Network South East branding in retrospective

[Sad Sprinter]

Despite being born after privatisation I was around long enough for the NSE livery to survive almost into my teens. I always loved the NSE branding as a child, and still do. I remember thinking "Network SouthEast" and "Kent Link Networker" were the coolest sounding three-letter combinations you could make as a 7 year old.

In later life I've come to seen the branding as a bit...garish. For example, I think post-privatisation Clapham Junction in the early 2000s, looks a bit less overstimulating than constant red, white and blue on a multitude of different rolling stock.

Also, I've come to think the NSE livery can look "odd" depending on which stock it's placed on. I think it looks fantastic on nearly all MK1 stock, and perfect on MK3 based suburban vehicles, but truly odd on the Wessex Electrics. For some reason, the NSE livery on 442s makes them look bigger than they actually are. On the class 319s, the modified versions with the grey frontage looks far nicer than the units with the white frontage, and despite being almost identical, the livery looks absolutely perfect on Turbos and weird on Networkers.

I would love NSE to come back and if it did (not impossible in this day and age), I think the livery would have to be slightly tailored more to each class of train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The thing I liked most about NSE was the local branding. A feeling of local ownership and buy-in is one of the most powerful marketing tools in the box - even First has realised this with buses more recently (though Stagecoach appear to have reversed it in favour of "Fisher Price" and "school bus" liveries for everything.

 

[sprinterguy]

Despite being born after privatisation I was around long enough for the NSE livery to survive almost into my teens. I always loved the NSE branding as a child, and still do. I remember thinking "Network SouthEast" and "Kent Link Networker" were the coolest sounding three-letter combinations you could make as a 7 year old.

In later life I've come to seen the branding as a bit...garish. For example, I think post-privatisation Clapham Junction in the early 2000s, looks a bit less overstimulating than constant red, white and blue on a multitude of different rolling stock.

Also, I've come to think the NSE livery can look "odd" depending on which stock it's placed on. I think it looks fantastic on nearly all MK1 stock, and perfect on MK3 based suburban vehicles, but truly odd on the Wessex Electrics. For some reason, the NSE livery on 442s makes them look bigger than they actually are. On the class 319s, the modified versions with the grey frontage looks far nicer than the units with the white frontage, and despite being almost identical, the livery looks absolutely perfect on Turbos and weird on Networkers.

I would love NSE to come back and if it did (not impossible in this day and age), I think the livery would have to be slightly tailored more to each class of train.

Personally, I thought that the NSE livery was quite carefully tailored to suit the stock it was applied to: It seems to me that the dimensions of the blue/white/red upsweep at the cab ends of units were altered to suit the positioning of windows, particularly on the earlier variant with mid-grey lower bodysides.

The later livery variant with silver-grey lower body/cab ends (and fully white on Networkers and Turbos) also helped to differentiate newly built stock from older stock, and I personally think never looked better than as applied to the 442s. It also differentiated the later, first-class fitted 319/1s from the earlier, standard only 319/0s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2024 ==

The thing I liked most about NSE was the local branding. A feeling of local ownership and buy-in is one of the most powerful marketing tools in the box - even First has realised this with buses more recently (though Stagecoach appear to have reversed it in favour of "Fisher Price" and "school bus" liveries for everything.

Yes, the single, overarching identity for all London-focused commuter and regional services was given an appropriate level of local differentiation through the fairly subtle but distinctive route specific branding.

 

[michael8]

I found a NSE branded/coloured item on the facade of Charing Cross Station Happy days

 

[Transilien]

Network Southeast was a good brand but it covered too large an area and too many types of services. Why did Regional services need to be paired with London Commuter services? I think that the general branding of Network Southeast made places far away from London get a worse quality of service. For example, London to Kings Lynn is 100 miles but it got an outer-suburban quality of service with class 317s replacing class 47s and mark 2s.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I found a NSE branded/coloured item on the facade of Charing Cross Station Happy days

The station staff at Balham appear to be using a Network SouthEast bin, in great condition and with logo too, at the station's supposedly "new" entrance!

 

[NSEWonderer]

I found a NSE branded/coloured item on the facade of Charing Cross Station Happy days

Reminds me of that one roaming Brel unit(465189) that still has abiet faded the NSE Logo.

 

[michael8]

The station staff at Balham appear to be using a Network SouthEast bin, in great condition and with logo too, at the station's supposedly "new" entrance!

This is great !

 

[yorksrob]

It was a good brand that looks far better than the grey and grubby white liveries that abound today. The individual route identities were also very good.

My only couple of criticisms - I found the moquette a bit samey after a while, after it took over everything, and there were few very attractive South Eastern Railway timber stations which were demolished at the time, which was a shame.

 

[dosxuk]

In later life I've come to seen the branding as a bit...garish.

That's 80's branding in a nutshell! It was very much a product of its time, and something that probably should remain there. It's the same as the beiges, browns and deep reds of intercity - at the time they suggested class and refinement, nowadays they suggest old-fashioned, tired and in need of some TLC. But both were off the back of the dull blue and grey look. London at the time was in need of a bit of colour and a good clean. The NSE livery injected life into both.

If NSE was still a thing today, one thing we can be certain of, is it wouldn't still have the same 80s livery on the trains (as much as that idea may upset some enthusiasts). I wouldn't be surprised to see the three stripe logo still around, with some subtlety updated colours, but the livery would almost certainly be completely different to what we had.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

That's 80's branding in a nutshell! It was very much a product of its time, and something that probably should remain there. It's the same as the beiges, browns and deep reds of intercity - at the time they suggested class and refinement, nowadays they suggest old-fashioned, tired and in need of some TLC. But both were off the back of the dull blue and grey look. London at the time was in need of a bit of colour and a good clean. The NSE livery injected life into both.

If NSE was still a thing today, one thing we can be certain of, is it wouldn't still have the same 80s livery on the trains (as much as that idea may upset some enthusiasts). I wouldn't be surprised to see the three stripe logo still around, with some subtlety updated colours, but the livery would almost certainly be completely different to what we had.

Maybe it would have the old Waterloo and City Line livery? That looked something more relatable to what we have today.

I think NSE looks garish on the newer stock. 442s, 159s, Networkers etc. For some reason it suits MK1 and MK based EMUs pretty well. Apart from that original light blue colour scheme. Which didn't look right on anything.

 

[The exile]

Network Southeast was a good brand but it covered too large an area and too many types of services. Why did Regional services need to be paired with London Commuter services? I think that the general branding of Network Southeast made places far away from London get a worse quality of service. For example, London to Kings Lynn is 100 miles but it got an outer-suburban quality of service with class 317s replacing class 47s and mark 2s.

It’s unlikely to have got much better with any other operator. Indeed, detached from NSE it would probably have stayed as a DMU shuttle from Cambridge.

 

[Magdalia]

Despite being born after privatisation I was around long enough for the NSE livery to survive almost into my teens. I always loved the NSE branding as a child, and still do.

I hope that you have a copy of the Network SouthEast Story by Chris Green and Mike Vincent, published in 2014.

Network Southeast was a good brand but it covered too large an area and too many types of services. Why did Regional services need to be paired with London Commuter services? I think that the general branding of Network Southeast made places far away from London get a worse quality of service. For example, London to Kings Lynn is 100 miles but it got an outer-suburban quality of service with class 317s replacing class 47s and mark 2s.

This is nonsense. Network SouthEast transformed the Fen Line from a rural backwater to a busy commuter route. When Network SouthEast started in 1986 it had a 2 hourly diesel service, 6 years later in 1992 it was hourly and electric with improved journey times. Now the peak time service is every 30 minutes and it would be like that all day if it wasn't for the capacity constraints at Ely.

That debt is still commemorated at Downham Market which is a Network SouthEast timewarp.

66706 Downham Market

What a lovely station! The signal bracket on the left looks fairly old, made by GRS co Ltd. The anti climb plate on the ladder is secured by a brass padlock. A couple of signal wires remain leading from the 'box behind us, possibly to operate the ground signals, one of which can be seen towards...

www.flickr.com

66706 Downham Market​

What a lovely station!​

 

[nw1]

I think NSE looks garish on the newer stock. 442s, 159s, Networkers etc. For some reason it suits MK1 and MK based EMUs pretty well. Apart from that original light blue colour scheme. Which didn't look right on anything.

Interesting because the 442s, 159s and Networkers had NSE livery from the beginning and thus arguably it looked particularly natural on them. Admittedly I am old enough to remember 442s being introduced, and seeing them in NSE livery from new...

That said, I think it looked good on most stock.

 

[Transilien]

This is nonsense. Network SouthEast transformed the Fen Line from a rural backwater to a busy commuter route. When Network SouthEast started in 1986 it had a 2 hourly diesel service, 6 years later in 1992 it was hourly and electric with improved journey times. Now the peak time service is every 30 minutes and it would be like that all day if it wasn't for the capacity constraints at Ely.

But perhaps stock like 442s would have been more suitable from electrification.

 

[nw1]

That's 80's branding in a nutshell! It was very much a product of its time, and something that probably should remain there. It's the same as the beiges, browns and deep reds of intercity - at the time they suggested class and refinement, nowadays they suggest old-fashioned, tired and in need of some TLC. But both were off the back of the dull blue and grey look. London at the time was in need of a bit of colour and a good clean. The NSE livery injected life into both.

If NSE was still a thing today, one thing we can be certain of, is it wouldn't still have the same 80s livery on the trains (as much as that idea may upset some enthusiasts). I wouldn't be surprised to see the three stripe logo still around, with some subtlety updated colours, but the livery would almost certainly be completely different to what we had.

I would expect the red, white and blue livery to still be around but perhaps with a more rounded, less angular feel and a more modern font, possibly all in lowercase (e.g. "network" in one colour and "southeast" in another)

 

[Transilien]

It’s interesting how they removed the double arrow from later NSE branding like they wanted to distance the brand from British Rail.

 

[Magdalia]

But perhaps stock like 442s would have been more suitable from electrification.

Network SouthEast ordered the class 365s for the Fen Line, though they only arrived after privatisation.

 

[The exile]

But perhaps stock like 442s would have been more suitable from electrification.

But as they were also an NSE product it’s purely an argument about whether NSE provided the right stock, rather than whether the L&SE sector was the appropriate one for King’s Lynn.

 

[Mikey C]

Interesting because the 442s, 159s and Networkers had NSE livery from the beginning and thus arguably it looked particularly natural on them. Admittedly I am old enough to remember 442s being introduced, and seeing them in NSE livery from new...

That said, I think it looked good on most stock.

The Southeastern Networkers have never looked better than in NSE livery. The livery they have now is far duller (a shame they they never got properly refurbished and repainted into the much smarter Southeastern blue)

 

[yorksrob]

It’s interesting how they removed the double arrow from later NSE branding like they wanted to distance the brand from British Rail.

Yes, I think they ought to have incorporated that somewhere subtly, like RR's did.

 

[Russel]

At the time, the NSE, Regional Railways and Intercity were modern and smart, however, looking at them now, 30 years on, there is no hiding the fact that they are a product of the 80's.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that if NSE were around today, I might tone down the red on the lamp posts/canopy stanchions etc, however I'd keep a version of the toothpaste livery. Red, white and blue never ages !

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that if NSE were around today, I might tone down the red on the lamp posts/canopy stanchions etc, however I'd keep a version of the toothpaste livery. Red, white and blue never ages !

Chiltern had a variant of it that looked more modern for a bit, blue around the windows and a red stripe underneath. The red was removed at the last change though.

 

[nw1]

I think that if NSE were around today, I might tone down the red on the lamp posts/canopy stanchions etc, however I'd keep a version of the toothpaste livery. Red, white and blue never ages !

Blue lamp posts would probably look ok, and that's a colour used by a lot of TOCs anyway.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Chiltern had a variant of it that looked more modern for a bit, blue around the windows and a red stripe underneath. The red was removed at the last change though.

That's the likely evolution had NSE stayed around, though Chiltern clung on to NSE for some time in signage etc.

 

[sprinterguy]

Chiltern had a variant of it that looked more modern for a bit, blue around the windows and a red stripe underneath. The red was removed at the last change though.

That's a good point; I'd considered suggesting that the South West Trains 'swoopy' liveries might have indicated the possible future direction of the NSE identity (with an appropriate colour palette) if they'd brought in a design consultancy, but something akin to the original Chiltern scheme probably represents the logical progression in the late nineties.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

@nw1 @ScottGallagher - NSE were in fact tending towards a more blue image shortly before they got broken up for privatisation - so you were both spot on; take a look at the Kensington Olympia footbridge here, which was one of the final bits of branding they carried out.

I'd say it suited the branding quite well...?

 

[bramling]

Network Southeast was a good brand but it covered too large an area and too many types of services. Why did Regional services need to be paired with London Commuter services? I think that the general branding of Network Southeast made places far away from London get a worse quality of service. For example, London to Kings Lynn is 100 miles but it got an outer-suburban quality of service with class 317s replacing class 47s and mark 2s.

I can’t really agree with the point about Kings Lynn. By the time of privatisation the route beyond Cambridge was getting an hourly service of electric trains, many of which ran non-stop from London to Cambridge. Around the same time they also got brand new trains in the form of the 365s, which were immediately very popular. All this contributed to massive growth on the route, so people must have liked it.

Kings Lynn would likely have always lost its express services to Liverpool Street because of the need to find space for the frequent Stansted Express trains at the London end of the route.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I can see the argument that NSE became a bit "samey" but at least it was consistent and stood the test of time barring one or two revisions.

Contrast this with Provincial/Regional Railways which had a hodgepodge of different liveries (Trans-Pennine branded provincial; Pacer blue; early Sprinter blue; the later Sprinter-branded variant; "Three Stripe" RR; the subsequent green stripe variant for North West Express; and finally Express Sprinter livery on the 158s)... and that's before you get into the various PTE liveries, and the short-lived "Network NorthWest" logo. There was no unified branding at all, and whilst it did make things more interesting in a way, it made everything seem rather disjointed.