Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Goldfish62]

What happens with regards the current reduced (Covid) service levels. Our local (Epsom via Worcester Park) service is still only two per hour, eight-car, where they have always been four per hour, ten-car. Will the diagrams return to normal or has that boat already sailed? The passenger numbers have definitely returned. Most trains are rammed. Hopefully, SWR will be one of the first to come back under government control.

Indeed, SWR will no longer have the excuse that they can't increase services due to a shortage of rolling stock.

If things were to carry on as is with the current SWR management I dare say they'd use the increased capacity of the new trains as an excuse not to increase services. However, with it all bus certain that SWR will transfer to OLR, or the NTO (National Train Operator) as Modern Railways now refers to it, in May hopefully we'll see a more positive attitude. For reference, South Eastern have a substantial timetable uplift in December, returning all Metro stations to a minimum 4tph off-peak following representations from the GLA. I'm sure SWR will come under similar pressure.

 

[class701]

701 driver training is due to roll-out this week. Does this look like a pivitol moment? where the rest of the 701 fleet finally enter service over the next three months. Surely it will only accelerate once enough drivers have been trained. Some say it could still take a year to complete. What happens with regards the current reduced (Covid) service levels. Our local (Epsom via Worcester Park) service is still only two per hour, eight-car, where they have always been four per hour, ten-car. Will the diagrams return to normal or has that boat already sailed? The passenger numbers have definitely returned. Most trains are rammed. Hopefully, SWR will be one of the first to come back under government control.

I just received this from SWR:

Thank you for contacting us.

I’m very pleased to bring you up to date on the progress that’s been made recently towards the roll-out of our Arterio fleet.

As you’ll know we brought our first Arterio into service earlier this year as a soft launch, originally between Waterloo and Windsor & Eton Riverside and later extended to a full day’s service including the Hounslow loop. The feedback we’ve had from colleagues and customers has been very positive and the trains have performed well over an extended period.

In the meantime, we have continued to work in partnership with the trade unions to progress towards the wider phased rollout of the full 90 train fleet.

Just this week, we have reached a key milestone towards achieving this with Mainline Driver training set to begin w/c 28 July. We’re doing this with the support of ASLEF and invitations to attend training for the first of our 700 Drivers who will work Arterios will be sent shortly. Separate to this, we have already made progress with training for Guards and Station colleagues with the support of RMT.

However, I can’t advise the timeline for the rollout of Epsom and Dorking line via Worcester Park as drivers and guards are currently completing their training for each depot.

I hope you find the provided information helpful.

 

[Snow1964]

Yes, training has to lead, as they will need more 701 trained drivers and TMs than the minimum needed for the number of units in passenger service (to provide resilience). Therefore expect a gradual ramp up. Similar to when the class 700s were introduced to Thameslink, to provide a recent and localish example.

Maybe better examples are the class 707 training and rollout on SWT/SWR (about 5 or 6 months from memory), after which they seemed to be used interchangeably with 455s and 456s and 458s

Or perhaps the 707s on South Eastern, which again seemed to be few months.

I realise there is a few new tasks (although these are more understanding the theory of new ways of door working which can be done in a lecture room, than few seconds it takes to learn how to push certain buttons as a practical on the train whilst stationary). This will add a bit of time to process.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Dang I must have been living under a rock, didn't know SWR had 700+ Drivers??

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

I just received this from SWR:

Thank you for contacting us.

I’m very pleased to bring you up to date on the progress that’s been made recently towards the roll-out of our Arterio fleet.

As you’ll know we brought our first Arterio into service earlier this year as a soft launch, originally between Waterloo and Windsor & Eton Riverside and later extended to a full day’s service including the Hounslow loop. The feedback we’ve had from colleagues and customers has been very positive and the trains have performed well over an extended period.

In the meantime, we have continued to work in partnership with the trade unions to progress towards the wider phased rollout of the full 90 train fleet.

Just this week, we have reached a key milestone towards achieving this with Mainline Driver training set to begin w/c 28 July. We’re doing this with the support of ASLEF and invitations to attend training for the first of our 700 Drivers who will work Arterios will be sent shortly. Separate to this, we have already made progress with training for Guards and Station colleagues with the support of RMT.

However, I can’t advise the timeline for the rollout of Epsom and Dorking line via Worcester Park as drivers and guards are currently completing their training for each depot.

I hope you find the provided information helpful.

Fantastic News if it happens. As planned!!

 

[class701]

On a side note, we are already seeing more non-455 and air-conditioned units on the Dorking line on a regular basis. This is in itself an improvement of sorts.

 

[DelW]

701 driver training is due to roll-out this week. Does this look like a pivitol moment? where the rest of the 701 fleet finally enter service over the next three months. Surely it will only accelerate once enough drivers have been trained. Some say it could still take a year to complete. What happens with regards the current reduced (Covid) service levels. Our local (Epsom via Worcester Park) service is still only two per hour, eight-car, where they have always been four per hour, ten-car. Will the diagrams return to normal or has that boat already sailed? The passenger numbers have definitely returned. Most trains are rammed. Hopefully, SWR will be one of the first to come back under government control.

Actually they only went up to ten-car around a decade ago, with the introduction of the 456s (transferred from Southern) and completion of an extensive programme of platform extensions. Prior to that, SWT metro area services including the Epsom line, had been a maximum eight-car railway. SWR used reduced passenger numbers post-covid as an excuse to dump the 456s (and halve the timetable).

 

[43066]

Maybe better examples are the class 707 training and rollout on SWT/SWR (about 5 or 6 months from memory), after which they seemed to be used interchangeably with 455s and 456s and 458s

Or perhaps the 707s on South Eastern, which again seemed to be few months.

The 700s were of a more comparable fleet size to the 701s, but the same basic process applies. You need more crews trained up than you have units in service, so the introduction lags behind the training by necessity.

(although these are more understanding the theory of new ways of door working which can be done in a lecture room, than few seconds it takes to learn how to push certain buttons as a practical on the train whilst stationary)

Any tasks relevant for operation of the train will need to be practiced on the units themselves, which means taking people off roster, and having static units somewhere for them to access. That’s in addition for units being used for handling training etc.

 

[Olivine]

701 driver training is due to roll-out this week. Does this look like a pivitol moment? where the rest of the 701 fleet finally enter service over the next three months. Surely it will only accelerate once enough drivers have been trained. Some say it could still take a year to complete. What happens with regards the current reduced (Covid) service levels. Our local (Epsom via Worcester Park) service is still only two per hour, eight-car, where they have always been four per hour, ten-car. Will the diagrams return to normal or has that boat already sailed? The passenger numbers have definitely returned. Most trains are rammed. Hopefully, SWR will be one of the first to come back under government control.

When TfL get to manage the Windsor side and the remaining 455 routes, more than likely to increase in capacity. They have such tight controls over fare box, and where they won’t need to be going cap in hand to the government because they’ll take over the SWR 701s - they’ll be a slew increase in services (peak, at least).

Obviously this is all conjecture but more than likely for this to go ahead.

 

[weeklycommuter]

When TfL get to manage the Windsor side and the remaining 455 routes, more than likely to increase in capacity. They have such tight controls over fare box, and where they won’t need to be going cap in hand to the government because they’ll take over the SWR 701s - they’ll be a slew increase in services (peak, at least).
Obviously this is all conjecture but more than likely for this to go ahead.

What will happen to the SWR, Southern and Southeastern metro services now is an interesting question. Greater Anglia metro services in Greater London were taken over by TfL so there may be a case for TfL running SWR, Southern and Southeastern metro services too.

 

[Goldfish62]

When TfL get to manage the Windsor side and the remaining 455 routes, more than likely to increase in capacity. They have such tight controls over fare box, and where they won’t need to be going cap in hand to the government because they’ll take over the SWR 701s - they’ll be a slew increase in services (peak, at least).

Obviously this is all conjecture but more than likely for this to go ahead.

Steady on! There's zero funding to do this and as TfL failed to gain control over the GN Moorgate line and SE Metro services when times were good I don't see anything like this happening for a very long time, if ever.

Let's try to get back on-topic anyway.

 

[Lockwood]

Didn't tfl have their eyes on them years ago?

 

[weeklycommuter]

Steady on! There's zero funding to do this and as TfL failed to gain control over the GN Moorgate line and SE Metro services when times were good I don't see anything like this happening for a very long time, if ever.
Let's try to get back on-topic anyway.

Southeastern is operator of last resort, SWR is expected to become part of Great British Railways on 25 May 2025 and Southern on 1 April 2025. Great British Railways will have to decide a way to manage the metro services in and around South London run by these three train operators and handing some or all of them to TfL to run is one possible solution especially as TfL already run some overground trains services in South London. It would also enable the Arterios to be used more widely than just the current SWR metro network. As the start of driver training in the next week has now been confirmed we can be confident that the Arterio trains will be extensively used for the current SWR metro services by early next year when the three train operators and their train services are nationalised into Great British Railways, though I do not know exactly how many drivers will be trained at any one time and so how long it will take for all the drivers to be trained.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

701 driver training is due to roll-out this week. Does this look like a pivitol moment? where the rest of the 701 fleet finally enter service over the next three months

Love the optimism! Given this is the entire suburban fleet, I'd wager it'll be more like 18 months.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

I do not know exactly how many drivers will be trained at any one time

This will largely depend on how many can be released from day to day work on a rolling basis, not forgetting leave, and other commitments, although with a reduced service in operation and a take up of more new drivers IIRC some years ago, that might help speed the process up. Must not forget how many 'trainers' are available as well.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Southeastern is operator of last resort, SWR is expected to become part of Great British Railways on 25 May 2025 and Southern on 1 April 2025. Great British Railways will have to decide a way to manage the metro services in and around South London run by these three train operators and handing some or all of them to TfL to run is one possible solution especially as TfL already run some overground trains services in South London. It would also enable the Arterios to be used more widely than just the current SWR metro network.

I highly doubt RockRail would allow that. TfL have stated they're only looking at some SE Metro services at the moment.
My guess is the entire of SWR will become GBR Wessex, based off the NR region.

 

[Snow1964]

Love the optimism! Given this is the entire suburban fleet, I'd wager it'll be more like 18 months.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

Southeastern is operator of last resort, SWR is expected to become part of Great British Railways on 25 May 2025

I thought Labours idea of GBR and operator of last resort (nationalisation in all but name) is to do it free of cost and liabilities.

Why would they want to take on 455 lease payments in May 2025 if they have to pick up class 701 lease payments. There is likely to be a cost to novate any leases (and I thought based on what they have said that they don't intend to spend to take over an operator).

Would have thought this would be good incentive to not use any 455s after May 2025, especially if that is date leases expire, and lease co could charge hefty extension fee.

 

[markle]

Deleted

 

[TEW]

Love the optimism! Given this is the entire suburban fleet, I'd wager it'll be more like 18 months.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==


This will largely depend on how many can be released from day to day work on a rolling basis, not forgetting leave, and other commitments, although with a reduced service in operation and a take up of more new drivers IIRC some years ago, that might help speed the process up. Must not forget how many 'trainers' are available as well.

Although it might not seem like an issue to outsiders given the sight of 701s all over the SWR network, but there's also not a huge amount of trains available for training at the moment either. There's quite a small fleet covering the service runs, regular PTI test trips, guard and driver training.

 

[weeklycommuter]

The following state 769 drivers to train each taking eight days over two weeks but does not make clear how many drivers in total will be trained in each two weeks.

Depot drivers trained on SWR '701s'

Long-delayed fleet getting closer to introduction

www.modernrailways.com

By PHILIP SHERRATT 16th June 2023

SWR says it has 769 drivers to train, a programme that will take eight days per driver across two concurrent weeks.

Soft launch planned for much-delayed Arterios

South Western Railway to undertake a “soft launch” of its long-delayed Class 701 Arterio electric multiple unit, according to sources at the company.

www.railmagazine.com

An SWR source said that only “a handful” of main line drivers have been trained. RAIL previously reported that depot driver training had begun on April 20. SWR will need to train 769 main line drivers on the Arterios. The training programme takes eight days for each driver.
The £1 billion fleet of 90 Class 701 trains, comprising 750 vehicles, was ordered after First MTR took over the SWR franchise from Stagecoach in 2017. It was intended that a single homogenous fleet of Wimbledon-based trains would replace all existing suburban rolling stock.
SWR said that by early December it had accepted 50 ten-car trains and 14 five-car trains from Alstom. It said the remaining 26 sets “are in various phases between production and acceptance”. Most are currently in storage, including at Long Marston, Eastleigh and Marchwood.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The following state 769 drivers to train each taking eight days over two weeks but does not make clear how many drivers in total will be trained in each two weeks.

This information is outdated now. The final, approved course is 10 days.

 

[Snow1964]

The following state 769 drivers to train each taking eight days over two weeks but does not make clear how many drivers in total will be trained in each two weeks.

Even if course has been extended to 10 days, then number being trained in parallel isn't clear.

Appears SWR is operating about 75-80% of train mileage of five years ago, so unless they used to have nearer 1000 drivers 5 years ago, then there is theoretically lots of spare capacity to put people on training.

With all the thinned out services (now 2 per hour instead of 4 per hour on some routes) should allow plenty of training runs too. Looking at these numbers could potentially have anything upto about 40 units simultaneously being used for training (although in practice will probably be limited by siding space and limited supply of instructors, so more likely to be nearer 10 than 40 trained every fortnight

 

[Goldfish62]

Southeastern is operator of last resort, SWR is expected to become part of Great British Railways on 25 May 2025 and Southern on 1 April 2025.

No. The legislation currently going through parliament enables the operator to last resort to change to the default franchise/contract holder with any future offering to the private sector barred. SWR will therefore transfer to OLR.

SWR, together with C2C, will join SE in being owned by the DfT undoubtedly through a renamed OLR from May and July respectively when they reach their full contract end dates. While the core end date is March 2025 there's no certainty that GTR will join them then. The full contract end date is March 2028.

GBR comes later in the process. The draft enabling bill hasn't even been published yet.

Remember also that without any additional services, once all the 701s are introduced SWR will have a significant surplus of rolling stock as the number ordered was based on the bid timetable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

Even if course has been extended to 10 days, then number being trained in parallel isn't clear.

Appears SWR is operating about 75-80% of train mileage of five years ago, so unless they used to have nearer 1000 drivers 5 years ago, then there is theoretically lots of spare capacity to put people on training.

With all the thinned out services (now 2 per hour instead of 4 per hour on some routes) should allow plenty of training runs too. Looking at these numbers could potentially have anything upto about 40 units simultaneously being used for training (although in practice will probably be limited by siding space and limited supply of instructors, so more likely to be nearer 10 than 40 trained every fortnight

Well, I'm just assuming that the last few years difficulties are behind SWR and they will be able to roll out a successful training programme like every single other train operator manages to do!

 

[weeklycommuter]

The Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill and the Railways Bill were both announced in the King's Speech on 17 July 2024

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6697f5c10808eaf43b50d18e/The_King_s_Speech_2024_background_briefing_notes.pdf

 

[Goldfish62]

The Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill and the Railways Bill were both announced in the King's Speech on 17 July 2024

As I said, the Railways Bill hasn't been published yet. An announcement in the King's Speech isn't the same thing.

The Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill has been published and has its second reading on Monday.

 

[Bigfoot]

Dang I must have been living under a rock, didn't know SWR had 700+ Drivers??

There's many more than 700. Might as well double that figure almost.

 

[NSEWonderer]

There's many more than 700. Might as well double that figure almost.

Wow and I thought 400 on the Lizzy was a lot.

 

[Bald Rick]

Dang I must have been living under a rock, didn't know SWR had 700+ Drivers??

700+ is just thise who will work Arterios. Theres a lot more than that!

Avanti have nearly 600…

When TfL get to manage the Windsor side and the remaining 455 routes, more than likely to increase in capacity. They have such tight controls over fare box, and where they won’t need to be going cap in hand to the government because they’ll take over the SWR 701s - they’ll be a slew increase in services (peak, at least).

Obviously this is all conjecture but more than likely for this to go ahead.

TfL arent goingto manage the Windsor side any time soon. And even if they did, they can‘t change the laws of economics and physics

 

[norbitonflyer]

Didn't tfl have their eyes on them years ago?

Yes they did. But the then Transport Secretary (who was also MP for Epsom) dissuaded the then (Tory) Mayor of London, as he did not want his constiuency's train services potentially coming under the control of a future mayor of a different political persuasion.

 

[Recessio]

Will all drivers train for the 701s, or do certain drivers only cover certain routes/trains?

 

[swr444]

Will all drivers train for the 701s, or do certain drivers only cover certain routes/trains?

just the one's that currently sign 455s. so all "suburban" depots which include woking, guildford and farnham

 

[ScotGG]

For reference, South Eastern have a substantial timetable uplift in December, returning all Metro stations to a minimum 4tph off-peak following representations from the GLA. I'm sure SWR will come under similar pressure.

South Eastern Metro increases are not that substantial and across most - if not all - Metro lines are still someway below 2021 levels. Better than 2023 but that's a low bar.

SE are good at PR but the reality is lines are still pretty lacking and services will continue that way into 2025.