Eurostar security - Schengen or tunnel security?

[eldomtom2]

I have heard it claimed that most of the security at Eurostar stations is due to legal requirements surrounding the Channel Tunnel, and is not due to the UK not being part of the Schengen area. Is this true?

 

[stuu]

Neither I imagine, after all you don't get searched if you take a car on the tunnel, so there can't be any absolute requirement either way. I suspect it is political theatre

 

[StephenHunter]

I have heard it claimed that most of the security at Eurostar stations is due to legal requirements surrounding the Channel Tunnel, and is not due to the UK not being part of the Schengen area. Is this true?

The passport controls would be definitely required if the security stuff wasn't there though.

 

[Route115?]

That is correct, if the UK were to join Schengen (and Switzerland has signed up to Schengen despite not being a member of the EU) you would still require security. Obviously you could also change the security requirements.

 

[eldomtom2]

That is correct, if the UK were to join Schengen (and Switzerland has signed up to Schengen despite not being a member of the EU) you would still require security.

But would this security be appreciably less than the current amount of security?

 

[zero]

There are several Schengen airports where passengers arriving from the UK, and possibly US and Canada, are released into the secure airside area. Such passengers can board a connecting flight without going through security again, which is to say that Schengen countries trust the UK's security screening. In other words, not being part of Schengen does not mean that there must be additional screening. (But some Schengen airports are not set up to receive secure non-Schengen arrivals, which is a result of the airport configuration rather than security requirements.)

Some domestic trains in Spain require security whereas you can go all the way from France to Finland(?) by train without any.

 

[nwales58]

Not Schengen, that has little to do with physical security, only the processing of passengers and that is implemented by national border authorities.

Legally, the Channel Tunnel is defined by an inter-governmental treaty which probably does not go into detail on security but will define the competent authorities at both ends.

At our end, DfT LTS (formerly Transsec) calls the shots. I'd have to look up France's equivalent. Security specs will be the worse of the two sets of fears.

To get an idea of how LTS think, they are responsible for specifying the silver bollard arrangements around major railway stations I believe, as well as the airport standards we all love.

 

[Re 4/4]

There are several Schengen airports where passengers arriving from the UK, and possibly US and Canada, are released into the secure airside area. Such passengers can board a connecting flight without going through security again, which is to say that Schengen countries trust the UK's security screening. In other words, not being part of Schengen does not mean that there must be additional screening. (But some Schengen airports are not set up to receive secure non-Schengen arrivals, which is a result of the airport configuration rather than security requirements.)

I wonder how they handle Schengen entry stamps if you land there and then take an intra-Schengen connecting flight?

I know that Zurich (Schengen not EU) has segregated terminals and even different cars on the "train" (people mover out to terminal E) precisely to avoid any mixing without going through Schengen entry/exit properly, even though both airside areas are secure in the usual sense for airside areas. There's an airside to airside passport check area to go from one to the other.

 

[duesselmartin]

I wonder how they handle Schengen entry stamps if you land there and then take an intra-Schengen connecting flight?

I know that Zurich (Schengen not EU) has segregated terminals and even different cars on the "train" (people mover out to terminal E) precisely to avoid any mixing without going through Schengen entry/exit properly, even though both airside areas are secure in the usual sense for airside areas. There's an airside to airside passport check area to go from one to the other.

you still go via a Passport control booth but not security screening.

 

[dutchflyer]

View from the continent/EU: as I have noted following this forum for some time now, sometimes quite different points of view seem to exist.
NOrway is also part of Schengen and not in the EU-but it had older historic ´all Scandinavia´ open land-borders already. With all the new-style electronic checks etc they also seem to have done away-or at least as general rule- for the need to stamp passports etc. And there are still some countries in the EU and not in Schengen.
The story here about these stringent controles for the tunnel €* trains is that the old-established (and there were many more at that time as there are now) ferries insisted on this, to protect their own interests.
My last trip on it was on an INterRail last may and as I read now the out of EU-import rules apply to re-enter EU/Schengen I could not bring several food items I always used to take from UK-thanks Tesco or even ASDA. But there was no check at all at St.Pancras for this.

 

[AdamWW]

The story here about these stringent controles for the tunnel €* trains is that the old-established (and there were many more at that time as there are now) ferries insisted on this, to protect their own interests.

Curiously though, there is an airport security style set-up for foot passengers boarding the Harwich to Hook of Holland ferry.

I suspect car passengers don't have to get out and walk through security while their car is thoroughly searched.

They don't seem to bother in the other direction though.

 

[Route115?]

There are several Schengen airports where passengers arriving from the UK, and possibly US and Canada, are released into the secure airside area. Such passengers can board a connecting flight without going through security again, which is to say that Schengen countries trust the UK's security screening. In other words, not being part of Schengen does not mean that there must be additional screening. (But some Schengen airports are not set up to receive secure non-Schengen arrivals, which is a result of the airport configuration rather than security requirements.)

Some domestic trains in Spain require security whereas you can go all the way from France to Finland(?) by train without any.

At Amsterdam & Zurich airports (and probably others) travellers from the UK, the US and other safe countries decamp into the non Schengen area and can transfer without a further security check to other international flights. If they wish to transfer to a Schengen destination they have to go through passport control. At AMS I believe that this is between piers C & D and no further security check is required. At Zurich you may have to through a further security check. The reason for not requiring a further security check at AMS is that the authorities acceot that the checks at UK airports are adequate which I am sure that they are. The UK & US seem to have a "not invented here" mentality and do not trust checks from airports outside the UK - I think that this is a problem with the UK & US authorities.

You can go through US preclearance at various airports such as Dublin & Shannon in which case you are treated as a domestic passenger on arrival in the US - a similar thing happens at St Pancras.

I had a very small kitchen knife confiscated at Harwich - you can't even put it in checked baggage when travelling by ferry.

 

[duesselmartin]

Curiously though, there is an airport security style set-up for foot passengers boarding the Harwich to Hook of Holland ferry.

I suspect car passengers don't have to get out and walk through security while their car is thoroughly searched.

They don't seem to bother in the other direction though.

Yes , you may only do shenanigangs in one direction only.

 

[nwales58]

... shenanigangs ...

Groan. Diese Witze hat geschungen (needs improvement)

Seriously, Harwich is the decision of the ferry line. DfT LTS only cover land and the tunnel AFAIK. Probably GB not UK too.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I have heard it claimed that most of the security at Eurostar stations is due to legal requirements surrounding the Channel Tunnel, and is not due to the UK not being part of the Schengen area. Is this true?

Correct. Schengen doesn't impose any requirement for security checks on external borders. Usually most international border crossings will have X-Ray machines available if required to scan luggage, particularly on some rail routes where smuggling is a concern (such as Terespol-Brest), but it's not mandatory. Last time I went through Terespol, they were quite clearly only picking out the people with a smuggler profile for scanning.

I wonder how they handle Schengen entry stamps if you land there and then take an intra-Schengen connecting flight?

You always have to pass through passport control to reach a intra-Schengen connecting flight. Each airport handles it differently, some are funnelling people straight to passport control if they aren't going non-Schengen to non-Schengen with an option to head towards a form of transit area, others just dump you in the departure lounge for non-Schengen travel and it's your choice to proceed towards passport control. The security aspect also depends on the origin, and for instance in Zurich, there is the possibility of routing passengers towards an additional security check before they can freely access the non-Schengen area.

Speaking of Zurich, I once spent a rather boring 19 hours in the terminal (Covid times) and the entire place seemingly shut down after 19:00. I explored almost the entire airside area, both Schengen and non-Schengen, and at one point, I ended up stumbling across a security check with nothing more than my room key for the Transit Hotel and my phone quite late at night. I still have no idea how I ended up there, but they were quite amused to come across someone who needed to go through security at 2am.

Neither I imagine, after all you don't get searched if you take a car on the tunnel, so there can't be any absolute requirement either way. I suspect it is political theatre

You can do. It doesn't happen often, but it does.

 

[The exile]

Neither I imagine, after all you don't get searched if you take a car on the tunnel, so there can't be any absolute requirement either way. I suspect it is political theatre

You are sometimes. Or was it just me….?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2024 ==

It shouldn’t be forgotten that when the Channel Tunnel security arrangements were being laid down, Britain faced a far higher “UK only” home-grown terror threat than we do now- to whom the Tunnel would have been an ideal target. The Irish terror threat may have receded - but it would (in Sir Humphrey’s words) be a very courageous decision to remove routine security checks. Think of the outcry if there were then to be an incident.

 

[paul1609]

You are sometimes. Or was it just me….?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2024 ==

It shouldn’t be forgotten that when the Channel Tunnel security arrangements were being laid down, Britain faced a far higher “UK only” home-grown terror threat than we do now- to whom the Tunnel would have been an ideal target. The Irish terror threat may have receded - but it would (in Sir Humphrey’s words) be a very courageous decision to remove routine security checks. Think of the outcry if there were then to be an incident.

Indeed Im currently writing the Martyns Law risk assesment for our village hall. The nominated security force is the Ladies Thai Che group average age 80 +
I doubt that every station that can contain more than 800 passengers and so are a high tier establishment will pass security inspection on those grounds https://www.gov.uk/government/news/martyns-law-progresses-as-government-publishes-draft-legislation