Northern Promise to Pay wording

[najaB]

In another thread it was noted that:

"you must pay this in full by cash only or you will incur a penalty fare" - is printed on the [promise to pay] ticket.

Which raises this question of what if you want to pay something other than the full fare in cash? What if I want to pay using a RTV, for example? Is that classed as a cash equivalent? A mix of cash and another payment method? Thoughts?

 

[CyrusWuff]

In another thread it was noted that:

Which raises this question of what if you want to pay something other than the full fare in cash? What if I want to pay using a RTV, for example? Is that classed as a cash equivalent? A mix of cash and another payment method? Thoughts?

You would hope that common sense would apply in such cases.

It could certainly be clearer on the vouchers, but my take is that a promise to pay is intended for use where you wish to pay using any method other than card.

 

[LowLevel]

In another thread it was noted that:

Which raises this question of what if you want to pay something other than the full fare in cash? What if I want to pay using a RTV, for example? Is that classed as a cash equivalent? A mix of cash and another payment method? Thoughts?

It's not part of the scope as that method of payment is not available on the machine anyway, and thus is covered by the NRCoT. Of course that also applies to Northern's promise to pays anyway (that said you get a lot of blank looks when people hand them over and pull out a bank card and you ask why they didn't just pay on the machine!).

 

[simonw]

You would hope that common sense would apply in such cases.

It could certainly be clearer on the vouchers, but my take is that a promise to pay is intended for use where you wish to pay using any method other than card.

Do you think it would be acceptable for someone want to pay by cheque, bankers draft, postal order etc?

 

[najaB]

You would hope that common sense would apply in such cases.

I expect that it usually does, but the wording doesn't say that you "may" be liable for a penalty fare but rather that you "will".

 

[gray1404]

Do you think it would be acceptable for someone want to pay by cheque, bankers draft, postal order etc?

Personal cheques are no longer accepted. So really it would be cash, card, rail travel voucher or warrant. See https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tickets-railcards-and-offers/buying-a-ticket/payment-methods/

 

[LYradial]

A promise to pay is to pay on your journey or at the destination.
cheques, etc are just another promise to pay in the future.

 

[najaB]

A promise to pay is to pay on your journey or at the destination.
cheques, etc are just another promise to pay in the future.

Cheques are, RTVs and vouchers aren't. I don't think rail warrants are either, but I'm not totally sure about their exact status.

 

[Haywain]

Do you think it would be acceptable for someone want to pay by cheque, bankers draft, postal order etc?

None of these are accepted methods of payment, so they are irrelevant (in the case of postal orders, not widely accepted).

 

[simonw]

None of these are accepted methods of payment, so they are irrelevant (in the case of postal orders, not widely accepted).

I was pointing out the flaw in cyrusruffs wording - his use of any

 

[Watershed]

I was pointing out the flaw in cyrusruffs wording - his use of any

I think to most of us it is obvious that @CyrusWuff was referring to any other payment method accepted by the railway.

 

[simonw]

I think to most of us it is obvious that @CyrusWuff was referring to any other payment method accepted by the railway.

And how is the passenger meant to know what the railway does and doesn't accept? This thread is after all about clarity.

 

[Watershed]

And how is the passenger meant to know what the railway does and doesn't accept? This thread is after all about clarity.

Accepted payment methods are listed on the National Rail Enquiries website, as linked to by @gray1404 in post #6 above. They aren't in question on this thread; this thread is about the PtP wording which claims that you "will" receive a PF if you don't pay by cash.

Northern are seemingly oblivious of the fact that there are other accepted payment methods on the railway.

 

[Haywain]

And how is the passenger meant to know what the railway does and doesn't accept?

Is the passenger coming here to find out?

 

[CyrusWuff]

One possible solution would be to use wording similar to that used on a PERTIS ticket:

This permit authorises the holder to travel during one journey from the station named and on the date shown providing that it is exchanged promptly for a valid ticket and any balance of fare due is paid at the first opportunity and in any case within TWO hours of the time stamped hereon. This permit is issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Obviously the bit about "balance of fare due is paid" is irrelevant and the NRCoC reference needs to be changed to National Rail Conditions of Travel.

 

[simonw]

Is the passenger coming here to find out?

What does that comment mean?

To spell it out. Northern 's wording is incorrect.

A poster on here stated it should be changed to

a promise to pay is intended for use where you wish to pay using any method other than card.

This is not correct. Swapping one set of words for another equally incorrect one isn't progress.

But hey, carry on as you all were.

 

[Spaceship323]

In another thread it was noted that:

Which raises this question of what if you want to pay something other than the full fare in cash? What if I want to pay using a RTV, for example? Is that classed as a cash equivalent? A mix of cash and another payment method? Thoughts?

Would you need to actually get a "promise to pay" if using a RTV, as you have, in effect, already paid?

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Bob Bedfordshire belongs to an obscure religious sect who eschew the use of any form of purchase card so only ever use cash. He used to live in Leighton Buzzard. He knew that if the ticket office was closed then he needed to pay on the train as the ticket machines are card only.
Bob has now moved and works at Sellafield. Today he has a dental appointment in Whitehaven. He goes to catch a train. He sees that the ticket machine is card only so boards the train intending to pay on board.
Has he been informed of the need to obtain a promise to pay?

Genuine question as I don't recall seeing any signs, albeit I use Whitehaven and not Sellafield and e-tickets so am not looking for signs regarding ticket acquisition.

 

[AlterEgo]

Would you need to actually get a "promise to pay" if using a RTV, as you have, in effect, already paid?

How would holding a RTV mean you have already paid?

 

[Spaceship323]

OK, I haven't already physically paid, but surely by issuing a RTV the Train Operating Company "owes" me that amount. I won't have that money in my hand until I cash in the voucher at my local ticket office, therefore the TOC already has my money
EDIT ~ if I never bother to cash in the voucher or use it towards buying a ticket the TOC will keep the money anyway

 

[najaB]

Would you need to actually get a "promise to pay" if using a RTV, as you have, in effect, already paid?

Because you can't use a RTV at a ticket machine, as far as I'm aware.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Would you need to actually get a "promise to pay" if using a RTV, as you have, in effect, already paid?

One of the main points of a promise to pay is proving where you started your journey, thereby preventing short-faring, so whether you wish to pay by cash, RTV or barter with a bag of carrots you will still need a promise to pay.

 

[Haywain]

OK, I haven't already physically paid, but surely by issuing a RTV the Train Operating Company "owes" me that amount. I won't have that money in my hand until I cash in the voucher at my local ticket office, therefore the TOC already has my money
EDIT ~ if I never bother to cash in the voucher or use it towards buying a ticket the TOC will keep the money anyway

What they have given you is a credit voucher that can be used as a method of payment for a range of products, so until you have exchanged it you haven't paid.

 

[Spaceship323]

So I do still need a "promise to pay", Thankyou @Haywain , @Bertie the bus ,@najaB, @AlterEgo

 

[johntea]

It's not part of the scope as that method of payment is not available on the machine anyway, and thus is covered by the NRCoT. Of course that also applies to Northern's promise to pays anyway (that said you get a lot of blank looks when people hand them over and pull out a bank card and you ask why they didn't just pay on the machine!).

I can't blame the passengers too much for that when many Northern guards will happily sell a ticket on board time after time with no questions asked via a card (or even Apple/Google pay in some cases!) purchase, they keep coming up with these various schemes and fines but when the staff often don't follow the guidelines then it can't really be expected for the passengers to do so 100% of the time either!

 

[janb]

Bob Bedfordshire belongs to an obscure religious sect who eschew the use of any form of purchase card so only ever use cash. He used to live in Leighton Buzzard. He knew that if the ticket office was closed then he needed to pay on the train as the ticket machines are card only.
Bob has now moved and works at Sellafield. Today he has a dental appointment in Whitehaven. He goes to catch a train. He sees that the ticket machine is card only so boards the train intending to pay on board.
Has he been informed of the need to obtain a promise to pay?

Genuine question as I don't recall seeing any signs, albeit I use Whitehaven and not Sellafield and e-tickets so am not looking for signs regarding ticket acquisition.

The good news is that Bob has always been a cautious member of the sect so he stops and reads the penalty fare notice at the entrance of Sellafield which tells him he must obtain a promise to pay if he is unable to purchase a ticket before boarding.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I can't blame the passengers too much for that when many Northern guards will happily sell a ticket on board time after time with no questions asked via a card (or even Apple/Google pay in some cases!) purchase, they keep coming up with these various schemes and fines but when the staff often don't follow the guidelines then it can't really be expected for the passengers to do so 100% of the time either!

Exactly

I've heard guards say that they can't not progress to reporting issues "because I've scanned the ticket and it makes a record and I'll have to explain why if I don't do it".

If that's the case, why can't there be a simple bit of reporting that captures the number of tickets sold on board from stations with ticket offices / TVMs and payment method of "not cash"? I'd be pretty confident that for some guards the number would be very, very low and for others it would be a lot higher. Hold them to account!

 

[skyhigh]

I've heard guards say that they can't not progress to reporting issues "because I've scanned the ticket and it makes a record and I'll have to explain why if I don't do it".

That's just an excuse really.