Paddington to Stratford with BoJ

[stq123]

Hi everyone! I recently purchased a paper ticket from an Elizabeth Line ticket machine from Paddington to Stratford, with the intent of breaking my journey for several hours at Liverpool Street; I believed this to be cheaper than using contactless given that i would be travelling during peak hours at both times. When purchasing the ticket, I was given one from London Terminals to London Underground zones 1-2, and have used it so far from Paddington to Liverpool St. Two questions:
-Is this ticket valid for onward travel to stratford; if yes, by which modes?
-If no, does there exist another ticket which I could buy to give me my desired functionality?

 

[mikeg]

What ticket do you have? If it's a single I believe you've basically used your ticket. Or is it a travelcard? Oyster or contactless would be a better option, as I don't believe underground zonal singles allow for break of journey.

Edit: I see you're making a return journey. In this case is it a zone 1-2 travelcard? I 'm a little confused. How much did it cost?

 

[stq123]

“Anytime day single
Valid for one journey from
London Terminals
to London Undergrnd Zone 1-2”
It cost me £4.85 with railcard discount so it’s not a standard tube paper ticket i don’t think. I’m trying to travel Paddington - Liverpool St (AM peak) and then Liverpool St - Stratford (PM peak); I expected a paper ticket which stated “Valid for one journey from Paddington to Stratford” or the like, especially since it said “Break of Journey allowed” when I was purchasing it

What ticket do you have? If it's a single I believe you've basically used your ticket. Or is it a travelcard? Oyster or contactless would be a better option, as I don't believe underground zonal singles allow for break of journey.

Edit: I see you're making a return journey. In this case is it a zone 1-2 travelcard? I 'm a little confused. How much did it cost?

 

[Watershed]

It's a bit of a grey area, to be honest. TfL's intention is for break of journey not to be allowed on the zonal Underground element of paper tickets. However, having travelled as far as Liverpool Street, you could argue that you're now relying on the interavailability of Underground tickets on National Rail services between Liverpool Street and Stratford, and so TfL's break of journey rules don't apply.

In practical terms, I expect that your ticket won't work the barriers for re-entry since you have exited at Liverpool Street. Whether or not you'll be let through manually will largely depend on how carefully the member of barrier staff loks at your ticket and the barrier error code.

You'd really want a point-to-point National Rail ticket for there to be a clear and unambiguous right to break your journey. There are quite a few journeys for which no such fares exist, including Paddington to Stratford - so for that journey you'd instead have to buy a longer-distance ticket such as Acton Main Line to Stratford. That costs £9.40, which is more than two peak PAYG fares, so you'd have to break your journey multiple times for it to save you anything.

Even then, TfL's policy (which has no basis in the National Rail Conditions of Travel) is that, for ticketing purposes, the Elizabeth line is an Underground line in the 'core' section between Paddington and Abbey Wood/Stratford - so there's a reasonable likelihood of encountering hassle from barrier staff when trying to recommence your journey after each break of journey.

For this kind of journey I think you'd just be best off using PAYG.

 

[stq123]

It's a bit of a grey area, to be honest. TfL's intention is for break of journey not to be allowed on the zonal Underground element of paper tickets. However, having travelled as far as Liverpool Street, you could argue that you're now relying on the interavailability of Underground tickets on National Rail services between Liverpool Street and Stratford, and so TfL's break of journey rules don't apply.

In practical terms, I expect that your ticket won't work the barriers for re-entry since you have exited at Liverpool Street. Whether or not you'll be let through manually will largely depend on how carefully the member of barrier staff loks at your ticket and the barrier error code.

You'd really want a point-to-point National Rail ticket for there to be a clear and unambiguous right to break your journey. There are quite a few journeys for which no such fares exist, including Paddington to Stratford - so for that journey you'd instead have to buy a longer-distance ticket such as Acton Main Line to Stratford. That costs £9.40, which is more than two peak PAYG fares, so you'd have to break your journey multiple times for it to save you anything.

Even then, TfL's policy (which has no basis in the National Rail Conditions of Travel) is that, for ticketing purposes, the Elizabeth line is an Underground line in the 'core' section between Paddington and Abbey Wood/Stratford - so there's a reasonable likelihood of encountering hassle from barrier staff when trying to recommence your journey after each break of journey.

For this kind of journey I think you'd just be best off using PAYG.

Would I be allowed to use my ticket on a national rail service to Stratford even though the stated destination is LU zones 1-2?

 

[Haywain]

In this case is it a zone 1-2 travelcard?

There is no longer any such thing as a day ticket.

Would I be allowed to use my ticket on a national rail service to Stratford even though the stated destination is LU zones 1-2?

Yes.

 

[Watershed]

Would I be allowed to use my ticket on a national rail service to Stratford even though the stated destination is LU zones 1-2?

In principle yes, as National Rail and Underground tickets are interavailable (one is valid on the other) between Liverpool Street and Stratford. However the issue is regarding break of journey.

 

[Haywain]

However the issue is regarding break of journey.

I think in this case it would be pretty much impossible to identify the difference between a break of journey and a change of lines, even if the latter is unnecessary.

 

[stq123]

There is no longer any such thing as a day ticket.

Yes.

Great - if anything i prefer NR since it doesn’t require me to haul all the way down to the lizzy platforms. Thanks!

(Double bonus points if you could point me to literature about interavailability)

 

[Haywain]

(Double bonus points if you could point me to literature about interavailability)

Not sure where to find anything publicly available, but I'm confident you won't have a problem.

 

[Watershed]

Great - if anything i prefer NR since it doesn’t require me to haul all the way down to the lizzy platforms. Thanks!

(Double bonus points if you could point me to literature about interavailability)

Technically speaking, the Elizabeth line is a National Rail service. TfL just pretend that it's an Underground line (but only when it suits them - they don't accept Underground tickets all the way out to Heathrow!).

There are also a few morning and evening peak Elizabeth line services that run to/from the 'ground level' platforms at Liverpool Street.

It's very tricky to find any public references to interavailability (other than on the forum's ticketing guide!), but the internal industry guidance is clear that Stratford to Liv St is interavailable; this particular point isn't one that I think you need to worry about.

 

[signed]

they don't accept Underground tickets all the way out to Heathrow!

Isn't that just because the HAA imposes something like a £5 fee for non-LU rail services?

I can be wrong though

 

[mikeg]

There is no longer any such thing as a day ticke

Oops! Forgot that!

 

[stq123]

Just an update for everyone: caught a train from the liverpool street national rail platforms to Stratford; ticket worked the barriers at both ends without issue.

Do you think I would run into issues if I did something like this semi-regularly, to other Elizabeth line stations east of Stratford?

 

[redreni]

Isn't that just because the HAA imposes something like a £5 fee for non-LU rail services?

I can be wrong though

Not entirely, I don't think. They don't accept LU tickets out to Hanwell, Southall etc either. They have an arbitrary point along the route where the ticketing regime changes fundamentally, but they do nothing at stations or on trains to tell people that.

 

[Dirty_Mac]

even if the latter is unnecessary.

Not necessarily! If it's a split ticket and you're going beyond Stratford then switching trains at Liverpool Street makes sense.

 

[Haywain]

Not necessarily! If it's a split ticket and you're going beyond Stratford then switching trains at Liverpool Street makes sense.

Thanks. And where is the OP going?

 

[gaillark]

These are the inter-available routes where Underground and National Rail tickets are valid on each other services.

Service	Between
Chiltern Railway	Amersham and Marylebone
Chiltern Railway	West Ruislip and South Ruislip
Great Northern	Finsbury Park and King's Cross and Moorgate
Thameslink	West Hampstead Thameslink, Elephant & Castle and London Bridge
London Northwestern Railway	Harrow & Wealdstone and Euston
Greater Anglia	Stratford and Liverpool Street
c2c	Upminster and Fenchurch Street

 

[Surreytraveller]

These are the inter-available routes where Underground and National Rail tickets are valid on each other services.

Service	Between
Chiltern Railway	Amersham and Marylebone
Chiltern Railway	West Ruislip and South Ruislip
Great Northern	Finsbury Park and King's Cross and Moorgate
Thameslink	West Hampstead Thameslink, Elephant & Castle and London Bridge
London Northwestern Railway	Harrow & Wealdstone and Euston
Greater Anglia	Stratford and Liverpool Street
c2c	Upminster and Fenchurch Street

It doesn't say which part of the Underground National Rail tickets are valid on though:
For Marylebone read Baker Street
For Euston read Paddington
For Fenchurch Street read Tower Hill

 

[30907]

It doesn't say which part of the Underground National Rail tickets are valid on though:

For Euston read Paddington

Interesting - I would have expected Euston/Euston Square via Baker St.

 

[Haywain]

Interesting - I would have expected Euston/Euston Square via Baker St.

It's listing National Rail routes where underground tickets are also valid, so won't mention Baker Street or Euston Square.

 

[Surreytraveller]

It's listing National Rail routes where underground tickets are also valid, so won't mention Baker Street or Euston Square.

If its listing interavailable routes, it ought to list those routes tickets are interavailable on

 

[Haywain]

If its listing interavailable routes, it ought to list those routes tickets are interavailable on

I quite agree. However, I have no idea where the table that was posted was sourced from, and I am not aware of any such table that is in an official and public source.

 

[MrJeeves]

I am not aware of any such table that is in an official and public source.

The Through Ticketing Agreement (attached) released under FOI is probably the closest?

It contains vast detail about the particulars of interavailability per-ticket-type, and specifics on modes of travel and revenue apportionment. Extract is below:

1. INTERAVAILABLE ROUTES

1.1 The Schedule sets out provisions in respect of the following Interavailable Routes:

1. Amersham – Marylebone/Baker Street
2. Stratford – Liverpool Street
3. Upminster – Fenchurch Street/Tower Hill/Tower Gateway
4. Richmond – Gunnersbury
5. Harrow & Wealdstone – Queens Park
6. Stratford - Custom House
7. Finsbury Park – Kings Cross/Moorgate
8. Walthamstow/Tottenham Hale/Seven Sisters - London Zone 1
9. Kentish Town – Moorgate/London Bridge/Elephant & Castle
10. West Ruislip – South Ruislip

 

[Haywain]

The Through Ticketing Agreement (attached) released under FOI is probably the closest?

It contains vast detail about the particulars of interavailability per-ticket-type, and specifics on modes of travel and revenue apportionment. Extract is below:

I guess, but it's not really accessible and is rather outdated. The section that is in the internal Knowledgebase would be, ideally, available on NRE.

 

[infobleep]

I guess, but it's not really accessible and is rather outdated. The section that is in the internal Knowledgebase would be, ideally, available on NRE.

I wonder why it isn't. An oversight or as designed?

 

[Haywain]

I wonder why it isn't. An oversight or as designed?

No idea, but in reality being able to access such a document is a matter that won't trouble the vast majority of people away from this forum.

 

[miklcct]

Quote from internal industry guidance:

National Rail tickets valid on LU/DLR services​

Subject to tickets being valid between the appropriate stations or for the zones shown, National Rail singles, returns and Season Tickets are valid on LU /DLR services as shown below:

National Rail tickets which include validity	are also valid on LU / DLR services
Between Amersham and Harrow-on-the Hill and intermediately	between Amersham and Harrow- on-the-Hill and intermediately (Metropolitan Line)
Between Harrow-on-the-Hill and Marylebone	between Harrow-on-the-Hill and Baker Street , but not at any intermediate station (Metropolitan Line)
Between Barking and West Ham	between Barking and West Ham but not intermediately (District Line)
Between Barking and London Terminals	Between Barking and Tower Hill and intermediately only at West Ham (District Line) and also between Limehouse and Tower Gateway (DLR)
Between Upminster and Barking	between Upminster and Barking but not intermediately (District Line)
Between Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington	between Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington (Victoria Line)
Between Finsbury Park and London Terminals	between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross / St Pancras Und. but intermediately at Highbury & Islington only (Victoria Line / Piccadilly Line) and also between Kings Cross / St Pancras Und. and Moorgate (via Circle, Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City and Northern Lines, but intermediately at Old Street ONLY
Between West Hampstead Thameslink OR Kentish Town and London Thameslink Group stations (London St Pancras Intl, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, Elephant & Castle)	between West Hampstead / Kentish Town and Kings Cross-St Pancras Und / Farringdon / Blackfriars / London Bridge / Elephant & Castle via any reasonable route but NOT intermediately, and also NOT where tickets are routed ‘THAMESLINK ONLY’, ‘LDN NOT UNDERGROUND’, 'VIA CITY THAMESLINK' or ‘NOT UNDERGROUND’
Between Richmond and Stratford and intermediately at any North London Line station	by any reasonable route combination of LU services, but not for exit at any intermediate LU station.
Between West Brompton and Willesden Junction (via West London Line)	Via District and Bakerloo Lines interchanging at Paddington
Between Harrow & Wealdstone and Queens Park	between Harrow & Wealdstone and Queens Park and intermediately (Bakerloo Line)
Between Queens Park and Zone U1 or beyond	From Queens Park to Zone 1 or beyond (Bakerloo Line)
Between Stratford and London	between Stratford and Liverpool Street (Central Line) but not intermediately at Mile End or Bethnal Green
Between West Ruislip and South Ruislip	between West Ruislip and South Ruislip (Central Line)

Subject to tickets being valid between the appropriate stations or for the zones shown, National Rail singles and returns only (not Season Tickets) are valid on LU /DLR services as shown below:

National Rail tickets which include validity	are also valid on LU / DLR services
Between Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale/ Walthamstow Central and Zone U1 or beyond	Via the Victoria Line from Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale / Walthamstow Central to any station in Zones 1 to 3

 

[Argyle 1980]

“Anytime day single
Valid for one journey from
London Terminals
to London Undergrnd Zone 1-2”
It cost me £4.85 with railcard discount so it’s not a standard tube paper ticket i don’t think. I’m trying to travel Paddington - Liverpool St (AM peak) and then Liverpool St - Stratford (PM peak); I expected a paper ticket which stated “Valid for one journey from Paddington to Stratford” or the like, especially since it said “Break of Journey allowed” when I was purchasing it

Sorry of I'm wrong here but won't two separate peak Oyster journeys with railcard, Paddington to Liverpool £1.80 and Liverpool St to Stratford £2.20 still be cheaper than a paper ticket and no hassle about the boj?

 

[redreni]

Sorry of I'm wrong here but won't two separate peak Oyster journeys with railcard, Paddington to Liverpool £1.80 and Liverpool St to Stratford £2.20 still be cheaper than a paper ticket and no hassle about the boj?

An Oyster card costs £7 to obtain, though. And Network Railcard discounts can't be applied to it so it would depend what Railcard the OP has.