Travel irregularity Greater Anglia settlement - HELP!

[RailManTwoLap]

Hi everyone,

I travel between London Liverpool Street and Cambridge often, so buy open returns. I often don't remember if I've used the return part or not, so try the return at the barrier, and check with the guard if denied. If the guard lets me through then I've always just assumed the ticket is valid.

I now know that is not the case (stupid). I've got a fraud investigation letter from GA. They've sent me evidence of some invalid journeys on the same ticket, but have said they're willing to settle, and want me to confirm I'm willing also so they can send the amount owed.

There are 3 relevant facts:

1: Some of the journeys look like they might have been valid (e.g: ticket purchased 3 mins before boarding the train).

2: For some journeys flagged, I did not actually travel on the wrong ticket. For example, they have me using the invalid ticket one morning, but I bought a valid single 30 mins later, and travelled on that instead. What I think happened is that I pressed the wrong ticket to the gate, realised, and then bought and travelled on a correct ticket.

3: The email is about times I've done this using a ticket purchased a month ago. It's possible I've done it with previous tickets, but I have no idea (again, I had no idea I'd been doing this until the email).

Should I point ANY of this out in the response at all? 1 and 2 could be polite enquiries to help establish the amount owed. 3 would be to avoid a future investigation, if I actually have done this before. My only concern is avoiding prosecution, I will pay whatever the fine is.

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi.

Could you post their email message onto this thread please? That will help the experts to understand what you're dealing with.

Make sure you cover up your personal details and their reference number.

 

[RailManTwoLap]

Certainly - 2 files now attached, first initial email, and their reply to my getting into contact.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone,

I travel between London Liverpool Street and Cambridge often, so buy open returns. I often don't remember if I've used the return part or not, so try the return at the barrier, and check with the guard if denied. If the guard lets me through then I've always just assumed the ticket is valid.

I now know that is not the case (stupid). I've got a fraud investigation letter from GA. They've sent me evidence of some invalid journeys on the same ticket, but have said they're willing to settle, and want me to confirm I'm willing also so they can send the amount owed.

There are 3 relevant facts:

1: Some of the journeys look like they might have been valid (e.g: ticket purchased 3 mins before boarding the train).

2: For some journeys flagged, I did not actually travel on the wrong ticket. For example, they have me using the invalid ticket one morning, but I bought a valid single 30 mins later, and travelled on that instead. What I think happened is that I pressed the wrong ticket to the gate, realised, and then bought and travelled on a correct ticket.

3: The email is about times I've done this using a ticket purchased a month ago. It's possible I've done it with previous tickets, but I have no idea (again, I had no idea I'd been doing this until the email).

Should I point ANY of this out in the response at all? 1 and 2 could be polite enquiries to help establish the amount owed. 3 would be to avoid a future investigation, if I actually have done this before. My only concern is avoiding prosecution, I will pay whatever the fine is.

What is the reason you would not remember if you used the return portion or not? (eg do you sometimes only go one way, or get a lift in a car the other ways for example)? Or do you mean you travel by train both ways but cant' remember which precise open return ticket you use?

so would I be right in saying that if you 'always buy open returns' but then sometimes get muddled up and scan the wrong return (or get through the barriers using the wrong return - ie a return you have previously used) you will have somewhere a return portion of a ticket that you have not had scanned / checked / marked that would appear to the railways company's digital systems as an unused ticket?

If so, that means you did have a valid ticket in your possession as I see it, but you just 'offered up for inspection' (probably in reality just scanned at the barrier) the wrong ticket (ie a ticket that had been previously used) and you were allowed entry to the train when in fact someone should have said along the lines of "this ticket has been scanned and used before you should not be using it now" to which you would probably look again and find an unused portion of a ticket to present, that would then get scanned and you would ne on your way.

Have I understood all this correctly?

If so that is the basis of a defence you could put perhaps forward - ie show them that you had tickets paid for for all the dates of travel and send them digital copies of them

But good luck in explaining this and getting them to understand it....

EDIT
Seeing your upload about using 1 ticket with a ref number quoted by them 6 times I'd perhaps think about giving them the ref numbers of all the return tickets you have had over say the last month with all the ref numbers of every outward and return portion of a ticket so they can check when / if they were used on their records (ie scanned)

But I'd wait for at least 24 hours before replying to see if others have helpful comments

If you just keep using the same ticket 6 times I am sure you can see why this has flagged an alert from them - only you know if you really had 5 other tickets for the remaining occasions, which are presumably unused, in which case being able to prove to them that you had these might be a useful line of defence.

 

[Southern Beau]

Or is there a pattern of buying:
- 1 x open return
- And then a number of additional outward singles

 

[skyhigh]

I travel between London Liverpool Street and Cambridge often, so buy open returns.

Do you make the return journey on the same day? If so, they may wonder why you have been buying the considerably more expensive Anytime Return as opposed to the Anytime Day Return.

Particularly if you have Open Returns bought in both directions i.e. the Outward legs both to London and Cambridge or lots of Singles in the other direction they may suspect that you've been using them as a discounted season ticket.

 

[RailManTwoLap]

Or is there a pattern of buying:
- 1 x open return
- And then a number of additional outward singles

It's basically this. I am pretty disorganized. I get an open return that's usually off-peak, realise when I get to the station later that I'll miss the off-peak window, so buy an additional on-peak single. I then forget I've done this and it ends up with me just not realising I've already used the return part at some point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

Do you make the return journey on the same day? If so, they may wonder why you have been buying the considerably more expensive Anytime Return as opposed to the Anytime Day Return.

Particularly if you have Open Returns bought in both directions i.e. the Outward legs both to London and Cambridge or lots of Singles in the other direction they may suspect that you've been using them as a discounted season ticket.

No I rarely travel back the same day. I just go there pretty frequently, but nowhere near enough to justify a season ticket

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

I'm honestly not sure how I've managed to do this, which won't exactly help my defence. I know that some of the journeys they've flagged I have actually made using a valid ticket. However, if I point this out, are they more likely to just say we can have that debate in court? The same question applies to asking if some of the journeys are valid. I am far more concerned with avoiding prosecution than paying a fine.

To that end, should I point out this might have happened before (I don't think it has, but I've made this bad of a mistake, it's possible I have before also) - would much rather deal with that now than then contacting me again later and treating it as a second offence, which I imagine would be dealt with more harshly. Or just respond to what they sent?

 

[WesternLancer]

There are 3 relevant facts:

1: Some of the journeys look like they might have been valid (e.g: ticket purchased 3 mins before boarding the train).

2: For some journeys flagged, I did not actually travel on the wrong ticket. For example, they have me using the invalid ticket one morning, but I bought a valid single 30 mins later, and travelled on that instead. What I think happened is that I pressed the wrong ticket to the gate, realised, and then bought and travelled on a correct ticket.

3: The email is about times I've done this using a ticket purchased a month ago. It's possible I've done it with previous tickets, but I have no idea (again, I had no idea I'd been doing this until the email).

Should I point ANY of this out in the response at all? 1 and 2 could be polite enquiries to help establish the amount owed. 3 would be to avoid a future investigation, if I actually have done this before. My only concern is avoiding prosecution, I will pay whatever the fine is.

seems like the above are the nubs of your query

See what others think but I would think if you can prove to them with decent evidence that you DID have valid tickets then it might be worth trying to do that

BUT
the I think the offence is 'travelling without a valid ticket' so if you stepped on board the train and only had the ticket that you had used before then they could in theory prosecute you (but they would have to prove that you did that which usually means you got stopped by a member of staff and questions either on the train or at a barrier by staff there or a 'revenue blockade' where they stop and scan everyone's tickets. Which raises the question as to whether they actually have enough evidence to mount a prosecution in court if they chose to do so (though I note you very much want to avoid a court prosecution so this will no doubt affect your view on what action to take....no doubt why you have come here for some advice on best options available!

 

[RailManTwoLap]

seems like the above are the nubs of your query

See what others think but I would think if you can prove to them with decent evidence that you DID have valid tickets then it might be worth trying to do that

BUT
the I think the offence is 'travelling without a valid ticket' so if you stepped on board the train and only had the ticket that you had used before then they could in theory prosecute you (but they would have to prove that you did that which usually means you got stopped by a member of staff and questions either on the train or at a barrier by staff there or a 'revenue blockade' where they stop and scan everyone's tickets. Which raises the question as to whether they actually have enough evidence to mount a prosecution in court if they chose to do so (though I note you very much want to avoid a court prosecution so this will no doubt affect your view on what action to take....no doubt why you have come here for some advice on best options available!

Thank you. Seems like politely pointing out that I had some valid tickets (although not for all the journeys they've said) might be OK.

Would anyone be willing to chime in on whether I should mention the possibility of this happening previously? It might not have done, I'd just rather avoid a second investigation later if it has. I imagine best course is just to respond to the current investigation, but not sure what the best move is with these train companies.

 

[island]

It's basically this. I am pretty disorganized. I get an open return that's usually off-peak, realise when I get to the station later that I'll miss the off-peak window, so buy an additional on-peak single. I then forget I've done this and it ends up with me just not realising I've already used the return part at some point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==


No I rarely travel back the same day. I just go there pretty frequently, but nowhere near enough to justify a season ticket

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

I'm honestly not sure how I've managed to do this, which won't exactly help my defence. I know that some of the journeys they've flagged I have actually made using a valid ticket. However, if I point this out, are they more likely to just say we can have that debate in court? The same question applies to asking if some of the journeys are valid. I am far more concerned with avoiding prosecution than paying a fine.

I'm sorry if this is a bit direct, but none of what you've said passes the sniff test. It reads as an elaborately constructed story to try and explain away the fact that you are using the return legs of tickets for multiple journeys, either intentionally or recklessly as to whether the ticket has been reused or not.

It should be noted that tendering an invalid ticket for your journey whilst also holding a valid ticket in your pocket has been held to come within the offence of intentional fare evasion. See Browning vs Floyd [1946] KB 597.

To that end, should I point out this might have happened before (I don't think it has, but I've made this bad of a mistake, it's possible I have before also) - would much rather deal with that now than then contacting me again later and treating it as a second offence, which I imagine would be dealt with more harshly. Or just respond to what they sent?

The correspondence you have uploaded suggests they have only identified one issue on one ticket, which they say has been scanned six times.

If you have compelling evidence that you had with you a valid ticket on one or more of those occasions, and can explain a reason why you tendered an old ticket and not the right ticket, you could submit said tickets and said reasons. This might reduce any possible settlement you need to pay. If not, you will have to cough up.

I would strongly advise against disclosing that "it might have happened before" as that is just bringing further trouble upon yourself.

And finally, you absolutely must make sure you do not put yourself in this position again. You need to manage your tickets better – for example, by adding them to the wallet app on your phone and deleting once used, or by reverting to paper tickets and chucking them away after exiting your destination station.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you. Seems like politely pointing out that I had some valid tickets (although not for all the journeys they've said) might be OK.

Would anyone be willing to chime in on whether I should mention the possibility of this happening previously? It might not have done, I'd just rather avoid a second investigation later if it has. I imagine best course is just to respond to the current investigation, but not sure what the best move is with these train companies.

Some good advice from @island in post #10.

Unless you are up against a tight deadline I'd wait 24 hours (or the weekend) before sending a reply to them to see what people say on your thread.

I'd also post up a draft of any reply you want to send to them here before you send it so that people can advise if the wording is as good as it can be (I note you have already replied to their initial message so it may be helpful for people to see what you said on your earlier reply for context, if you wish to share it that is)

It looks like they are minded to settle the matter at the moment, not prosecute- if that is the 'least worst' option then it might be wise to just do that if further investigations could result in worse options. I am guessing that might be charged at 5 or 6 x Anytime Day Singles London to Cambridge (£30.50) + an 'admin' fee of maybe c£150

 

[RailManTwoLap]

I'm sorry if this is a bit direct, but none of what you've said passes the sniff test. It reads as an elaborately constructed story to try and explain away the fact that you are using the return legs of tickets for multiple journeys, either intentionally or recklessly as to whether the ticket has been reused or not.

It should be noted that tendering an invalid ticket for your journey whilst also holding a valid ticket in your pocket has been held to come within the offence of intentional fare evasion. See Browning vs Floyd [1946] KB 597.

The correspondence you have uploaded suggests they have only identified one issue on one ticket, which they say has been scanned six times.

If you have compelling evidence that you had with you a valid ticket on one or more of those occasions, and can explain a reason why you tendered an old ticket and not the right ticket, you could submit said tickets and said reasons. This might reduce any possible settlement you need to pay. If not, you will have to cough up.

I would strongly advise against disclosing that "it might have happened before" as that is just bringing further trouble upon yourself.

And finally, you absolutely must make sure you do not put yourself in this position again. You need to manage your tickets better – for example, by adding them to the wallet app on your phone and deleting once used, or by reverting to paper tickets and chucking them away after exiting your destination station.

I'm sorry if this is a bit direct, but none of what you've said passes the sniff test. It reads as an elaborately constructed story to try and explain away the fact that you are using the return legs of tickets for multiple journeys, either intentionally or recklessly as to whether the ticket has been reused or not.

Not direct - appreciated. It's true, but I have no way of showing that, and I'm not inclined to try to convince Greater Anglia.

If you have compelling evidence that you had with you a valid ticket on one or more of those occasions, and can explain a reason why you tendered an old ticket and not the right ticket, you could submit said tickets and said r

I have the valid tickets. What I don't have is a good reason other than 'I forgot'. Still worth submitting?

I would strongly advise against disclosing that "it might have happened before" as that is just bringing further trouble upon yourself.

Many thanks, will refrain.

And finally, you absolutely must make sure you do not put yourself in this position again. You need to manage your tickets better – for example, by adding them to the wallet app on your phone and deleting once used, or by reverting to paper tickets and chucking them away after exiting your destination station.

Agreed - think going back to paper ticket is the best idea.

Last question is that I think some of the journeys are actually valid (as in they've included me making a correct journey with the ticket I've scanned 6 times) - worth asking about this? Main concern is to avoid them just telling me to debate it in court if I feel that way. Not sure if GA are that way inclined generally.

 

[Southern Beau]

Where you have used the open return “return” part of the ticket, how has this been “scanned”?

You’ve put it through the ticket gate, rejected and then asked staff to manually let you through?

Or has it had the barcode been scanned at the gate or on board?

 

[RailManTwoLap]

Where you have used the open return “return” part of the ticket, how has this been “scanned”?

You’ve put it through the ticket gate, rejected and then asked staff to manually let you through?

Or has it had the barcode scanned at the gate or on board?

The first option - I thought the staff would see if it was invalid, since they let me thorugh I thought it must be ok

 

[Southern Beau]

So presumably GA have seen you used the return part of the open return and then subsequently bought several outward singles.

Was this a paper ticket or barcode ticket?

 

[RailManTwoLap]

So presumably GA have seen you used the return part of the open return and then subsequently bought several outward singles.

Was this a paper ticket or barcode ticket?

barcode

 

[Southern Beau]

barcode

Ok, so I imagine they’ll be a clear trail of failed scans. And you’ve then obviously shown it to staff who have let you board the train?

Stretching it here, but could that be “authority to travel”?

 

[RailManTwoLap]

Ok, so I imagine they’ll be a clear trail of failed scans. And you’ve then obviously shown it to staff who have let you board the train?

Stretching it here, but could that be “authority to travel”?

Yes that's what happened. I would try to scan, fail, assume it was just trainline playing up, and show it to staff. They would then let me on the train.

 

[Southern Beau]

Yes that's what happened. I would try to scan, fail, assume it was just trainline playing up, and show it to staff. They would then let me on the train.

You need to consider if every time you have had a failed scan on the open return “return” portion, did you also have a single for the same morning?

 

[RailManTwoLap]

.