Fare Excess with multiple possible routeing points?

[rocrat]

Thetford (TTF) - London Terminals (LON) has four possible tickets: only via Peterborough (PBO), only via Cambridge (CBG), only via Norwich (NRW), and plus high speed.

Via PBO is settled by LNER, and so no longer has an open return fare.

"Via PBO" and "Via CBG" on the routeing point calculator suggests that both are valid via both PBO and Ely (ELY) (so therefore also CBG), but not via NRW.

If one holds an "only via CBG" return, is this valid via PBO anyway, or is the word "only" going to always limit the route to via CBG?

This gets more complicated if going further than LON, as Positive Easement - 700234 allows travel via ELY for "any permitted" tickets that are valid via CBG, and there are now both 'any permitted' and 'via Cambridge' tickets, but restriction code 1A means travel via CBG has an evening peak...

Is there a need for an excess at all if the routeing points include both PBO and ELY?

If yes, if there is no longer a return fare to excess to, what should happen?

 

[LA50041]

Thetford (TTF) - London Terminals (LON) has four possible tickets: only via Peterborough (PBO), only via Cambridge (CBG), only via Norwich (NRW), and plus high speed.

Via PBO is settled by LNER, and so no longer has an open return fare.

"Via PBO" and "Via CBG" on the routeing point calculator suggests that both are valid via both PBO and Ely (ELY) (so therefore also CBG), but not via NRW.

If one holds an "only via CBG" return, is this valid via PBO anyway, or is the word "only" going to always limit the route to via CBG?

This gets more complicated if going further than LON, as Positive Easement - 700234 allows travel via ELY for "any permitted" tickets that are valid via CBG, and there are now both 'any permitted' and 'via Cambridge' tickets, but restriction code 1A means travel via CBG has an evening peak...

Is there a need for an excess at all if the routeing points include both PBO and ELY?

If yes, if there is no longer a return fare to excess to, what should happen?

The via Cambridge ticket requires travel via Cambridge. How do you propose to go from Thetford via Peterborough and Cambridge without doubling back between Ely and Peterborough?

 

[30907]

Thetford (TTF) - London Terminals (LON) has four possible tickets: only via Peterborough (PBO), only via Cambridge (CBG), only via Norwich (NRW), and plus high speed.

Can't find that (nor the word"only").

Via PBO is settled by LNER, and so no longer has an open return fare.

"Via PBO" and "Via CBG" on the routeing point calculator suggests that both are valid via both PBO and Ely (ELY) (so therefore also CBG), but not via NRW.

If one holds an "only via CBG" return, is this valid via PBO anyway, or is the word "only" going to always limit the route to via CBG?

I cannot see why a VIA CBG fare would be valid VIA PBO - is there a rationale I have missed (quite possible!).

 

[Mainline421]

I cannot see why a VIA CBG fare would be valid VIA PBO - is there a rationale I have missed (quite possible!).

Tickets are always valid via a cheaper route, so yes it is valid PBO.

If it's a return fare then the correct procedure is unclear however, others may have better knowledge

 

[30907]

Tickets are always valid via a cheaper route, so yes it is valid PBO.

Apologies - I hadn't spotted that the VIA CBG single was more expensive.
Single leg pricing obviously has an advantage here

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Confused! A Thetford->London Terminals Anytime Day Single is £90.50 route "via Norwich", or £90.20 route "via Peterborough" or £75.20 route "via Cambridge".

Wouldn't have thought that the £75.20 ticket would allow travel, other than via Cambridge, without being excessed.

 

[Mainline421]

Confused! A Thetford->London Terminals Anytime Day Single is £90.50 route "via Norwich", or £90.20 route "via Peterborough" or £75.20 route "via Cambridge".

Wouldn't have thought that the £75.20 ticket would allow travel, other than via Cambridge, without being excessed.

For Off-Peak Peterborough is cheapest so it would depend on the arrival time in London.

 

[Watershed]

Thetford (TTF) - London Terminals (LON) has four possible tickets: only via Peterborough (PBO), only via Cambridge (CBG), only via Norwich (NRW), and plus high speed.

For clarity - there is a "✠Plus High Speed" fare but only specifically to St Pancras, not to London Terminals. This is priced and intended for use via Norwich, but there is nothing preventing it from being used on all other permitted routes to other valid London Terminals (especially since it has a Maltese Cross). So this is the de facto "Any Permitted" fare.

Via PBO is settled by LNER, and so no longer has an open return fare.

Set rather than settled, I think you mean?

"Via PBO" and "Via CBG" on the routeing point calculator suggests that both are valid via both PBO and Ely (ELY) (so therefore also CBG), but not via NRW.

The Routeing Point Calculator is only used for determining 'appropriate' Routeing Points. Whilst both PBO and Ely pass as appropriate RPs for "via PBO" and "via CBG", you still have to comply with the restrictions associated with your fare's route.

Ely is obviously a perfectly acceptable Routeing Point for a "via PBO" ticket, but I think you would be stretching the Routeing Point to breaking point if you tried to use PBO as your Routeing Point on a "via CBG" ticket. Theoretically I suppose you could argue it's permitted, on the basis that you could avoid ELY using the Ely West Curve (which has something like one passenger train a week!), travel to PBO as your origin Routeing Point, and then follow one of the mapped routes from PBO to London via Cambridge.

The fact that this would involve a double-back between Manea and PBO means it's very unlikely to be accepted by any member of staff in practice, and the validity is of limited practical use since you are presumably trying to get to London rather than engage in a scenic tour of the Cambridgeshire fenlands...

However, in some situations where you hold a single ticket (depending on the time of travel), you could actually travel via PBO on a "via NRW" or "via CBG" ticket. This would be on the basis that the "via PBO" singles are sometimes cheaper than the "via NRW" or "via CBG" singles - and the Routeing Guide says that you can travel on alternative routes on a routed fare, if the same or lower fare applies:

Where the fare specifies a particular route, there will be restrictions in the fare routes data that will affect the routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route
description. The National Routeing Guide may be used to find out how to reach the stationshown in the route description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used
for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

If one holds an "only via CBG" return, is this valid via PBO anyway, or is the word "only" going to always limit the route to via CBG?

In principle, yes - a ticket routed "via X" (or "only valid via X", as shown in the longer text now used on most tickets and journey planners) can only be used if you travel via X. However the fact that you can travel on alternative cheaper routes, as above, means it is a little bit more nuanced than this in practice.

This gets more complicated if going further than LON, as Positive Easement - 700234 allows travel via ELY for "any permitted" tickets that are valid via CBG, and there are now both 'any permitted' and 'via Cambridge' tickets, but restriction code 1A means travel via CBG has an evening peak...

This easement is a Routeing Point easement. It merely means that you can still use Ely as a Routeing Point even if the fares check fails - it doesn't authorise you to avoid Cambridge.

Do you have a particular journey in mind for which the evening peak and "Any Permitted" fares apply? It is generally easier to explain things in reference to concrete examples

Is there a need for an excess at all if the routeing points include both PBO and ELY?

As above, you need to comply with the route restrictions; PBO being an appropriate Routeing Point doesn't change this. However, if the relevant "via PBO" fare is cheaper for the circumstances, than the above Routeing Guide provision means you can travel via PBO.

If yes, if there is no longer a return fare to excess to, what should happen?

Yes - a bit of a problem arises when you hold a return ticket, as there is then no immediately comparable "via PBO" return ticket. The internal industry guidance suggests basing comparisons on twice the single fare, but there isn't anything public-facing that formalises this and it's a situation which I expect nobody at LNER really thought through when they rolled out their slash-and-burn of return fares. They like to think of the railway as an airline on rails, where everyone just travels on their booked itinerary!

 

[rocrat]

For clarity - there is a "✠Plus High Speed" fare but only specifically to St Pancras, not to London Terminals. This is priced and intended for use via Norwich, but there is nothing preventing it from being used on all other permitted routes to other valid London Terminals (especially since it has a Maltese Cross). So this is the de facto "Any Permitted" fare.


Set rather than settled, I think you mean?


The Routeing Point Calculator is only used for determining 'appropriate' Routeing Points. Whilst both PBO and Ely pass as appropriate RPs for "via PBO" and "via CBG", you still have to comply with the restrictions associated with your fare's route.

Ely is obviously a perfectly acceptable Routeing Point for a "via PBO" ticket, but I think you would be stretching the Routeing Point to breaking point if you tried to use PBO as your Routeing Point on a "via CBG" ticket. Theoretically I suppose you could argue it's permitted, on the basis that you could avoid ELY using the Ely West Curve (which has something like one passenger train a week!), travel to PBO as your origin Routeing Point, and then follow one of the mapped routes from PBO to London via Cambridge.

The fact that this would involve a double-back between Manea and PBO means it's very unlikely to be accepted by any member of staff in practice, and the validity is of limited practical use since you are presumably trying to get to London rather than engage in a scenic tour of the Cambridgeshire fenlands...

However, in some situations where you hold a single ticket (depending on the time of travel), you could actually travel via PBO on a "via NRW" or "via CBG" ticket. This would be on the basis that the "via PBO" singles are sometimes cheaper than the "via NRW" or "via CBG" singles - and the Routeing Guide says that you can travel on alternative routes on a routed fare, if the same or lower fare applies:



In principle, yes - a ticket routed "via X" (or "only valid via X", as shown in the longer text now used on most tickets and journey planners) can only be used if you travel via X. However the fact that you can travel on alternative cheaper routes, as above, means it is a little bit more nuanced than this in practice.


This easement is a Routeing Point easement. It merely means that you can still use Ely as a Routeing Point even if the fares check fails - it doesn't authorise you to avoid Cambridge.

Do you have a particular journey in mind for which the evening peak and "Any Permitted" fares apply? It is generally easier to explain things in reference to concrete examples


As above, you need to comply with the route restrictions; PBO being an appropriate Routeing Point doesn't change this. However, if the relevant "via PBO" fare is cheaper for the circumstances, than the above Routeing Guide provision means you can travel via PBO.


Yes - a bit of a problem arises when you hold a return ticket, as there is then no immediately comparable "via PBO" return ticket. The internal industry guidance suggests basing comparisons on twice the single fare, but there isn't anything public-facing that formalises this and it's a situation which I expect nobody at LNER really thought through when they rolled out their slash-and-burn of return fares. They like to think of the railway as an airline on rails, where everyone just travels on their booked itinerary!

Thank you for this!

LNER's massive limitation of ticket types is a massive headache when going via PBO to essentially anywhere...

My main concern was the word "only" printed on the tickets... it makes much more sense now! I guess if I wanted to play it extra safe, I could buy via NRW tickets as they're always more expensive...

What is supposed to happen if there's a delay with either a) a split ticketed or b) a through ticket only via CBG that would otherwise be valid as an earlier train would have been cheaper than the via CBG, but the delay puts you onto a "peak" service with a via PBO ticket? Should you just be passed or given the same zero excess?

There's a bizarre issue that (seems to have been recently introduced such that) off-peak tickets via CBG to say, Worthing (WRH) are *more expensive* than the 'any permitted' ticket, meaning that, in theory, the valid routes have to avoid Cambridge or pay a 10p excess?

The valid itinerary rule probably means this isn't an issue as the any permitted tickets are sold for itineraries via CBG, but this doesn't necessarily work if you've bought paper tickets!

 

[stq123]

Sorry to butt in - but what route is "Plus High Speed" intended for (if any) that isn't covered by the other three? via DLR/HS1 through Stratford - Stratford Int'l?

 

[rocrat]

Sorry to butt in - but what route is "Plus High Speed" intended for (if any) that isn't covered by the other three? via DLR/HS1 through Stratford - Stratford Int'l?

I think so, Stratford to Stratford Intl by DLR, and then Stratford Intl to St Pancras (STP).

The plus high speed tickets don't actually always work on the STP barriers though, unhelpfully!

This is a very useful route to avoid Liverpool Street and/or the underground completely!

 

[Watershed]

Thank you for this!

LNER's massive limitation of ticket types is a massive headache when going via PBO to essentially anywhere...

Indeed - and this was one of the points raised when the abolition of returns was discussed on the forum. But they don't care about "niche" side effects like that.

My main concern was the word "only" printed on the tickets... it makes much more sense now! I guess if I wanted to play it extra safe, I could buy via NRW tickets as they're always more expensive...

That's one option - as you say, it is valid via the cheaper routes too. But since there is no penalty for travelling on the "wrong" route (you simply have to pay the excess to the correct fare, as per condition 9.4 of the NRCoT) I would just buy the cheaper "via CBG" or "via PBO" fare unless you are sure you want to travel via NRW.

What is supposed to happen if there's a delay with either a) a split ticketed or b) a through ticket only via CBG that would otherwise be valid as an earlier train would have been cheaper than the via CBG, but the delay puts you onto a "peak" service with a via PBO ticket? Should you just be passed or given the same zero excess?

Sorry - perhaps I'm being dense but I'm struggling to understand what you mean by "an earlier train would have been cheaper than via CBG"?

Could you tell me the planned itinerary you have in mind (e.g. xx:xx TTF - xx:xx ELY, xx:xx ELY - xx:xx KGX) and the exact fare you have in mind (a link to BR Fares would be best)? And which train in that itinerary would putatively be delayed?

There's a bizarre issue that (seems to have been recently introduced such that) off-peak tickets via CBG to say, Worthing (WRH) are *more expensive* than the 'any permitted' ticket, meaning that, in theory, the valid routes have to avoid Cambridge or pay a 10p excess?

That is bizarre and I can see where you're coming from, but no - the permitted routes for the "Any Permitted" fare include via CBG anyway, so the fact that a "via CBG" fare exists (which happens to be at a higher price) doesn't really make a difference.

If, on the other hand, the "Any Permitted" fare wasn't valid via CBG by default - let's say you were travelling to Diss, DIS, where the only permitted route is via NRW - then the price and existence of a "via CBG" fare would make a difference.

In that scenario, you could only travel via CBG on an "Any Permitted" ticket if the "via CBG" fare were the same price or less; but if you were in possession of an "Any Permitted" ticket you could still travel via CBG subject to payment of the excess. That excess could be obtained onboard the train without penalty.

The valid itinerary rule probably means this isn't an issue as the any permitted tickets are sold for itineraries via CBG, but this doesn't necessarily work if you've bought paper tickets!

As above, in this particular instance the "Any Permitted" fare is valid via CBG anyway so the issue doesn't arise.