something which states the station you were travelling to and from, the reason for a penalty being issued, date, time etc Can we see the full thing you were given in case there was an error made by the inspector which means it is not valid, and you would not have to pay.

I think the full PFN is in post #15.