Future of the London Overground?

[TheGuy77]

The last time a new Overground line opened was between Liverpool Street - Cheshunt, Chingford and Enfield taken over from GA. But will there be any new lines?
I'm sure that they proposed a line Between Brentford-West Hampstead but apart from that what other lines do you think will (or want to) be added to the overground?
Maybe the TFL takeover of the Southern/SouthEastern lines will be part of the Overground?

 

[Dr Hoo]

What about Barking Riverside?

 

[deltic]

I would have thought the services to Dartford would be ideal for the London Overground treatment now we have a Labour mayor and Labour government and a transport minister who was previously TfL Commissioner.

 

[TheGuy77]

I would have thought the services to Dartford would be ideal for the London Overground treatment now we have a Labour mayor and Labour government and a transport minister who was previously TfL Commissioner.

Louise Haigh? TFL Commissioner? Something doesn't add up.

 

[PGAT]

I reckon if the suburban lines operated by Southeastern were to be taken over they would be treated as a different mode to the Overground but operated similarly

 

[deltic]

Louise Haigh? TFL Commissioner? Something doesn't add up.

Louise Haigh is Secretary of State, Peter Hendy is Minister of State

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think the Victoria to London Bridge service, increased to quarter hourly, could make an ideal Overground service.

In fact a lot of flows in central South London could be over grounded. Provided new interchanges are built in the right places. It'll make crossing South London by rail far more efficient.

I've also always dreamt of Thameslink being pruned back to Bedford to Brighton and turning the Snow Hill tunnel into an intensive Overground service connecting to the Great Northern Electrics route.

 

[Basil Jet]

In fact a lot of flows in central South London could be over grounded. Provided new interchanges are built in the right places. It'll make crossing South London by rail far more efficient.

The Turning South London Orange proposal concerned this, but seems to have gone nowhere since, but with the one party controlling Westminster and City Hall anything's possible.

Turning South London Orange: Reforming Suburban Rail to Support London’s Next Phase of Growth

London is experiencing growing pains. The need to transport an ever-larger workforce has seen overcrowding on the rail network in London and the South East double over the last twenty years. By...

centreforlondon.org

 

[JonathanH]

I've also always dreamt of Thameslink being pruned back to Bedford to Brighton and turning the Snow Hill tunnel into an intensive Overground service connecting to the Great Northern Electrics route.

Where do Cambridge and Peterborough services run to in that dream, and how they run 12 coach trains on those routes?

 

[TheGuy77]

I've always thought about the local commuter lines to/from/around London could become all part of a new 'Network South East', with Thameslink/Elizabeth Line being merged to form the 'Crossrail' franchise.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Where do Cambridge and Peterborough services run to in that dream, and how they run 12 coach trains on those routes?

I would just put them back to King’s Cross.

 

[CBlue]

I would just put them back to King’s Cross.

"just" back into kings cross?

Part of the reason these services run through the core is because there's no room at kings cross to terminate them

 

[Sad Sprinter]

"just" back into kings cross?

Part of the reason these services run through the core is because there's no room at kings cross to terminate them

Well, it was a dream for a reason!

 

[Transilien]

I've always thought about the local commuter lines to/from/around London could become all part of a new 'Network South East', with

I think network south east is an inappropriate brand because it covers too many different types of services across too large an area. For example, London to Weymouth is practically an inter-city service with the distance it covers and it makes no sense for it to be grouped together with suburban trains in London.

 

[TheGuy77]

I think network south east is an inappropriate brand because it covers too many different types of services across too large an area. For example, London to Weymouth is practically an inter-city service with the distance it covers and it makes no sense for it to be grouped together with suburban trains in London.

That's true. What about this?
Overground - Local Surburban Lines around London
Crossrail - Elizabeth Line, Thameslink and the proposed Crossrail 2 and Croydon-Stratford Link
Remaining lines (like SWR's fast/regional services) would use the same name.

 

[flitwickbeds]

I think network south east is an inappropriate brand because it covers too many different types of services across too large an area. For example, London to Weymouth is practically an inter-city service with the distance it covers and it makes no sense for it to be grouped together with suburban trains in London.

London to Weymouth = approx 120 miles
Peterborough to Brighton = approx 120 miles

 

[RT4038]

London to Weymouth = approx 120 miles
Peterborough to Brighton = approx 120 miles

And you know that those two are not comparable - apples with apples please. Peterborough to London has mainline trains, and Peterborough to Brighton at 120 miles is not travelling to or from London, but is a niche journey in the grand scheme of things.

 

[PGAT]

Also Peterborough trains go to Horsham and not Brighton.

 

[SynthD]

Does Overground-isation need to happen with the current plans to give mayors more power? If the London mayor was given a say in the future GBR concessions/contracts, then the metro services could stay with the branding of the other mainline services.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

London to Weymouth = approx 120 miles
Peterborough to Brighton = approx 120 miles

1) Peterborough to Brighton trains do not exist.
2) Peterborough to Horsham trains are effectively Peterborough London and London Horsham trains smashed together to resolve capacity issues at King’s Cross. Neither of these two really rather separate operations come close to 120 miles.

 

[Transilien]

London to Weymouth = approx 120 miles
Peterborough to Brighton = approx 120 miles

I wouldn’t classify Peterborough to Brighton as suburban even if it was a service.

 

[Basil Jet]

I think network south east is an inappropriate brand because it covers too many different types of services across too large an area. For example, London to Weymouth is practically an inter-city service with the distance it covers and it makes no sense for it to be grouped together with suburban trains in London.

Do you also think Scotrail is an inappropriate brand because it covers too many different types of services across too large an area?

 

[TheGuy77]

Speaking of the Overground, perhaps we could take some of the liens over from Chiltern or the local lines or Southwestern

 

[JonathanH]

Speaking of the Overground, perhaps we could take some of the liens over from Chiltern or the local lines or Southwestern

What for? Just changing the branding and putting services on the underground map isn't sufficient reason to switch the operation.

There needs to be a genuine difference which putting lines into the London Overground operation needs to deliver reflecting infrastructure constraints.

 

[TheGuy77]

What for? Just changing the branding and putting services on the underground map isn't sufficient reason to switch the operation.

There needs to be a genuine difference which putting lines into the London Overground operation needs to deliver reflecting infrastructure constraints.

Anything Overground is publicly owned, which means that the remaining regional/intercity lines would be the private TOCs' main duty.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2024 ==

https://assets.londonist.com/uploads/2016/09/overgroundbig.jpeg

I have found this map which could show what the Overground could look like.

 

[JonathanH]

Anything Overground is publicly owned, which means that the remaining regional/intercity lines would be the private TOCs' main duty.

The government policy is to make all TOC services 'publicly owned' so that distinction isn't a consideration. The difference with Overground is TfL specifying the service rather than DfT (or GBR in the future).

 

[Transilien]

The main benefit of Overground branding would be a truly integrated transport system in London. London Overground could be operated by GBR so operationally on a day to day basis nothing much would have changed. The only difference would be that TFL would have control over ticketing and the long term planning. When TFL takes over a former franchised service they have proven that they can improve the quality to something like the Underground. So there is no better opportunity than now with GBR coming in to rebrand and hand over long term planning to TFL as there will be rebranding all over the network to GBR anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

The only difference would be that TFL would have control over ticketing and the long term planning.

TfL's system is already used for all ticketing on services in London. Indeed, its ticketing is being pushed well outside London.

No one can properly answer the question about whether the needs of Londoners or those from further afield should dominate on those bits of infrastructure which are used by both Londoners and those travelling to and from London.

 

[Sprigibax]

Now that all the Overground lines are getting their own identities, from looking at a tube map, you'd probably think the Elizabeth line was part of the Overground, and maybe it should be. A lot of it is overground, and as for the underground parts, well, 55% of the tube is overground anyway. Although this would probably be a pretty expensive and un-needed rebrand, so it's probably unlikely to happen.

As for expanding the Overground, perhaps TfL could take over the Southern Watford Junction - East Croydon service. Now that it's been cut back from Milton Keynes it's mostly in London, and it runs alongside the Lioness and Mildmay lines for some part of it, so it seems sensible. An idea of mine (if the Croxley rail link ever goes ahead) would be to create an outer-London link service, running from Aylesbury and Chesham to Watford Junction and then on to St Albans, taking over the Abbey line. This could be operated by London Overground, since it would run alongside the Metropolitan line for some parts, but then again, it wouldn't enter London, so maybe it could be run by Chiltern.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Now that all the Overground lines are getting their own identities, from looking at a tube map, you'd probably think the Elizabeth line was part of the Overground, and maybe it should be. A lot of it is overground, and as for the underground parts, well, 55% of the tube is overground anyway. Although this would probably be a pretty expensive and un-needed rebrand, so it's probably unlikely to happen.

As for expanding the Overground, perhaps TfL could take over the Southern Watford Junction - East Croydon service. Now that it's been cut back from Milton Keynes it's mostly in London, and it runs alongside the Lioness and Mildmay lines for some part of it, so it seems sensible. An idea of mine (if the Croxley rail link ever goes ahead) would be to create an outer-London link service, running from Aylesbury and Chesham to Watford Junction and then on to St Albans, taking over the Abbey line. This could be operated by London Overground, since it would run alongside the Metropolitan line for some parts, but then again, it wouldn't enter London, so maybe it could be run by Chiltern.

I've often thought that as well. Which is why they should have kept it as Crossrail to properly distinguish from the Overground.