In many European countries. combined first- and second-class carriages had compartments for first class, and open seats for second class. In the UK, of course, compartments are designated with a K and open seats with O. I understand that combined carriages in the UK were either fully compartments (CK) or fully open seats (CO) - but how would an imagined carriage with compartments in first class and open seats in second class be designated in the UK? Would it still be a CK? Or a CKO?
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What would a carriage like this be called in the UK?
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At least some SR Bulleid LH brakes were brake + two compos + 4 open bays named "semi open brake third" for third class only; I /think/ some might have had first class compos while the open bays were third/second; not know how they were coded.
There were also BR SR multiple units - 4Cig driving trailers for just one example - that had first class compo (some later downgraded) + standard class open bays; these were simply called DTC no suffix. 4Vep is another.
I am sure others will think of several other GB examples with or without exotic code letters.
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Sure there were “semi-open seconds” at some point (SsO?) so analogous to that.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Semi-Open would be the LNER/BR designation for part compartments/part open saloon.
The LNER had some SFO - semi-open First with some 2+1 seating and compartments. The Leeds-Glasgow in the LNER era used one to add dining accommodation and First Class seating without having to add two extra carriages, just one.
The Silver Jubilee also had such a vehicle as one half of a twin.
In the more modern era, the Class 442s had a DTFsoL, originally a DTCsoL. These had six compartments of six seats and a small open saloon of 14 seats arranged 2+2. Originally the open saloon was Standard Class but very soon after entering traffic BR upclassed it to First Class after complaints of insufficient First Class seating in the peaks.
Gloster
Veteran Member
There were three Lounge First Compartments (LFK) that emerged as rebuilds of Mark 1 FK in 1967, but only lasted until 1974-1981. They were not true Open and Compartment coaches as the partitions had been removed between two pairs of compartments, but that to the corridor was left. Four swivelling seats were installed in each large compartment, but the seats against the remaining partitions were left.
Source: Parkin’s book on Mark 1 coaches.
Source: Parkin’s book on Mark 1 coaches.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Wouldn't the simplest possible description be: Semi Open Composite?
themiller
Established Member
At Telford Steam Railway there is an ex-XP64 coach which has a mixture of conventional first class compartments and first class lounges with both conventional seats and swivel chairs.It is numbered SC14901 but I don’t know if it was given a new designation as it was an experimental configuration.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Class 423/4VEP in the later years definitely had driving coaches that had a number of compartments in the front (cab) end- one of which was standard class, the rest first. The inner end of those coaches had open standard class seating in a 3+2 layout. These remained in this state until withdrawal on South West Trains, which was great for Freebie-firsts when they were subbed in for 455s on Standard Class only services!
The units operated by Connex South Central had the internal walls which formed the compartments removed, so had the regular 3+2 in the 'inner' half with the aisle moving to one side halfway down the coach. No idea what the designations became in this case though!
Snow1964
Established Member
I remember doing a merrymaker excursion on an old set of southern region MK14 which had composite brake coach (forget configuration, might have been 2 fist compartments and 3 standard compartments, guard compartment, van) think these had originally been for portion trains like Atlantic coast Express, I believe some might have originally been tri-composites (first, second, third class for boat and named trains)
As built the 4CIG and 4BIG units had 4 compartments in their driving cars, all had one set up as 8 seat second class, and 7 as 6 seat first class. The first class was by the driving cabs and because of the side corridor to compartments there was an odd row of 4 seats backing onto compartment wall facing a partition. The other second class was open saloon.
The 4VEPs also had 4 compartments (but at non cab end) in each driving car, but as they had more seats, all 8 were First class
The class 442s as built had 6 First class compartments of 6 and a small standard class open area of 14 seats, so these also had composite vehicles. (this was fairly quickly converted to extra First class). From memory only 12 of 24 units were built with double guards van and composites, one of these were soon converted into extra seating to replace the lost standard class. Years later the other van area was converted to a snug
As built the 4CIG and 4BIG units had 4 compartments in their driving cars, all had one set up as 8 seat second class, and 7 as 6 seat first class. The first class was by the driving cabs and because of the side corridor to compartments there was an odd row of 4 seats backing onto compartment wall facing a partition. The other second class was open saloon.
The 4VEPs also had 4 compartments (but at non cab end) in each driving car, but as they had more seats, all 8 were First class
The class 442s as built had 6 First class compartments of 6 and a small standard class open area of 14 seats, so these also had composite vehicles. (this was fairly quickly converted to extra First class). From memory only 12 of 24 units were built with double guards van and composites, one of these were soon converted into extra seating to replace the lost standard class. Years later the other van area was converted to a snug
norbitonflyer
Established Member
"semi-open" seems to be the usual way the Southern Region examples (2EPB, 2HAP, 4VEP, 4BIG/CIG) were designated (eg DTSso, DTCsoL). 14901 was a "Lounge Corridor First" (LFK). Note that the open "lounge" area was nevertheless accessed from a side corridor (which is what the "K" signifies).
You will not normally find a "K" (side corridor) and "L" (lavatory) suffix together.
"L" is usually assumed for hauled stock if it has an "O" or "K" suffix
"K" is assumed for compartment MU stock if there is an "L" suffix.
The default (no suffix) is non-corridor compartment stock
You will not normally find a "K" (side corridor) and "L" (lavatory) suffix together.
"L" is usually assumed for hauled stock if it has an "O" or "K" suffix
"K" is assumed for compartment MU stock if there is an "L" suffix.
The default (no suffix) is non-corridor compartment stock
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Davester50
Member
14901 isn't an XP64 coach, just a bog standard Mark 1 conversion.
themiller
Established Member
Sorry, I meant that it ran with the XP64 rake as mentioned in the cited Modern Railways article from the Telford Steam Railway website. I also understand from searches that the remainder of the XP64 coaches weren’t as intended due to time or cost issues at the time so they were more mk1 than mk2.
Gloster
Veteran Member
No. A composite is a coach with more than one class of seating in it: First and Second nowadays, but in olden times (pre-1956, except on boat trains) any combination of First, Second and Third. Whether it is Open or Compartment seating is a separate matter, but virtually all will have just one or other type of internal arrangement, but only a few odd coaches, as covered above, had both.
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